Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 101 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15297454
wat0n wrote:Oh yes, Israel would need to put up with a couple of generations of massacres like that of October 7, wouldn't it? Maybe until there are no Jews, that would totally "integrate" everyone.


I won't respond to strawmen arguments. I am not in favor of the genocide of the Jewish people - multiethnic states can exist without genocide.

wat0n wrote:Oh yes, Israel would need to put up with a couple of generations of massacres like that of October 7


The October 7th massacre was preventable. If you mean 'putting up with a generation or two' of occassional violence without immediately resorting to bombing Gaza into the stone age (ideally by working with local authorities on counter-terrorism police operations), then yes, Israel probably will have too. The US can accept its plague of mass shootings without bombing the suburbs that birth them. You can't respond to every terrorist attack by waging war on a people group without raising new generations of extremists.

wat0n wrote:Also, how's that "secular multi-ethnic democracy" idea working out in Xinjiang? Does Xinjiang enjoy a "permanent peace"?


I presumed we were speaking about continuing the democracy that exists in Israel - I would like to, nonetheless.

In Xinjiang, Islamism is combatted through education and economic integration (hence I oppose blanket boycotts on Xinjiang made goods by the West, as it only contributes to extremism). Uyghers live and work in all of China's provinces, and China has invested billions in expanding educational and employment opportunities in rural areas to eliminate the fertile ground of despondism that feeds extremist movements. The heavy handed police presence of the mid 2010s is receding, even if it isn't totally gone, and Uyghers are Chinese citizens like any other resident of China. If Israel wants to exist next to a peaceful Palestine, the permanent militarization of the border, restrictions on the free movement of Palestinean workers and residents at least to and from Gaza to the West Bank, and the blockade at air and sea that prevent free international commerce in Gaza all need to go.

wat0n wrote:The most direct path to permanent peace is to topple Hamas and then use this window to send an international peacekeeping force to Gaza that effectively keeps peace there.


Sure, and I support an international force doing so because I do not trust Israel to do it right. Nonetheless, Israel would still need to do what I described above or the marginalization of the Palestinean people will continue even under an international government, and new extremists would continue to be Gaza's only notable export.
#15297456
Fasces wrote:I won't respond to strawmen arguments. I am not in favor of the genocide of the Jewish people - multiethnic states can exist without genocide.


Multi-ethnic states can exist peacefully, but only if there is a prior history of good relations. That isn't the case here.

Fasces wrote:The October 7th massacre was preventable. If you mean 'putting up with a generation or two' of occassional violence without immediately resorting to bombing Gaza into the stone age (ideally by working with local authorities on counter-terrorism police operations), then yes, Israel probably will have too. The US can accept its plague of mass shootings without bombing the suburbs that birth them. You can't respond to every terrorist attack by waging war on a people group without raising new generations of extremists.


The US can and indeed should enact gun control measures to help with the mass shootings. It also doesn't need to bomb suburbs because they are already under US effective control. Gaza isn't under Israel's effective control.

The US' reaction to the last major attack on its soil was not radically different from Israel's. Neither was France's reaction to the last major attack on its soil by ISIS in 2015.

Also, one thing that the October 7 massacre proved is that no security measures are perfect or infallible against a well-armed and relatively decently trained enemy willing to do such a thing. They can always fail, and indeed they eventually will.

Fasces wrote:I presumed we were speaking about continuing the democracy that exists in Israel - I would like to, nonetheless.

In Xinjiang, Islamism is combatted through education and economic integration (hence I oppose blanket boycotts on Xinjiang made goods by the West, as it only contributes to extremism). Uyghers live and work in all of China's provinces, and China has invested billions in expanding educational and employment opportunities in rural areas to eliminate the fertile ground of despondism that feeds extremist movements. The heavy handed police presence of the mid 2010s is receding, even if it isn't totally gone, and Uyghers are Chinese citizens like any other resident of China. If Israel wants to exist next to a peaceful Palestine, the permanent militarization of the border, restrictions on the free movement of Palestinean workers and residents at least to and from Gaza to the West Bank, and the blockade at air and sea that prevent free international commerce in Gaza all need to go.


Those will be lifted, I think, once Hamas is gone and Gaza is hopefully placed under international control.

As for Xinjiang, how exactly does it support your proposal? Should Israel do the same i.e. de-Islamize Palestinians? Or are we going to pretend that isn't part of China's response there, along with the repression of dissidents?

Also, Netanyahu was pushing for "economic peace" with the Palestinians. That's not a bad thing, but economic measures alone won't solve this conflict. There must also be a political solution and security guarantees to deal with those who won't accept it no matter what.

If anything, it seems some of the Gazans allowed to work in Israel were in fact Hamas members (without Israeli intelligence knowing).

Fasces wrote:Sure, and I support an international force doing so because I do not trust Israel to do it right. Nonetheless, Israel would still need to do what I described above or the marginalization of the Palestinean people will continue even under an international government, and new extremists would continue to be Gaza's only notable export.


