Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 615 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By litwin
#15275926
QatzelOk wrote:Do you know Putin personally, or are you just recycling the memes from MSM?

Exactly. MSM-recycling.

Your voice simply magnifies the lies that we are told every day by our oligarch-owned press.

Your fake opinions belong in the compost bin.

"NATO is a threat to Russian colonialism, not to Russian security." "If I install a security alarm in my house, it doesn't harm my neighbour unless he plans a burglary.”
~ Prime Minister Kaja Kallas
#15275930
, Kishida's government has brought back the descriptions of the islands as "inherent territories of Japan" that have been "under illegal occupation" by Russia. The islands form the southernmost end of the Kuril archipelago.

#15275943
Man, Ukraine War is perhaps the largest sunk cost fallacy of the 21st century to date. Majority of Russian establishment, elite and leadership understand by now that continuing the war with Ukraine is pointless but they just can't stop. I know that there are more factors at play like keeping Putin and his regime in power but even people who are interested in pure power gain also understand that the war itself is detrimental to the survival of the regime and the longer it gets, the harder it will be later on.

Either a military loss to an economic collapse, it is even harder to say which is worse, probably the later since then the survival of regime is very low in that case.
User avatar
By litwin
#15275970
JohnRawls wrote:Man, Ukraine War is perhaps the largest sunk cost fallacy of the 21st century to date. Majority of Russian establishment, elite and leadership understand by now that continuing the war with Ukraine is pointless but they just can't stop. I know that there are more factors at play like keeping Putin and his regime in power but even people who are interested in pure power gain also understand that the war itself is detrimental to the survival of the regime and the longer it gets, the harder it will be later on.

Either a military loss to an economic collapse, it is even harder to say which is worse, probably the later since then the survival of regime is very low in that case.

did you miss the biggest development ? kadyrov vs. utkin , this is more and more like 1917 N2
ps


#15276021
Stupid fuckers blew up the Kahovka Dam. The problem with that besides it being a terrorist act is that the cooling for the Zaporozja reactors is from the same lake. If water levels drop enough then the cooling will not be possible so unless they are shut off then boom and Chernobyl 2.0 x2 as I wrote before. The reason I know this is because my dad employed people from that nuclear plant who came here as refugees who were responsible exactly for water quality and cooling systems.
#15276026
JohnRawls wrote:Stupid fuckers

Ukrainians?


:)
#15276037
ingliz wrote:Ukrainians?


:)


Yeah, lets pretend that 2 days after Ukranians officially started the counter offensive they also blew up the Dam. Come on, who will believe that. Accidental collapse due to Ukranian shelling and Russians blowing up parts of it after retreat seems very unlikely due to the timing. It has been fully mined by the Russians for around a year now also.

In other news, the main cooling tank will last 2 days and the reserve pond will last 1-2 months after that Zaporozija nuclear power plant will run out of water to cool the reactors even though they are stopped. ( Stopped means that the reaction is slow but it still needs cooling )
#15276039
Just asking here for clarification @ingliz, Is it fine for NATO to intervene if the Zaporozia nuclear power plant reactors melt or start melting due to absence of cooling?
#15276056
@JohnRawls

Why would the Russians destroy the well-fortified defensive positions and ammunition stores they've spent months building?

clarification

As to NATO attacking Russian troops, directly

It can do as it pleases, but you'd best be prepared to kiss your arse goodbye; Russia has already said it would launch everything it has (Nuclear, biological, and chemical).


:)
#15276058
ingliz wrote:Why would the Russians destroy the well-fortified defensive positions and ammunition stores they've spent months building?). [...] :)

Enlightenment, intelligence and doing reasonable things .. are not Putin's forte. ;)
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By noemon
#15276060
BBC wrote:What we know about Nova Kakhovka dam incident
An image shows Nova Kakhovka Dam, amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine, in Kherson region, Ukraine, June 6, 2023.

A huge dam in the Russian-controlled area of southern Ukraine has been destroyed, unleashing a flood of water.

Ukraine's military and Nato have accused Russia of blowing up the dam, while Russia has blamed Ukraine.

Thousands of people are being evacuated from communities in the surrounding areas, with fears that any flooding could be catastrophic.

Here's what we know so far.

Where is the dam?
The Kakhovka Hydroelectric Power Plant is in the city of Nova Kakhovka in Ukraine's Kherson region, which is currently under Russian occupation.

