Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 94 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15296883
Labour party in UK, and Biden in the US haven't killed many people as of late with terrorist attacks, dumbass. :knife:
#15296886
Fasces wrote:Define 'terrorist attack'.


A highly subjective term. One man's "terrorist" is another man's freedom fighter. One can say Israel has been a terrorist entity since the days of the stern gang. Killing scientists of other nations can be viewed as state terrorism.
#15296891
Wikipedia wrote:Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims.


Are we happy with that, @Godstud?

What's your definition of terrorism?

starman2003 wrote:A highly subjective term.


Which is why an operating definition is helpful.

The US definition, for example, specifies the 'targetting of civilians by non-state actors' as part of the definition - if we accept Hamas is the legal government of Gaza and that Gaza is not an occupied state under Israel, then the Hamas murders, by the US definition, aren't terrorism precisely because Hamas is a state actor.

If we include any violence that targets civilians to accomplish political goals, then the US Dems and Labour are absolutely complicit in state-sponsored terrorism - "shock and awe doctrine" used in Iraq and Afghanistan up to 2023 explicitly relies on the fear or threat of violence to induce desirable political goals.
#15296900
Godstud wrote:Hamas are terrorists...


The Canadian government (and many other Western governments) have officially designated Hamas a "terrorist" group. It's kind of weird that our governments have "an opinion" on the intent of specific other governments. Imagine if the Canadian government officially considered Leonardo di Caprio "an asshole." Shouldn't people be able to make up their own minds regarding his intentions or character?

Back in the 1700s, many First Nations were designated "savages", and this negative-sounding word made it easier to genocide them.

The word "terrorist" is used by Western governments to "explain" their frequent mass murders of defenseless people in developing countries.

Obviously, the Israelis have helped us to detest these "terrorists," and mass media has, throughout my lifetime, portrayed Arabs as illogical, violent, and superstititious. Anyone who watches enough Hollywood movies will have "an inkling" that the Arabs are not to be trusted. This media-installed inkling is called "racism."

It works on the non-contemplative. Dull normals think these words (terrorist, savage) were handed down to mankind from a deity on a cloud, or by some appointed group of intellectual word-smiths.

No. These words were harnassed by the rich (through their media proxies) who want to encourage us to kill other ordinary people so that these rich controllers can be richer.


Fasces wrote: ...if we accept Hamas is the legal government of Gaza and that Gaza is not an occupied state under Israel, then the Hamas murders, by the US definition, aren't terrorism precisely because Hamas is a state actor.

Exactly. Our governments just throw around words to manipulate their cattle (us) into emotional responses.
"Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply if you can make up a nasty sounding word for other people.
Last edited by QatzelOk on 28 Nov 2023 13:45, edited 2 times in total.
#15296901
So @QatzelOk, you are now trying to justify murder? Words have meaning, moron.
#15296902
Godstud wrote:So @QatzelOk, you are now trying to justify murder? Words have meaning, educated one.

Yes, they do. Look them up sometime.

"Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply if you can make up a nasty sounding word for other people. Is that what "terrorist" means? That you want to kill people?
#15296909
Fasces wrote:The US definition, for example, specifies the 'targetting of civilians by non-state actors' as part of the definition - if we accept Hamas is the legal government of Gaza and that Gaza is not an occupied state under Israel, then the Hamas murders, by the US definition, aren't terrorism precisely because Hamas is a state actor.


Hamas isn't the legal government of Gaza though. Fatah isn't the legal government of the West Bank either, in theory they should have held elections over a decade ago.

I think it's just better to speak about Hamas deliberately targeting civilians. It's much clearer and straight to the point.
#15296912
In 2019, Belgian had no government. Belgian troops were nonetheless operating in northern Afghanistan. Were these Belgian soldiers terrorists?

wat0n wrote: I think it's just better to speak about Hamas deliberately targeting civilians. It's much clearer and straight to the point.


Sure. Hamas, like Israel, deliberately targets civilians. Neither side should do this.

Some folks just like the rhetorical punch of saying "terrorist" because it makes it easier to dehumanize an entire people group and justify a campaign of shock and awe.
#15296915
Fasces wrote:In 2019, Belgian had no government. Belgian troops were nonetheless operating in northern Afghanistan. Were these Belgian soldiers terrorists?


