[Pants-of-dog]

Please provide a fact that disagrees with my position. Thank you.

[Godstud]

All facts disagree with your position. Your position is based in lies.

[Pants-of-dog]

So no facts contradict my point, and yet another poor attempt at insults.

[Fasces]

If only it were as simple as something a kid puts on their student ID. It's not, but you know that.

It really is that simple, my man. Terminally ill online folks aside, I've met 1 trans person in my life and they just did their thing - pub quizzes, skateboarding, and IT work - while wearing a dress. No skin off my back.

How many trans people have you met in your day to day life demanding you call them Zim/Zer that they deserve to take up such a huge proportion of your mental brainspace and daily outrage?

[Godstud]

@Fasces I have met lots of trans people. They don't push HAVE pronouns or expect you to call them something special because we're not in the West, where it's become an ideology. They also aren't trying to teach this stuff to children and sexualize them at an early age, or in school. My "outrage" i reserved for those who would push their ideology on children and promote genital mutilation and drugging. You'd know that, of course, if you read this thread to any degree.

@Pants-of-dog You're a sock puppet for an ideology of lies.

[Pants-of-dog]

Then please feel free to show a fact that contradicts my claim.

[Rancid]

They also aren't trying to teach this stuff to children and sexualize them at an early age, or in school.

I have kids in school, in the west. I'm not seeing this happening. Yes, I'm paying attention to what's happening in the class, and we regularly meet with the teachers, as well as chat with them via text. There isn't some nefarious plan in execution we are being kept from.

In fact, my kids understand the nuances here. Yes, some of the trans stuff is stupid to the point where I hear my kids and their friends say ironic jokes like "OMG, did you just assume my gender?!?!" in a fake outrage kind way. However, at the same time, they understand that people should be respected for who they are, and that we should allow people to express themselves however they wish. They are smart enough to understand what is nonsense and what is not.

Kids aren't as stupid as you seem to be making them to be. The moral panic is not needed. There is a long long history of moral panics, and they all turned out to not be as terrible as people claimed, and we've figured out how to manage the few real issues that are blown up to create these moral panics.

Sexualization has been happening for decades, and is a separate issue from trans rights. I think the moral panic crowd tries to merge the two intentionally. Take a real issue and merge it with a non-issue is a common and dishonest tactic.


If you want to get angry at sexualization, then get angry at the corporations that make tiny shorts and skirts for my 8 year old daughter. Few alternatives for modest clothes here. When I say modest, I don't mean covered up like nun, just not shit that is... sexualized. It's really hard to find close for little girls that don't make them look like prostitutes (yes, this is hyperbole, but not far from the truth). WHy don't you point your rage at these shit corporations, why don't you point your rage at the shit corporate media, why don't you point your rage that the sellout social media influencers adn booty models that constantly try to make elementary school girls dress up like adult women trying to attract men at a club? That's the out rage from me. Fuck them, not trans people.

How about the parents that dress up a 5 year old girl in a two piece itty bitty bikini at the beach? Want to get angry at sexualization? There it is right in your face. It's not the schools, the teachers, trans, gay, whatever. It's fucking parents doing this shit. I cringe at that shit. The real problem with this, is that it conditions girls to evaluate their personal self-worth mostly based on their appearance (i.e. sexual desirability) from a very very very early age. That's fucked up. This is the shit that causes all terrible body image shit in young women. This is the shit that leads to depression and suicides. Where's the fucking moral outrage with that?

[Godstud]

If it's not happening to your kids, then count yourself lucky, @Rancid. We didn't have marches against this in Canada. last week, for nothing. The media is doing its best to make it look like it's all bigots and transphobes doing this, but it's simply parents who care about their kids.

Bad parents exist, @Rancid. That is not the norm, however.

[Fasces]

it's simply parents who care about their kids.

Neither you, Qatz, or skinster have kids in the Canadian public school system.

None the loudest voices on this "issue" on this forum (or in general) do.

[Tainari88]

Neither you, Qatz, or skinster have kids in the Canadian public school system.

None the loudest voices on this "issue" on this forum (or in general) do.

