[Rugoz]

I'm sorry we have to accept that Ukraine's leadership are pathological liars.

The Russian MoD writes high fantasy every day of the week.

Ukrainian claims are actually somewhat reasonable and consistent, just read them as KIA+WIA instead of KIA for example.

If it's Russian claims vs Ukrainian claims, I believe the latter every time. And you're a fucking joke if you don't.

The road across the dam seems to have been damaged on 2 June (probably by Russia to slow the anticipated Ukrainian counter-offensive). Nothing changed since then until the dam suddenly failed about four days later.

We've seen in this war how difficult it is to destroy infrastructure unless you literally plant explosives at a structural weak point. Russia controlled the dam and they had the means to destroy it.

Oh wait. You mean Russia blew up the road and accidentially also blew up the dam in the process. Granted, that sounds like something Russians would do .

[Wels]

@Wels
'You believe the Americans?
The US said they had intelligence showing that the Russians blew up Nord Stream 2, [...]

Not always, but compared to russian media?

"This Russian Ka-52 attack chopper crew thought that they have targeted and destroyed Leopard 2 tanks (you read this correctly).
Even a semi-professional can clearly see that this are agricultural harvester and sprayer machines."



Whatever, i think cutting Nord Stream II served all parties, from Russia to the US, and maybe even Germany.
Think of it as a medicative shock.
i just wish the same happened with China

[litwin]

[Rich]

:lol:

The Russian MoD writes high fantasy every day of the week.

Ukrainian claims are actually somewhat reasonable and consistent, just read them as KIA+WIA instead of KIA for example.

If it's Russian claims vs Ukrainian claims, I believe the latter every time. And you're a fucking joke if you don't.

You're the fucking joke presuming that we must accept either Russian or Ukrainian claims in every instance. I find you a particular fucking joke in the case of the missile landing on Polish soil where you choose to believe the Ukrainians over NATO, in your insistence on always disbelieving Russia.

But the accuracy of the Russian MOD is totally beside the point. Russia s not our ally. We are not arming and financing Russia. Russia does not owe us the truth. We are democracies, entering into this conflict as Ukraine's non belligerent allies. We should as democracies demand Ukraine's honesty in return, as we should demand honesty from our own governments on military conflicts.

Note I don't blame Ukraine's leadership for this, because we have incentivised them to lie and engage in fantasy.

[Rugoz]

:lol: You're the fucking joke presuming that we must accept either Russian or Ukrainian claims in every instance.

Where did I even say that.

I said if it's Russian vs. Ukrainian claims, meaning no other information available.

I find you a particular fucking joke in the case of the missile landing on Polish soil where you choose to believe the Ukrainians over NATO, in your insistence on always disbelieving Russia.

I only said that because I thought such a large crater could not have been caused by an air defense missile (alone). I admit I was probably mistaken about that, since S300 missiles carry big warheads.

Besides, the S300 was fired to intercept a Russian missile, hence it was not a particularly outrageous claim by Ukraine (Zelensky later switched from "it was a Russian missile" to "we don't know what happened").

[litwin]

Not always, but compared to russian media?

"This Russian Ka-52 attack chopper crew thought that they have targeted and destroyed Leopard 2 tanks (you read this correctly).
Even a semi-professional can clearly see that this are agricultural harvester and sprayer machines."



Whatever, i think cutting Nord Stream II served all parties, from Russia to the US, and maybe even Germany.
Think of it as a medicative shock.
i just wish the same happened with China

is a New October coup on the way ? GRU Prigozhin blames Moscow Ministry of War for not protecting Belgorod. “I give the Ministry of Defense two weeks to defend Belgorod .

Utkin looks like a new Lenin to me, do you agree?

[litwin]

:lol: You're the fucking joke presuming that we must accept either Russian or Ukrainian claims in every instance. I find you a particular fucking joke in the case of the missile landing on Polish soil where you choose to believe the Ukrainians over NATO, in your insistence on always disbelieving Russia.

But the accuracy of the Russian MOD is totally beside the point. Russia s not our ally. We are not arming and financing Russia. Russia does not owe us the truth. We are democracies, entering into this conflict as Ukraine's non belligerent allies. We should as democracies demand Ukraine's honesty in return, as we should demand honesty from our own governments on military conflicts.

Note I don't blame Ukraine's leadership for this, because we have incentivised them to lie and engage in fantasy.

THE HORDE RUNS OUT OFF CASH ?





PS

Kudos to the guy in the nirvana t shirt
He has been heard saying "Nevermind" to everybody at the gathering...

[litwin]

Not always, but compared to russian media?

"This Russian Ka-52 attack chopper crew thought that they have targeted and destroyed Leopard 2 tanks (you read this correctly).
Even a semi-professional can clearly see that this are agricultural harvester and sprayer machines."



Whatever, i think cutting Nord Stream II served all parties, from Russia to the US, and maybe even Germany.
Think of it as a medicative shock.
i just wish the same happened with China

[noemon]

Russia floundering in ‘mud of lies’ over Kakhovka dam destruction, Ukraine tells UN
Security council meeting discusses disaster as US, UK and French representatives call for an investigation

Russia’s UN envoy was accused of floundering in a “mud of lies” after he claimed at an emergency session of the security council that Ukraine destroyed Kakhovka dam in a “war crime”.