It was built in the Soviet era and is one of six dams that sit along the Dnipro river, which stretches all the way from the very north of the country into the sea in the south.

It's huge - locals call it the Kakhovka Sea as you cannot see the other bank in certain places. The dam holds water equal to the Great Salt Lake in the US state of Utah, according to Reuters.

What happened?
Stills and video show a massive breach in the dam, with water surging through it and flooding downstream in the direction of Kherson.

It's unclear when exactly the dam was first damaged, but satellite images verified by the BBC suggest its condition has deteriorated over a number of days.

A road across the dam appears to be damaged from 2 June, but there does not seem to be a change to the flow of the water until 6 June when the breach of the wall and collapse of nearby buildings can be clearly seen. It is currently unclear whether the damage to the road is linked to the 6 June breach.

Satellite images show damage to the dam before the breach on 6 June
While it is unclear how extensive the flooding downstream will be, there are fears it could be devastating for settlements in a critical zone, home to about 16,000 people.

Images from Nova Kakhova show buildings surrounded by floodwaters and even swans paddling around a local government office.


People living in low lying parts of the city of Kherson, less than 50 miles downstream, have been warned to evacuate as quickly as possible and seek shelter on higher ground.

The head of the Kherson region, Oleksandr Prokudin, told Ukrainian TV this morning that eight villages had been fully or completely flooded already, with more expected to be flooded.

Ukrainian hydro power dam operator UkrHydroEnerho said the station was "fully destroyed" and could not be restored.

The river has also been contaminated with 150 tonnes of industrial lubricant, said President Volodymyr Zelensky, and another 300 tonnes was at risk of leaking.

Has it been attacked?
It's not yet clear what caused the breach in the dam, but Ukraine's military has accused Russia of deliberately blowing it up. This seems plausible, as Moscow may have feared that Ukrainian forces would use the road over the dam to get troops across the river into Russian-held territory, as part of a counter-offensive.

But Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov rejected Russian involvement, and instead blamed Ukraine, calling it an act of "sabotage" that would deprive the Crimean peninsula - an area annexed by Russia in 2014 - of water.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia's claims have been verified by the BBC.

The dam is very important and serves a number of purposes.

It holds back a vast reservoir that supplies water to a host of communities upstream. Farmers rely on the water to grow their crops, and the breach could impact tens of thousands of people if it recedes far enough.

The dam also provides cooling water to the nuclear power station at Zaporizhzhia, around 100 miles upstream, which is under Russian control and relies on the reservoir.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said there was no immediate nuclear safety risk but it was monitoring the situation.

It later said in a statement that if the dam did fall below 12.7m, the lowest level at which water can still be pumped upstream to Zaporizhzhia, there were alternative water sources to keep the nuclear plant cool, including a large cooling pond next to the site.

A map showing the Zaporizhzhia power plant and the Kakhova dam in Ukraine
But as well as that, the dam is a vital channel carrying water from the Dnipro to Russian-occupied Crimea, meaning water supplies there are likely to be affected.

After Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, Ukraine blocked a channel carrying water from Nova Kakhovka, triggering a water crisis on the peninsula.

Russian forces reopened the channel soon after last year's full-scale invasion. But without the dam, dropping water levels could once again jeopardise the flow of water along the channel.

Russia has previously carried out several attacks on dams throughout Ukraine since the invasion, causing widespread flooding and disrupting power supplies.
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By noemon
#15276064
Telegraph wrote:
West knew of Ukrainian plot to sabotage Nord Stream II ‘months before attack’
Leaked Pentagon documents state the Biden administration was informed of Kyiv’s plan through a European ally

By
Rozina Sabur,
WASHINGTON EDITOR
6 June 2023 • 6:03pm
The US and Europe knew about a Ukrainian plot to bomb the Nord Stream pipeline months before the attack, it has emerged.

The Biden administration was informed of the plot by the Ukrainian military by a “close” European ally last summer.

The intelligence was among a tranche of classified Pentagon documents leaked by US airman Jack Teixeira on the online gaming platform Discord and obtained by the Washington Post.

It is the first time Ukraine’s military has been convincingly linked to the September 2022 attack, which Nato condemned as an act of sabotage.

The underwater explosions destroyed caused massive leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, leaving only one of the four pipelines supplying gas from Russia to Germany intact.

Ukraine has always denied any involvement, even blaming Russia for a “terrorist attack” against the EU at the time.

tmg.video.placeholder.alt P0Vx0Nbhu-s
The revelation is likely to prompt a furious response from Russia after US officials suggested Moscow was responsible for what Joe Biden called “a deliberate act of sabotage”.

