Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 100 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#15297360
Potemkin wrote:Actually, they do. Especially if they are in government and believe they have a ‘mandate’ to commit their crimes. As Voltaire pointed out, most great crimes are committed by people marching in broad daylight to the beat of a drum with bugles and trumpets playing.


Perhaps, but only in cases where they can be sure people will look away or just can't comprehend it. I've no doubt Israel commits many crimes, but the crime of genocide is perhaps the ultimate crime and one nobody tends to commit without cover of open war. I'm not in agreement that genocide has been committed against the Palestinians yet, but there's the potential and certainly the will in Israel. It will, of course, be done in the name of 'security/defence', like all genocides are.
#15297366
Potemkin wrote:Actually, they do. Especially if they are in government and believe they have a ‘mandate’ to commit their crimes. As Voltaire pointed out, most great crimes are committed by people marching in broad daylight to the beat of a drum with bugles and trumpets playing.


Indeed, the massacres in Rwanda were done in broad daylight and even filmed by the foreign press. Furthermore, it's not like one can hide a campaign to physically destroy a population.

albionfagan wrote:Perhaps, but only in cases where they can be sure people will look away or just can't comprehend it. I've no doubt Israel commits many crimes, but the crime of genocide is perhaps the ultimate crime and one nobody tends to commit without cover of open war. I'm not in agreement that genocide has been committed against the Palestinians yet, but there's the potential and certainly the will in Israel. It will, of course, be done in the name of 'security/defence', like all genocides are.


There's always a potential for genocide in war, and even more so if it's part of a long conflict. In fact, I can imagine genocide happening if Israel and the Palestinians signed a peace agreement purporting to solve all issues yet conflict resumed for whatever reason (e.g. major attacks by a rejectionist group, after such group carried a coup against either government) since this nightmare scenario would show there is no peaceful solution, even if both are ruled by governments who sincerely want peace and even agree to it.

I feel sometimes people lack creativity on what the worst case scenario can be. If there's something worse than a failed negotiation or having no negotiation, is having a successful negotiation that still doesn't effectively end violence. It's also why Hamas must be toppled from Gaza, as long as it remains in power this scenario is entirely possible if not likely.
#15297372
Apologies, I think I've made my point very badly here.

War is the usual driver of genocide, there may well be genocidal intent there beforehand and awfully repressive/oppressive measures but there has to be the barbarism of war there. That's why, I believe, in with the all the attention we have now, the cloak of war is what will give a power the confidence to commit it. I hope I'm wrong.

With war you can justify absolutely anything at all. Like a street fight, you've got to do what you've got to do to win.
#15297382
Tainari88 wrote:...That is what happens when you do not see the suffering of the others who are on the receiving end of all this immorality!!

This is actually the best definition of "fascism" because, though it is not precise, it describes what really unites all fascist governance models: No real care about the damage or suffering that government (or state actors) cause.

NOT CARING about other people's suffering or long-term damage... is fascism's calling card.

Fascism is often defined as a bond between state institutions (government, industry, religion, etc)... but the surest sign that "something is rotten" is the callous punishment of people with no remorse.

Some countries have made remorseless violence their calling card.
#15297405
Sandzak wrote:Should Egypt and Jordan rethinkt their alliance with the West regarding the carnage in Gaza.

Now is China-Russia the new pole.


Depending on how far Bibi & co go, the Gaza campaign may force Egypt and Jordan to terminate relations with Israel, effectively ending the peace treaties. That would mean an end to US aid, forcing both nations toward Russia and China. This may sound far-fetched but for years Egypt has been turning to Russia for some weapons. No doubt Cairo grew tired of being denied weapons which are a match for Israel's, and realized it must be ready for all eventualities.
#15297408
Godstud wrote:Israel removed 8,000 Israeli settlers from Gaza in 2005 for peace.


wikipedia wrote:
The Pretoria government established ten Bantustans in South Africa, and ten in neighbouring South West Africa, for the purpose of concentrating the members of designated ethnic groups, thus making each of those territories ethnically homogeneous as the basis for creating autonomous nation states for South Africa's different black ethnic groups. [...]