Sergiy Kyslytsya, the Ukraine envoy to the UN, said it was typical of Russia to blame the victim for its own crimes, pointing out Russia has been in control of the dam for more than a year and it was physically impossible to blow it up by shelling. He said the dam was mined by the Russian occupiers and they blew it up. He accused Russia of “floundering again in the mud of lies”.

“By resorting to scorched earth tactics, or in this case to flooded earth tactics, the Russian occupiers have effectively recognised that the captured territory does not belong to them, and they are not able to hold these lands,” Kyslytsya said.

Neither the French, US or British representatives at the UN directly said there was evidence of Russian responsibility, but called for an investigation and insisted their support for Ukraine was unwavering.

Outside the UN security council chamber, the deputy US ambassador to the UN, Robert Wood, said: “We’re not certain at all, we hope to have more information in the coming days.

“But, I mean, come on … why would Ukraine do this to its own territory and people, flood its land, force tens of thousands of people to leave their homes – it doesn’t make sense.”

Vasily Nebenzya, the Russian envoy to the UN, claimed Ukraine had committed an unthinkable crime. His main supportive evidence was an article in the Washington Post in which Andriy Kovalchuk, Ukraine’s southern commander, claimed Ukraine had tested strikes on the dam.

Nebenzya said the west was responsible for a coordinated disinformation campaign full of flawed logic that “reeks of schizophrenia and not of a latent variety”. He said the attack was part of an effort to distract from Ukraine’s clearly bogged down military offensive that was failing to meet its objectives.

“We are deeply bewildered that the UN secretariat repeatedly fails to condemn the attacks perpetrated by the Kyiv regime citing insufficient information. The secretary’s leadership does not hesitate to replicate politicised conclusions that suggest all such crimes are as a result of Russia’s actions in Ukraine,” he said.

Martin Griffiths, the UN humanitarian envoy, did not accuse Russia of responsibility for the humanitarian disaster, saying investigations would be held, but he asserted that the incident would not have occurred if it were not for Russia’s invasion.

The UN “has no access to independent information on the circumstances that led to the destruction in the hydroelectric power plants”, he said, but added that the destruction of the dam was one of the most significant pieces of damage to Ukrainian infrastructure since the war started and would have grave consequences for thousands of people, as well as the environment.

An emergency response was under way to help 16,000 people, Griffiths said, pointing out that the dam was a key source of support to agriculture for south Kherson as well as livestock, and its destruction would be a massive blow to food production and clean water supply into Crimea.

He warned that the risks of mine and explosive ordnance contamination had increased as fast-moving water washed them into areas previously assessed as safe, thus putting people in further, unpredictable danger.

[Rugoz]

@noemon

@ your emphasis.

I mean, who has been bombing Ukrainian infrastructure for months? Not Russia, right?

As if the destruction of the dam represents some kind of red line that Russia wouldn't cross. As if it is even worse than what preceded it.

[noemon]

Earlier, Ukrainian forces said they witnessed Russian soldiers being swept up in flood waters after the Nova Khakovka dam burst, adding that many were killed or injured in the aftermath of the dam collapse.

“No one on the Russian side was able to get away. All the regiments the Russians had on that side were flooded,” Capt Andrei Pidlisnyi told CNN.

The Ukranian/Western reporting reeks of schizophrenia indeed for a while now.

Ukraine's summer offensive has failed to materialise, its Bakhtum position has been destroyed, its incursions into Russia proper have failed to undercut morale on the other side. So Ukraine needs to reposition itself now and eventually justify its own failure(blaming the dam is a potential out) before more westerners start getting cold feet.

Ukraine should start seriously considering how peace with Russia is going to look like instead of grandstanding before a western audience.

[Rugoz]

Ukraine should start seriously considering how peace with Russia is going to look like instead of grandstanding before a western audience.

The sheer arrogance. Incredible. Is that how you want Greece to be treated if Turkey invades?

[noemon]

The sheer arrogance. Incredible. Is that how you want Greece to be treated if Turkey invades?

You are projecting your arrogance. Greece is not a Turkish-speaking former province up until less than 10 years ago, nor is it a country whose entire territory was literally gifted to it by Turkey with "Forever Together" fanfare. Do you see Uzbekistan going against Turkey and joining its enemies, or Cyprus against Greece? Or Switzerland against Germany?

Greek and Turkish are not intelligible languages and nor did Greece elect a Turk to run it until 2014.

Greece is treated far less fairly by ze "west" despite the fact that Greece is not provoking anybody.

The west keeps equidistances whenever Erdogan threatens Greece and is not even clearly standing by international law.

But all this is irrelevant regardless. Ukraine military objectives have failed. Time to rethink the strategy.

Ukraine needs a distraction like the dam a lot more than Russia does.

