Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 82 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Moderator: PoFo Middle-East Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#15295935
Beren wrote:Why do you need a reason for providing me with it? What if it just helped me educate myself?

You are being pretty clearly disingenuous. I don't even know what you're driving at but in your mind you think you are playing some sort of rhetorical tricks.
#15295936
Beren wrote:Why do you need a reason for providing me with it? What if it just helped me educate myself?


Let us simply say that I have my reasons.

And I agree that you can educate yourself. I would start by Googling “Haudenosaunee Confederacy” or even “were there any pre-Columbian states in the Americas?”.

In Palestine, there may or may not have been a state (in the modern sense) prior to the creation of Israel.

In terms of the ongoing conflict, how is that important?
#15295938
The Korean Peninsula has never been a unified nation state in the modern sense. Before it's conquest and integration by the Japanese Empire it was under dynastic rule. At the end of World War 2 it was divided. What is the point of these distinctions? To confer legitimacy on the bases of adherence to European political modalities?
#15295940
The whole thing is relevant only because @QatzelOk refusing a two-state solution referred to an injun state vs cowboy state conflict, although an injun state (conflicting a cowboy state) doesn't seem to have ever existed.
#15295941
Saeko wrote:I don't need evidence to state this because it is an inference from the available evidence. The whole question is about whether or not we can conclude that there are Hamas tunnels from reports of civilians and the IDF's response to those reports. The answer is "no" because there are many plausible reasons why the IDF might investigate a claim that is almost certainly false.


The available evidence suggests the IDF took it seriously enough to fund the development and deployment of tunnel detection systems.

Saeko wrote:You're missing the point. If the tunnel entrances have to be excavated (a process that apparently takes days), then they cannot have been in use, since then Hamas would have had to dig up and re-bury the entrances every time someone wanted to use one.


Or maybe "excavating" them means exposing them. Hamas would obviously know their location better than Israel.

Furthermore, there have already been soldiers killed by booby trapped entrances so the Israelis are quite evidently going to take their time to avoid losing men to traps, if necessary by excavating their own entrances. All of this takes a while.

Saeko wrote:Oh, please. :roll:


Zero evidence :roll:
#15295943
@Saeko at this point the reality is that the IDF just wants to empty out Gaza of all people. Civvies are collateral damage in the supposed isolation and elimination of Hamas.

Any Palestinian is a potential threat. Whoops, if one has to kill thousands of civvies to get a few terrorists? Israel has to do it.

It is really illegal.

Imagine a Palestinian army killing 12,000 Israelis to get a few serial killers? Oops, we got to bomb out your schools, hospitals, clinics and food stores, and starve you out of fuel, internet and communications, and water, because there might be a psycho among you Israelis who are all potential psychos. It is all justified.
#15295947
Tainari88 wrote:It is really illegal.
I'm glad you support Palestinian terrorism which is completely legal. :roll:

Tainari88 wrote:Imagine a Palestinian army killing 12,000 Israelis to get a few serial killers? Oops, we got to bomb out your schools, hospitals, clinics and food stores, and starve you out of fuel, internet and communications, and water, because there might be a psycho among you Israelis who are all potential psychos. It is all justified.
When Hamas launched rockets and their attacks they killed anyone and everyone, including foreigners, and kidnapped people, that was OK? If it's only a few serial killers, then maybe the Palestinians should turn them in to the Israelis to face justice. Nope. They made the serial killers their government.

Support for Palestine is the new virtue signaling craze.
#15295957
Beren wrote:I was asking for a source, actually. A source on an injun state existing alongside a cowboy state.


Here are two that I know of:

The Province Of Quebec (Quebec Act 1774)

After the French-Indian War of the mid 1700s (this is who the British were fighting), King George III gave eastern Canada and the Ohio Valley to the Indians and their French allies - a nation state that would sit beside the 13 colonies. Two years later, the Brits in North America rebelled against this act, and eventually ethnic-cleansed the entire region. "Kill the Indians!" features in the Declaration of Independence.

Cherokee Nation

In what is now Georgia and North Carolina, a modern Cherokee nation with written laws and courts and three levels of government was created after the USA became a country. It reached a high human development level in the early 1800s, and then gold was found on their land, so they were ethnic-cleansed to Oklahoma, destroying them in the process. Oklahoma was supposed to be exclusive Indian land, but eventually became just another state.