It will also test the strength of Europe’s commitments to Ukraine, particularly in Germany, which imported half its natural gas from Russia prior to the invasion and had long championed the pipeline.

While Russia’s state-owned Gazprom has a 51 per cent stake in Nord Stream, Western energy companies, including from Germany, France and the Netherlands, invested billions in the project.

Intelligence collected by a European spy agency suggested the Ukrainian military planned for a small team of divers who reported directly to Gen. Valerii Zaluzhnyi, the commander in chief of the Ukrainian armed forces, to attack the pipeline.

Mr Zaluzhnyi was put in charge of the plot so that Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, could have plausible deniability, the intelligence report said.

The European agency shared the plan with the CIA in June 2022. It was deemed credible enough for the CIA to share the report with Germany and other European countries last June, according to the Washington Post.

The newspaper said it was not revealing which European country uncovered the plot as well as some aspects of the intelligence at the request of government officials.


However it said the plot was not compiled by rogue operatives, but to be conducted by a six-person team of Ukrainian special forces.

It is unclear whether the Biden administration appealed to Kyiv to halt the bomb plan.

The report was based on information obtained from an individual in Ukraine. While it could not be immediately corroborated, key details of the plot lined up with the eventual attack and revealed the West had evidence to suspect Kyiv for nearly a year.

They include the fact that the Ukrainian special forces planned to use false identities to rent a boat and dive to the floor of the Baltic Sea to damage the pipeline.

In addition to oxygen, the team planned to bring helium, which is recommended for especially deep dives.

An investigation by German law enforcement has reportedly concluded that six skilled divers using fake passports rented a sailing yacht in September, and planted explosives that severed the pipelines.
By Rich
#15276065
Ukraine's deputy defense minister said Ukraine could be in Crimea by Christmas. Its now clear there was zero I repeat zero chance of this happening. There's been other things like the claim that it was a Russian missile that struck Poland. There's the insistence on calling virtually every a battle an attempted Russian attack, even when its abundantly obvious that its the Ukrainians who are attacking. I'm sorry we have to accept that Ukraine's leadership are pathological liars.

We have also to accept that large number of Ukrainians and a large number of western liberals are eager to swallow these lies no matter how preposterous. The Ukrainians just can't be trusted on the matter of the Dam. Most Liberals seem to be too stupid to consider that it may not have been deliberately destroyed by either side, that it may have suffered repeated damage, from attacks by both side. Neither side has been able and willing to repair it and this combined with the build up of water pressure led to a catastrophic failure. I don't know what happened, but until conclusive proof to the contry appears that would seem to be the sensible default presumption.
#15276067
Rich wrote:Ukraine's deputy defense minister said Ukraine could be in Crimea by Christmas. Its now clear there was zero I repeat zero chance of this happening. There's been other things like the claim that it was a Russian missile that struck Poland. There's the insistence on calling virtually every a battle an attempted Russian attack, even when its abundantly obvious that its the Ukrainians who are attacking. I'm sorry we have to accept that Ukraine's leadership are pathological liars.

We have also to accept that large number of Ukrainians and a large number of western liberals are eager to swallow these lies no matter how preposterous. The Ukrainians just can't be trusted on the matter of the Dam. Most Liberals seem to be too stupid to consider that it may not have been deliberately destroyed by either side, that it may have suffered repeated damage, from attacks by both side. Neither side has been able and willing to repair it and this combined with the build up of water pressure led to a catastrophic failure. I don't know what happened, but until conclusive proof to the contry appears that would seem to be the sensible default presumption.

The road across the dam seems to have been damaged on 2 June (probably by Russia to slow the anticipated Ukrainian counter-offensive). Nothing changed since then until the dam suddenly failed about four days later. I suspect that your explanation is probably the most plausible one, @Rich. This is basically just a snafu by both sides. It would make no sense for either side to deliberately blow the dam.
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By Wels
#15276071
US has intelligence confirming Russia’s guilt in Kakhovka HPP bombing - NBC

At the same time, NBC clarifies that the administration of US President Joe Biden is already working to declassify the intelligence and make it public today, June 6.
#15276089
@Wels


'You believe the Americans?

The US said they had intelligence showing that the Russians blew up Nord Stream 2, and it was bollocks. So why do you think this is any different, anything more than a desperate attempt to keep Western Europe onside?
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