Russia has re-evaluated its strategic objectives in Ukraine since the war started to far more pragmatic and realistic objectives. Ukraine on the other hand has doubled down and has been promising to take Crimea from Russia.

Time for Ukraine to come back to planet earth just like Russia already did.

[Rugoz]

You are projecting your arrogance. Greece is not a Turkish-speaking former province up until less than 10 years ago, nor is it a country whose entire territory was literally gifted to it by Turkey with "Forever Together" fanfare. Do you see Uzbekistan going against Turkey and joining its enemies, or Cyprus against Greece? Or Switzerland against Germany?

Greek and Turkish are not intelligible languages and nor did Greece elect a Turk to run it until 2014.

Greece is treated far less fairly by ze "west" despite the fact that Greece is not provoking anybody.

The west keeps equidistances whenever Erdogan threatens Greece and is not even clearly standing by international law.

But all this is irrelevant regardless. Ukraine military objectives have failed. Time to rethink the strategy.

Ukraine needs a distraction like the dam a lot more than Russia does.

Disgusting.

At least as a Swiss I'm not dumb enough to believe that Swiss Germans want to part of Germany or a German invasion would be justified in any way or form.

Your 19th century ethnonationalism is noted.

[late]

By blowing the damn, Russia delays the counteroffensive for weeks. There will be flooding, and even after that subsides, it's going to be a muddy mess trying to get through.

There are more damns, and if Ukraine tries to push up there, Russia is likely to blow one or both of them.

That water was used to irrigate the crops in that part of Ukraine, including Crimea. Which may be a signal that Russia plans on pulling out and is doing a scorched earth policy. If they don't, feeding all those people becomes their job, and their ability to transport stuff is limited.

[noemon]

Disgusting.

At least as a Swiss I'm not dumb enough to believe that Swiss Germans want to part of Germany or a German invasion would be justified in any way or form.

No, you think you are smart enough to pretend that Swiss Germans have not simply come to terms against the idea of Greater Germany. Your nonsense are totally empty of any substance.

Your 19th century ethnonationalism is noted.

Right, said the guy who is blindly supporting a 19th century ethno-nationalist war project in the making. And who is unashamedly openly arguing that support to the project should be blind.

Which may be a signal that Russia plans on pulling out and is doing a scorched earth policy.

If you really believe Russia is planning on pulling out from the Crimea, you have not been paying any attention. This is quite delusional.

[late]

If you really believe Russia is planning on pulling out from the Crimea, you have not been paying any attention. This is quite delusional.

It's unlikely.

Now that the damn is blown, the parts of Ukraine they control are going to face starvation. As the saying goes, winter is coming.

Odds are, Putin is just buying time, and isn't looking that far down the road. He also might be planning on fixing the bridge to Crimea and sending food over that.

Thing of it is, I don't think Ukraine blew the damn...

[noemon]

I don't know why you keep looking at everything from Putin's lens and not from Ukraine's or the US lens?

Repuds are clear that once elected they will turn the lights off in Ukraine.

The vast majority of Europe including France, Germany, Spain and Italy were never for this war and are even less for it now.

Unless Ukraine makes a huge breakthrough, it is doomed and more doomed than you currently imagine because once western money stop flowing, it will not just lose the Russian-inhabited areas, but potentially the entire country. Once Repuds switch off the lights, the Ukrainians will remember once again that they have always been Russians. It only takes a single momentary lapse of reason by a US president to enable the thought of US cannon-fooder among the Ukrainian population.

Russia is in a position to continue this as long as it takes. Russian exports have increased since the war started which further showcases the demotion of the west and China's multipolar world. The same cannot be said for Ukraine. Outside the Baltics and Britain, the rest of the world wants this to be over.

Ukraine needs to start thinking what is in its actual interests and not the interests of others.

[late]

Repuds are clear that once elected they will turn the lights off in Ukraine.

Republicans think they are going to lose the presidential election, and I agree.

There is a wild card, that is women after the Dobbs abortion decision. That has cost Republicans a number of elections, so far, and my thought is that this will continue. But my guess is that Dems keep the White House and the Senate, and Republicans keep the House.

But ya never know, American politics are usually crazy these days.

[JohnRawls]

Kahovka Dam update:

1) It seems to have collapsed because it was not maintained or services at all by the Russians who occupy the servicing areas.

2) They have neglected service since they occupied it, they had 1 part open but didn't regulate anything be it water level or maintanence or equipment.

3) As time went on, without maintanence and any usage of water passage, the level of water started to fluctuate and basically the same drain has been open for a year+ now without stop. It had to survive through extreme draught and extreme pressure from water.

4) In June, since the Russians didn't regulate the water level, the pressure on the Dam due to not enough gates being open started to overwhelm the Dam when the lake wasn't been dumped fast enough down stream and reached the highest levels in its history. Along with no maintanence, same gate being open for over a year+ and so on overwhelmed the Dam and it collased.

TLDR: Russians didn't blow up the Dam nor the Ukranians. No maintenance or oversight over their occupied areas caused it so the Russians are fully to blame for this. A war crime is still a war crime.