These are examples of FAILED TWO-STATE SOLUTIONS,
and the reasons that they failed are omni-present in Israel-Palestine as well.
#15295965
wat0n wrote:She's completely delusional, thankfully they'll all be out as soon as the war's intensity begins to do down.

:lol: The old good cop, bad cop routine. Don't worry about those nasty right wing Zionists Palestinians can totally trust in Liberal Zionists. Just be good uncle toms and the liberal Zionists will deliver you a Palestinian state, later this year or maybe next, well at least this decade ... or maybe next. :lol: Don't you worry your pretty little heads about those settlements. they're all totally temporary honest.
#15295966
Rich wrote::lol: The old good cop, bad cop routine. Don't worry about those nasty right wing Zionists Palestinians can totally trust in Liberal Zionists. Just be good uncle toms and the liberal Zionists will deliver you a Palestinian state, later this year or maybe next, well at least this decade ... or maybe next. :lol: Don't you worry your pretty little heads about those settlements. they're all totally temporary honest.


Had liberal Zionists gotten their way, there would be no ongoing conflict.

I can tell Qatz is still going strong with the indigenous Acadian theory after all these years.
#15295980
QatzelOk wrote:Here are two that I know of:

The Province Of Quebec (Quebec Act 1774)

After the French-Indian War of the mid 1700s (this is who the British were fighting), King George III gave eastern Canada and the Ohio Valley to the Indians and their French allies - a nation state that would sit beside the 13 colonies. Two years later, the Brits in North America rebelled against this act, and eventually ethnic-cleansed the entire region. "Kill the Indians!" features in the Declaration of Independence.

Cherokee Nation

In what is now Georgia and North Carolina, a modern Cherokee nation with written laws and courts and three levels of government was created after the USA became a country. It reached a high human development level in the early 1800s, and then gold was found on their land, so they were ethnic-cleansed to Oklahoma, destroying them in the process. Oklahoma was supposed to be exclusive Indian land, but eventually became just another state.

These are examples of FAILED TWO-STATE SOLUTIONS,
and the reasons that they failed are omni-present in Israel-Palestine as well.

The first one was a colony containing parts of the Indian Reserve, while the second one was a tribal government the US gov could even ask to move to reservations, neither of which seems to have been a really well-established state the Palestinians should have.

However, what's your alternative to a two-state solution? That Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea?
#15295997
Saeko wrote:https://twitter.com/scottlong1980/status/1726448187739926580


Not surprising isn't it? I wrote about this dozens of pages ago here. Both sides have their own "endgame" one is "Palestine from the river to the sea" that we all know, well Israels endgame is basically the same. This is the direct outcome of both sides being ruled over by extremists. And somebody wants peace under this conditions? Lets be realistic here, ain't gonna happen until you get rid of the extremists on both sides.
#15295998
JohnRawls wrote:Not surprising isn't it? I wrote about this dozens of pages ago here. Both sides have their own "endgame" one is "Palestine from the river to the sea" that we all know, well Israels endgame is basically the same. This is the direct outcome of both sides being ruled over by extremists. And somebody wants peace under this conditions? Lets be realistic here, ain't gonna happen until you get rid of the extremists on both sides.


The key difference is the Israeli extremists have the power--and political clout internationally--to have a realistic chance of attaining their endgame; the Palestinians don't.
#15295999
starman2003 wrote:The key difference is the Israeli extremists have the power--and political clout internationally--to have a realistic chance of attaining their endgame; the Palestinians don't.


I wouldn't say that. You are forgetting that Hamas started the war because Israel was making progress in this direction to stop that progress. The whole point of this war is for the process to be fully stopped.
#15296000
Godstud wrote:I'm glad you support Palestinian terrorism which is completely legal. :roll:

When Hamas launched rockets and their attacks they killed anyone and everyone, including foreigners, and kidnapped people, that was OK? If it's only a few serial killers, then maybe the Palestinians should turn them in to the Israelis to face justice. Nope. They made the serial killers their government.

Support for Palestine is the new virtue signaling craze.