My two sons are straight. Heterosexuals who like dressing in typical male clothes, etc. I do not have trans children or gay children. But if I did I would never allow them to be cutting a damn thing off and if they did they needed extensive psychological therapy for years first and to really know if that is the only way they could make peace with their gender identity. They also should be prohibited from even getting surgery until their entire growing is done including their brains. Males brains keep growing until age 25 and women age 23. So they need to be barred from any drastic measures for sure until then. You never know how they will feel while going through puberty. They do not realize they are bisexual or gay, or they are gold star lesbians or like sex with a male a few times a year and women the rest of the year. Who knows? Human sexuality is not easy at all.

I also do not believe in letting males born males change their gender to compete in high level women's athletics. It is unfair and highly improper. If you were born a man you have no business competing in some track and field event with women who were born women. Same with tennis and other sports events.

Some sports it does not matter like polker, or dance competitions with groups of people. I did see a gay male couple compete in world dance competitions as a couple like men and women couples do. That is fine. But wrestling, boxing, basketball, soccer, track and field, swimming, sprinting and rowing and shit? NO.

[Fasces]

But if I did I would never allow them to be cutting a damn thing off and if they did they needed extensive psychological therapy for years first and to really know if that is the only way they could make peace with their gender identity.

The same experience of any person that wishes to undergo sex transition surgery, then.

The average age for any procedure was 29.5. The youngest subset of patients were those undergoing mastectomy, with an average age of 28.1, and those undergoing breast augmentation were the oldest, with an average age of 42.4.

Our results suggest the majority of patients who have a GID diagnosis are young adults with an average age of 29.8.

[Tainari88]

The same experience of any person that wishes to undergo sex transition surgery, then.

I think Cher the singer had a daughter that became a man. He name was Chastity. She became Chazz. Transitioned into a male. She said it cost her emotionally. She loved the idea of being the mother of a daughter. The little girl she raised with love for years and to accept almost the death of that and embrace a son after so many years of loving her as a female was very difficult. It is mourning an identity too.

It is a very difficult decision Fasces.

[Fasces]

It is a very difficult decision Fasces.

I'm sure it was, for Chazz.

Not for Cher.

Chazz was 39 when he transitioned.

Usually the late 30s are an age at which parents should come to realize they can no longer decide things for their children.

All Cher can decide at that point is whether she wants a positive or negative relationship with her child going forward, and act accordingly. Personally, I don't consider that decision difficult as much as selfish.

[Tainari88]

I'm sure it was, for Chazz.

Not for Cher.

Chazz was 39 when he transitioned.

Usually the late 30s are an age at which parents should come to realize they can no longer decide things for their children.

All Cher can decide at that point is whether she wants a positive or negative relationship with her child going forward, and act accordingly. Personally, I don't consider that decision difficult as much as selfish.

That is true fasces. I would always want a positive relationship with my child. Some parents though are uber religious and if the kid leaves their religion or something they throw the relationship in the trash. Even if it is a child they raised. For me that is totally shocking.

My older son's older brother lived and was adopted by a conservative Mormon family. If he could not stay in the church he was effectively ostracized. You got to follow the rules or be kicked out.

For me as a parent? You love that child's spirit until the end of time. No matter if they get old, and gray or they change politics, or religious practices, or they decide they want to adopt new values that reject your own. It should not affect a parent's unconditional love for a child. Otherwise what are you doing being their mother.

Before I left for Mexico I told my older son, {if something here goes wrong in your life and you feel your life is falling apart and you can not cope. Remember that you have a home. With me and your father. Always. No matter what you have done or what has happened to you. You go home. With us. I do not care how bad things get. You come home. You are supported. No matter what.

Eso es ser madre o padre. All the rest are pretenders at parenting.

If all that your child has left is nothing after a car accident, or a tragedy, or brain damage, or physical deterioration or loss on all fronts, your role is protect them and support them until the end of the damn WORLD...

[Pants-of-dog]

If it's not happening to your kids, then count yourself lucky, @Rancid. We didn't have marches against this in Canada. last week, for nothing. The media is doing its best to make it look like it's all bigots and transphobes doing this, but it's simply parents who care about their kids.

Bad parents exist, @Rancid. That is not the norm, however.