Under the Bantu Homelands Citizenship Act of 1970, the government stripped black South Africans of their South African citizenship, depriving them of their few remaining political and civil rights in South Africa, and declared them to be citizens of these homelands.

The government of South Africa declared as independent four of the South African Bantustans [...] The Bantustans were generally poor, with few local employment opportunities [...] Laws in the Bantustans differed from those in South Africa proper [...] the homelands were only kept afloat by massive subsidies from the South African government [...] The Bantustans' governments were invariably corrupt and little wealth trickled down to the local populations [...] Bantustans within the borders of South Africa were classified as "self-governing" or "independent". In theory, self-governing Bantustans had control over many aspects of their internal functioning but were not yet sovereign nations [...]



If only PoFo were around in 1983. :roll:
#15297409
wat0n wrote:It's also why Hamas must be toppled from Gaza, as long as it remains in power this scenario is entirely possible if not likely.

Look I'm no expert on Hamas or Palestinian society, but the idea that Hamas can be toppled, in the way that Saddam was toppled seems like pure hokum to me. In 2003 some of us argued that we merely need to kick in the door in Iraq and Sunni Arab Baathism would collapse. And of course we were utterly vindicated by events while all the lefties that hoped for some great Saddam led Iraq National resistance were totally humiliated.

But Gaza is not Iraq. Its population is solidly Sunni Arab. The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood emerged as the dominant force in Syria. Hamas would almost certainly win free elections in the West Bank. As I say there's been a lot of whining about Hamas killing civilians, but it strikes me that Hamas had to do this to stop it self hemorrhaging support to more extreme Islamists.
Last edited by Rich on 03 Dec 2023 10:57, edited 1 time in total.
#15297410
Wat0n in 2063: "there won't be peace in Gaza until we remove [Hamas2]. As long as it remains in power...*

There are two paths to permanent peace: integration or genocide.

Integration would require Israel to kindnof" put up" with a generation or two of terror attacks while working to educate, house, provide for, and ultimately integrate the new generations of Palestineans. It would require Israel to abandon the idea of itself as a Jewish and Zionist state as opposed to a secular multi ethnic democracy.

Genocide would require, past the first year, the nearby community and world to turn a blind eye and let Israel operate with impunity and continuing to subsidize them while doing so.
#15297413
wat0n wrote:Yeah, I bet a sworn enemy of the Muslim Brotherhood to the point of ousting them by force a decade ago like al-Sisi will rush to help Hamas.

No, they aren't going to do any of that.


I didn't say Egypt would help Hamas. I just suggested outrage might boil over, especially if expulsion occurred, forcing Egypt to take drastic steps like breaking relations with Israel.
#15297416
starman2003 wrote:Depending on how far Bibi & co go, the Gaza campaign may force Egypt and Jordan to terminate relations with Israel, effectively ending the peace treaties. That would mean an end to US aid, forcing both nations toward Russia and China. This may sound far-fetched but for years Egypt has been turning to Russia for some weapons. No doubt Cairo grew tired of being denied weapons which are a match for Israel's, and realized it must be ready for all eventualities.

It also sounds wishful thinking. Neither Jordan nor Egypt is going to turn on Israel and the US and ally with the sinking ship captained by Putin, their populace also don't care that much actually. China's expansion will also slow down or even stop due to the slowdown of Chinese economic growth, they'll be busy dealing with their own inner problems soon anyway. Military might also matters a lot in the Middle East, which doesn't favour China either. Egypt and Jordan don't have to be "ready for all eventualities" regarding Israel because Israel apparently means to observe the peace treaties.
#15297427
Rich wrote:Look I'm no expert on Hamas or Palestinian society, but the idea that Hamas can be toppled, in the way that Saddam was toppled seems like pure hokum to me. In 2003 some of us argued that we merely need to kick in the door in Iraq and Sunni Arab Baathism would collapse. And of course we were utterly vindicated by events while all the lefties that hoped for some great Saddam led Iraq National resistance were totally humiliated.