It had a legal caretaker government. What's the legal government in both Gaza and the West Bank?

Fasces wrote:Sure. Hamas, like Israel, deliberately targets civilians. Neither side should do this.

Some folks just like the rhetorical punch of saying "terrorist" because it makes it easier to dehumanize an entire people group and justify a campaign of shock and awe.


Prove Israel deliberately targets civilians.
#15296917
wat0n wrote:What's the legal government in both Gaza and the West Bank?


Look, you added the 'legal government' thing into the definition. The definition of 'state' doesn't require the government be legal.

I'm perfectly happy with a definition of terrorism that includes state actors and labelling Hamas, Iran, Israel, the US military, and many other states as organizations which engage in terrorist activites and sponsor terror.

wat0n wrote:Prove Israel deliberately targets civilians.


This isn't a good faith request until you establish parameters by which you would consider it 'proved' or 'deliberate'.
Last edited by Fasces on 28 Nov 2023 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
#15296919
@wat0n

Bombing of civilian infrastructure and shelling of densely populated areas constitute grave breaches of international humanitarian law, whether committed by Palestinian armed groups or by Israeli Defence Forces.

— OCHR, Geneva, 12 October 2023


:)

* My emphasis
#15296922
Fasces wrote:Look, you added the 'legal government' thing into the definition. The definition of 'state' doesn't require the government be legal.

I'm perfectly happy with a definition of terrorism that includes state actors and labelling Hamas, Iran, Israel, the US military, and many other states as organizations which engage in terrorist activites and sponsor terror.


Note the Belgian caretaker government was entirely legal under Belgian law. Note too you spoke about "legal" governments here too.

Fasces wrote:This isn't a good faith request until you establish parameters by which you would consider it 'proved' or 'deliberate'.


Sure. Show there was no discernible use of the target for military ends and that the attacker was clearly aware of that.

When Hamas attacked the Re'im music festival by surprise using ground troops, for instance, it was clear to everyone - including the attackers - they weren't hitting a military target and even Hamas doesn't claim it was. I've yet to see Israel doing something like that in this war.

This is also why @ingliz is full of shit, civilian infrastructure that is being used for a military purpose can certainly be hit by an attack if such attack is proportional. He's fully aware of this but he chooses to pretend otherwise because, deep down, he agrees with Otto Ohlendorf both with his defense in Nuremberg and the actions he committed that got him declared guilty. It is also selective, as he has no issues with Russia bombing Ukrainian civilian infrastructure that is also used by its military, like Ukrainian airports, even if scores of civilians die in the process.
#15296923
So the IDF can deliberately target and kill civilians but it is not "terrorism" because they supposedly honestly believe that there is a military target there too.

Does it matter how well founded or sincere the belief is?
#15296926
@Pants-of-dog prove the Israelis deliberately target civilians when they are hitting legitimate military targets.

Is this going to be your new strategy for justifying the October 7 massacre without explicitly saying you justify the October 7 massacre?
#15296928
If you aerially bomb an area as densely populated as Gaza, you are deliberately targeting civilians. No question about it. Whether it's your sole intention or collateral is irrelevant; everyone knows they will die.

The mealy mouthed reply usually goes along the lines of 'well this is war, they started it'. But that's exactly what many would say about October 7th. They can justify killing civilians, you can to then?
#15296930
I think you have to have an all or nothing approach to what war is. War is barbarism, slaughter and destruction. There are no rules to it, there never have been. This has been an ongoing war of over 70 years now. If you believe the Gaza bombing as necessary and the death worthwhile, then you must also look at the October 7th killings as the consequence of war (not justified by any moral standards I adhere to).
#15296931
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the IDF can deliberately target and kill civilians but it is not "terrorism" because they supposedly honestly believe that there is a military target there too.

Does it matter how well founded or sincere the belief is?


Civilians dying when they are near legitimate military targets is not a war crime. So in this sense targeting military production facilities loaded full of civilian specialists is not a war crime under international law of armed conflicts.
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