Rich wrote:Look I'm no expert on Hamas or Palestinian society, but the idea that Hamas can be toppled, in the way that Saddam was toppled seems like pure hokum to me. In 2003 some of us argued that we merely need to kick in the door in Iraq and Sunni Arab Baathism would collapse. And of course we were utterly vindicated by events while all the lefties that hoped for some great Saddam led Iraq National resistance were totally humiliated.
But Gaza is not Iraq. Its population is solidly Sunni Arab. The Muslim Brotherhood won the elections in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood emerged as the dominant force in Syria. Hamas would almost certainly win free elections in the West Bank. As I say there's been a lot of whining about Hamas killing civilians, but it strikes me that Hamas had to do this to stop it self hemorrhaging support to more extreme Islamists.
ISIS was toppled from Mosul and the rest of Iraq and Syria, I don't see why the same couldn't happen to Hamas.
Yes, ISIS still exists yet it's an empty shell of its former self. Toppling Hamas, and then taking the window opened by this to establish an international force to aid the Palestinian Authority in governing Gaza, would be the best course of action.
Fasces wrote:Wat0n in 2063: "there won't be peace in Gaza until we remove [Hamas2]. As long as it remains in power...*
There are two paths to permanent peace: integration or genocide.
Integration would require Israel to kindnof" put up" with a generation or two of terror attacks while working to educate, house, provide for, and ultimately integrate the new generations of Palestineans. It would require Israel to abandon the idea of itself as a Jewish and Zionist state as opposed to a secular multi ethnic democracy.
Genocide would require, past the first year, the nearby community and world to turn a blind eye and let Israel operate with impunity and continuing to subsidize them while doing so.
Oh yes, Israel would need to put up with a couple of generations of massacres like that of October 7, wouldn't it? Maybe until there are no Jews, that would totally "integrate" everyone.
Also, how's that "secular multi-ethnic democracy" idea working out in Xinjiang? Does Xinjiang enjoy a "permanent peace"?
Neither path leads to permanent peace. The most direct path to permanent peace is to topple Hamas and then use this window to send an international peacekeeping force to Gaza that effectively keeps peace there. Then, put pressure on both Israel and the Palestinian Authority to make concessions on all issues for the sake of singing an agreement that sticks - not unlike the pressure that was put on both Israel and Egypt in the 1970s by Henry Kissinger that eventually lead to their peace agreement that has stuck ever since.
An Israeli withdrawal of its troops and settlers from whatever territory becomes part of Palestine after land swaps, with the enlargement of the international peacekeeping force that was deployed to Gaza after showing to have kept the peace there so it can be deployed to the rest of Palestine and keep the peace there too, would turn the State of Palestine into a reality and end the conflict at last.
starman2003 wrote:I didn't say Egypt would help Hamas. I just suggested outrage might boil over, especially if expulsion occurred, forcing Egypt to take drastic steps like breaking relations with Israel.
It doesn't really seem like this is happening anytime soon. The non-Palestinian Arabs don't like Israel yet they also don't like Palestinians enough to want to face any significant costs in helping them. Many haven't forgotten all the problems they had with the PLO and other Palestinian armed groups in the past.
Even worse, since Hamas is just a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas is also seen as a domestic threat. The same can be said about the other armed groups.