But Gaza is not Iraq. Its population is solidly Sunni Arab. The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood emerged as the dominant force in Syria. Hamas would almost certainly win free elections in the West Bank. As I say there's been a lot of whining about Hamas killing civilians, but it strikes me that Hamas had to do this to stop it self hemorrhaging support to more extreme Islamists.


ISIS was toppled from Mosul and the rest of Iraq and Syria, I don't see why the same couldn't happen to Hamas.

Yes, ISIS still exists yet it's an empty shell of its former self. Toppling Hamas, and then taking the window opened by this to establish an international force to aid the Palestinian Authority in governing Gaza, would be the best course of action.

Fasces wrote:Wat0n in 2063: "there won't be peace in Gaza until we remove [Hamas2]. As long as it remains in power...*

There are two paths to permanent peace: integration or genocide.

Integration would require Israel to kindnof" put up" with a generation or two of terror attacks while working to educate, house, provide for, and ultimately integrate the new generations of Palestineans. It would require Israel to abandon the idea of itself as a Jewish and Zionist state as opposed to a secular multi ethnic democracy.

Genocide would require, past the first year, the nearby community and world to turn a blind eye and let Israel operate with impunity and continuing to subsidize them while doing so.


Oh yes, Israel would need to put up with a couple of generations of massacres like that of October 7, wouldn't it? Maybe until there are no Jews, that would totally "integrate" everyone.

Also, how's that "secular multi-ethnic democracy" idea working out in Xinjiang? Does Xinjiang enjoy a "permanent peace"?

Neither path leads to permanent peace. The most direct path to permanent peace is to topple Hamas and then use this window to send an international peacekeeping force to Gaza that effectively keeps peace there. Then, put pressure on both Israel and the Palestinian Authority to make concessions on all issues for the sake of singing an agreement that sticks - not unlike the pressure that was put on both Israel and Egypt in the 1970s by Henry Kissinger that eventually lead to their peace agreement that has stuck ever since.

An Israeli withdrawal of its troops and settlers from whatever territory becomes part of Palestine after land swaps, with the enlargement of the international peacekeeping force that was deployed to Gaza after showing to have kept the peace there so it can be deployed to the rest of Palestine and keep the peace there too, would turn the State of Palestine into a reality and end the conflict at last.

starman2003 wrote:I didn't say Egypt would help Hamas. I just suggested outrage might boil over, especially if expulsion occurred, forcing Egypt to take drastic steps like breaking relations with Israel.


It doesn't really seem like this is happening anytime soon. The non-Palestinian Arabs don't like Israel yet they also don't like Palestinians enough to want to face any significant costs in helping them. Many haven't forgotten all the problems they had with the PLO and other Palestinian armed groups in the past.

Even worse, since Hamas is just a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas is also seen as a domestic threat. The same can be said about the other armed groups.
#15297428
@Fasces Yes, you're a liberal. Thanks for exposing your hypocrisy.
#15297433
The plan seems to be to ethically cleanse Gaza by driving all the refugees into Egypt and then not letting them return.

Several officials and policy papers from the Israeli government have put this forth.

And the IDF seems to be doing just that.
#15297434
@Pants-of-dog and Hamas is killing Palestinians attempting to flee the war. It must be nice to be so confident in your absolute ignorance. Hamas are the terrorists who started this conflict, not Israel.
#15297446
Hello all. I've decided to join the normal, and cease activity on the satire side of things, ergo the Gorky forum.

Over time, I've become a bit emotional over the meaning of my attachment to the satirical and metaphysical language and ideas I've published, on this site, with emotional's connotation being negative.

In any event, my pragmatic, hopefully non-metaphysical contribution, to the theme of the Israel Gaza war issue is this: humanity, across the planet should project not the cultural version, but, the philosophy version of the proverbial theism vs atheism debate of humanity, onto the Israel Gaza war, as a way to stop politicians across the planet from having the usual access to their cultural right-wing language.

Hope this helps!
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