The ”caring parents” in Edmonton apparently did not care enough to protest at the right place.

They protested at the Alberta Teacher’s Association, instead of at the legislature. It is the legislature that sets the curriculum.

They also had their kids standing on the road, but since the cops were protecting them, this is less important.

[Rancid]

If it's not happening to your kids, then count yourself lucky, @Rancid. We didn't have marches against this in Canada. last week, for nothing. The media is doing its best to make it look like it's all bigots and transphobes doing this, but it's simply parents who care about their kids.

Bad parents exist, @Rancid. That is not the norm, however.

I disagree that I'm "one of the lucky few that has been spared". I think what is really happening is that we have the occasional dumb shit teacher that does happen to fit into the the box you think all/most teachers are in. One teach like this is easy to find, because there will always at least be one. One that really is trying to spread nonsense bullshit to kids (BTW, like I said, kids know it's bullshit and don't just eat it up like helpless little drones). This one incident is then blown up on social media (SAVE THE CHILDREN!). People mistake social media for reality, so then it takes a life of its own. One other factor that feeds into this are conservatives that are hell bent on de-funding public education. They use these isolated incidents as another excuse to de-fund schools, ban books, and generally fuck over poor people.

Moral panics are all a game of manipulation by various interests.

[Tainari88]

@Rancid that is why I think I want my son to be in this Mexican system. It is great. Small classroom sizes, no crazy agendas, and just solid attention and skills. The fencing is mostly free for him. Low cost extracurriculars and art galore for free. Can't go wrong with a decent education for a low cost in this city.

Beats the US public school system by a mile.

[Fasces]

The US education system is a complete disaster. There are several common sense reforms that no Republican or Democrat would support because their end goal is privitization of education.

1) End the link of school district funding with local property tax, and end local control over curriculum. The easiest reform and the first step. You'd need to pair this with reintroducing the concept of failure in US schools, and abandoning the 'customer service' model that US education currently has. Republicans won't support this.

2) Ban all social media for minors under 13, and ban all phones on campuses. This one would work wonders for education in the US, but sadly, without a real gun control is a non-starter. I'd want my kid in a US classroom to have a cellphone. It's absolutely sick. Parents won't support this.

3) Pare down the disability act. This sounds cruel, but US education is completely fucked by its admirable and misguided commitment to ensuring equal access. One student with severe psychological, social, or mental disabilities actively impairs the ability of a teacher to educate the other 20 kids in the class and is fundamentally unfair to those 20. When half the class is on a personalized IEP program that makes it impossible for them to be held to academic standards, education suffers. Democrats won't support this.

4) Introduce tracking and tiered systems of education with adjustments for socio-economic level of student and school; they were banned because of the legacy of racism, but it is impossible for a teacher to plan a lesson for 8th graders and cover all students from a 1st grade reading level to a 10th grade one effectively. It is a disservice to put a child functioning at 3rd grade literacy and math skills in a class that demands 8th grade performance. Historically marginalized communities are kept historically marginalized because they become disillusioned with school at a young age due to falling behind and apathy takes over. Teach a skills-based curriculum and put students in classes that teach them the skills they need, regardless of age level. Democrats won't support this. It is also complicated by the fact that few want an 18 year old in the same class as their 8 year old, but China and Europe have models we could follow that address this.

5) Schools have become more than schools - they're prisons, welfare, counseling services, and so on. Comprehensive community services need to be funded independently, not rolled into an education and policing budget. Fund education appropriately after debloating it as well so you don't lose high quality teachers to other fields or other countries. Republicans won't support this.

6) Blame parents. Some parents are shit at being parents and need to be told. Little Timmy reading for 20 minutes a week at school and going home to do whatever he wants on his iPad all day because the parents either don't care (or are stuck working 3 jobs to survive and have no spare energy to educate their children) isn't going to learn shit. Schools are there to support parents, not replace them. Voters won't support this.

I got my M.Ed from one of the top US programs, and I've taught in a bunch of different cultures - the difference between good education and bad education, as I see it, is basically in these 6 things. Countries which do 5 or 6 of these outperform countries which don't.

The trans issue is irrelevant.