No Godstud, your accusations of what I mean are not valid at all. I do not endorse wanton killing and any killing at all as valid. It is wrong to kill. It is wrong to oppress. It is wrong to murder people. It is wrong and immoral to displace people and hurt and harm them and discriminate against them.

Why is the narrative always if you defend anything regarding Arab Palestinians you are automatically and anti-semite and anti-Jewish. That is not true. What I am against is the response from the Netanyahu government. It is not proportional, sober or even humane. It is about wiping out an entire ethnic group because Hamas became their government? The US government kills people who are their own citizens (in Puerto Rico by bombing Vieques and giving people there cancer that is terminal due to depleted Uranium, should my and other Puerto Ricans response be to plant bombs in Washington DC and kill innocent civilians by the busload because they bombed out my mother or some other Puerto Ricans in Vieques?), the government of the USA has killed a lot of Native Americans too, should the Tribes response be to bomb out a bunch of American civvies in their nearest cities? The last freak who killed children and civvies in the USA in a bomb out planted by him because he was angry at the US government was Timothy McVeigh in 1995 and he was a DOMESTIC Right Wing terrorist. Did the US government kill thousands of American civilians on their way to capturing McVeigh? No, they did not do it that way. They bided their time till they had good intelligence and then busted a move on a lucky stop at a traffic signal stop.

There is the intelligent way of coping with terrorism and then there is really a justification for killing innocent people that have nothing to do with the beefs one has with a government that is UNJUST.

Terrorist organizations do not represent the entire or whole of a people. They rarely do. Not even in Afghanistan was Al Quada representing all Afghanis. Neither was the Taliban. They were actually organizations (the Mujahadeen funded by the US government in order to undermine the ex Russian or Soviet union). They did not care (the US government) that those people were religious extremists and violence as a means to gain power thinkers. THey only cared about undermining their political enemies.

You need to treat all people with universal human rights. ALL PEOPLE. That includes people and organizations you disagree with. Now if you think violence is unavoidable and you have to engage in it? Have some ground rules. You do not kill thousands of civvies to catch a Timothy McVeigh or a Terry Nichols. You do a thorough intelligence assessment and then you strategize to catch them but you keep the civilian people as safe as you can.

You have to work very hard and intelligently. Indiscriminate killing of children, cutting off power and letting babies who are preemies die because too bad, they are in a hospital with some Hamas supposed people hiding is the action of cowards and immoral governments.

I have never endorsed in my entire life killing of innocents. That would be like endorsing that it is ok to kill protesters and bystanders and people who just want to live in peace. What kind of fucking justification that is for a person endorsing universal human rights? When have I ever endorsed violating people's civil rights or universal human rights?

Godstud, war is a very dirty business. It is indiscriminate and ugly. But how many wars has the USA government been active in or has provided funds for in the last one hundred years? MANY is the answer. That is not a peaceful nation. It is a nation that wants to control the world. You can't control the world. You have to know how to negotiate and reach humane and decent agreements with people who have fundamentally differing philosophies of life. If you can't do that? You will guarantee war. In a nuclear age? That means risking your children's lives. Your son and my son. What kind of shitty world do we want to leave for those innocents?

Think about that.

BTW, Henry Ford was a raging and well-documented Anti-Semite. Any American citizen who drives a Ford is endorsing Anti-Semitism. That is the logic you are throwing at me.

It is foolish.

The laws regarding Israeli citizens vs Palestinians is not equal. Have you read the laws they have for Palestinians vs Israelis? It is not equal. Why? because they are not to be trusted. They are all terrorists. No people agree 100% on ANYTHING. If you have diversity which is innate in almost all human societies you will have people who disagree. Do you justify calling them all the same? If you do? You are an extremist. And the kind of person that JohnRawls is accusing of impeding a peace process.

Racists do that a lot. All of Jews are this. All of the Arabs are that. All of the Blacks are this. All of the Mexicans are that. All of the Chinese are this. Etc. Once they start on that shit? It is downhill from there.
  • 1
  • 80
  • 81
  • 82
  • 83
  • 84
  • 220

When you are done with your revisionist history a[…]

What if the attacks were a combination of "c[…]

Very dishonest to replace violent Israeli hooliga[…]

Kamala Harris was vile. Utterly vile! https://www[…]