[Neo]

@Fasces

Back in the day when I earned my Bachelor of Science in Computer Science from public university, we would have math professors that would fail the whole class and there was nothing no student could do about it and they (the professors) had the backing of the Department Chair and no grades were changed. The professors I had back in the day were all about failing students.

Academic freedom meant having the freedom to fail and it taught you that failure is part of life and it sucks to fail and costs money. So study to win because it pays to be a winner. They were tenured professors so they couldn't be fired so they could fail whomever they wanted without consequence. The math department I went through had a brutal reputation.

Yup and one problem with kids who are students is that some parents are shitty and dysfunctional which acts as a disabler to the child in earning an education. I have a good friend who is a teacher. He generally comes to me when he has an IT issue or a question about Linux. I turned him into a fan of Linux.

[Tainari88]

The US education system is a complete disaster. There are several common sense reforms that no Republican or Democrat would support because their end goal is privitization of education.

1) End the link of school district funding with local property tax, and end local control over curriculum. The easiest reform and the first step. You'd need to pair this with reintroducing the concept of failure in US schools, and abandoning the 'customer service' model that US education currently has. Republicans won't support this.

2) Ban all social media for minors under 13, and ban all phones on campuses. This one would work wonders for education in the US, but sadly, without a real gun control is a non-starter. I'd want my kid in a US classroom to have a cellphone. It's absolutely sick. Parents won't support this.

3) Pare down the disability act. This sounds cruel, but US education is completely fucked by its admirable and misguided commitment to ensuring equal access. One student with severe psychological, social, or mental disabilities actively impairs the ability of a teacher to educate the other 20 kids in the class and is fundamentally unfair to those 20. When half the class is on a personalized IEP program that makes it impossible for them to be held to academic standards, education suffers. Democrats won't support this.

4) Introduce tracking and tiered systems of education with adjustments for socio-economic level of student and school; they were banned because of the legacy of racism, but it is impossible for a teacher to plan a lesson for 8th graders and cover all students from a 1st grade reading level to a 10th grade one effectively. It is a disservice to put a child functioning at 3rd grade literacy and math skills in a class that demands 8th grade performance. Historically marginalized communities are kept historically marginalized because they become disillusioned with school at a young age due to falling behind and apathy takes over. Teach a skills-based curriculum and put students in classes that teach them the skills they need, regardless of age level. Democrats won't support this. It is also complicated by the fact that few want an 18 year old in the same class as their 8 year old, but China and Europe have models we could follow that address this.

5) Schools have become more than schools - they're prisons, welfare, counseling services, and so on. Comprehensive community services need to be funded independently, not rolled into an education and policing budget. Fund education appropriately after debloating it as well so you don't lose high quality teachers to other fields or other countries. Republicans won't support this.

6) Blame parents. Some parents are shit at being parents and need to be told. Little Timmy reading for 20 minutes a week at school and going home to do whatever he wants on his iPad all day because the parents either don't care (or are stuck working 3 jobs to survive and have no spare energy to educate their children) isn't going to learn shit. Schools are there to support parents, not replace them. Voters won't support this.

I got my M.Ed from one of the top US programs, and I've taught in a bunch of different cultures - the difference between good education and bad education, as I see it, is basically in these 6 things. Countries which do 5 or 6 of these outperform countries which don't.

The trans issue is irrelevant.

Number one and number two is something that has never been fixed and it is ongoing forever.

In terms of the IEPs? The parents need to cope with their own child learning disabilities. They need to have the state pay for specialized stuff. Teachers cannot fix that either. I definitely agree. Banning the cell phones is critical. I do not let my kid have a phone at all in his school. None of the kids have phones in school.

My husband keeps my son so busy that the computer or phone is hard for him to even deal with. Mondays and Wednesday three hours of baseball. Tuesdays and Thursdays, three hours of basketball with hard exercise and a gallon of water and so on to drink. Fridays fencing. Saturdays fencing. Both four hours each. Sunday free day or guitar for the week. No time for wasting his hours on shit. The parents have to sacrifice a lot. Driving him there, picking him up, buying supplental equipment. Feeding him in a tight schedule, etc. But that is reality. You got to do the work.