Sure, I don't disagree with you here.

I also don't think Israel should occupy Gaza permanently. It must be made clear the 2005 withdrawal was permanent and the situation in the West Bank also shows Israeli extremists will try to settle Gaza again if Israel remains there indefinitely.

However, those measures alone won't end the conflict. There must also be pressure on both Israel and the Palestinian Authority to make concessions.

An effective international peacekeeping force would justify pressuring Israel to give up on a permanent military presence in the Jordan Valley, for example.
#15297469
wat0n wrote: The US' reaction to the last major attack on its soil was not radically different from Israel's.


Two generations later, how is Afghanistan and it's relation ship with Islamism? :eh:

wat0n wrote: As for Xinjiang, how exactly does it support your proposal? Should Israel do the same i.e. de-Islamize Palestinians?


Educate and employ Palestineans vs bombing them? Is this a serious question?

How many significant terrorist attacks are there against China since the Uyghur stabbings? How many Uyghers are joining ETIM and other terror organizations compared to twenty years ago?

wat0n wrote: If anything, it seems some of the Gazans allowed to work in Israel were in fact Hamas members


Yep. It won't change those already radicalized. I already acknowledged there's a "bear it" component for a couple generations as the existing radicalized populations die out.

All Israel is succeeding in doing here is radicalizing each new generation of Palestinean, and with each generation larger than the last....
#15297476
@Pants-of-dog usual technique, when you have no way to sustain your claims you just deny counterarguments were ever provided to you. Nothing new here.

Fasces wrote:Two generations later, how is Afghanistan and it's relation ship with Islamism? :eh:


Not great, but the Taliban seems to have been deterred - and that's like the most unsuccessful example.

Fasces wrote:Educate and employ Palestineans vs bombing them? Is this a serious question?

How many significant terrorist attacks are there against China since the Uyghur stabbings? How many Uyghers are joining ETIM and other terror organizations compared to twenty years ago?


You forgot the reeducation camps.

Fasces wrote:Yep. It won't change those already radicalized. I already acknowledged there's a "bear it" component for a couple generations as the existing radicalized populations die out.

All Israel is succeeding in doing here is radicalizing each new generation of Palestinean, and with each generation larger than the last....


Yet the same can be said about attacks against Israelis. Each Intifada radicalizes them more, too, and each generation is becoming larger and more religious than the last.

That's why I think there needs to be an international peacekeeping force in Gaza (and the West Bank). Yet that force wouldn't be able to topple Hamas without a war like the one we're seeing, unfortunately. That much was what the Battle for Mosul showed us. Since I don't think there are many countries who were willing to take that risk, Israel was going to be the one that would have to do the heavy lifting here - even if it had somehow signed a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority, by the way, we'd see a war as horrific as what we're witnessing because this is how urban warfare looks like in the 21st century.

Also, Hamas wouldn't just negotiate a final agreement with Israel independently regarding Gaza. It could have done so and even turned Gaza into its theocracy, destroying all armed competition with tacit Israeli support, but no.
#15297481
wat0n wrote:@Pants-of-dog usual technique, when you have no way to sustain your claims you just deny counterarguments were ever provided to you. Nothing new here.
QFT. No shit. Absence of evidence is not evidence of something, either.
#15297494
wat0n wrote:You forgot the reeducation camps.


The big crime in China isn't the schools. Attempting to deradicalize and reintegrate Islamists is commendable, and far more humane than the 'kill them all' approach championed by some in this thread and the Israeli state. Rehabilitation of radicalized individuals is possible, if difficult.

The issue is how China uses aggregate big data in a sweeping way to determine who is and isn't radicalized in the first place.

wat0n wrote:Yet the same can be said about attacks against Israelis. Each Intifada radicalizes them more, too, and each generation is becoming larger and more religious than the last.


Yet in this thread we're championing Israel as a rational actor and deginerating Hamas as a death cult. If Israel wants to be considered a responsible world power, and a rational actor, it will likely need to take the first step and stop reacting to every provocation with an overwhelming litany of human rights abuses. If it is incapable of doing so, then yes, the only way this ends is in the genocide of one party or the other, and the Jewish people are highly outnumbered and surrounded. Every generation the cycle of violence pushes on is a ticking clock for the Jewish Israeli project.

wat0n wrote:Battle for Mosul


You do know less civilians died in the 9 month seige of Mosul than have died in Gaza in the past two months? This isn't a great comparison.

fasces wrote:Less civilians died in the Battle of Mosul from 2016 to 2017, almost a year, than have died in Gaza in the last three weeks.

Perhaps it is because the Iraqi government viewed the residents as their own people that needed to be helped, and were not as callous in disregarding civilian life as Israel disregards Palestineans.


But of course, keep bringing it up like it doesn't paint the Israeli state as having an overly callous disregard for the lives of Palestineans.
#15297495
wat0n wrote:ISIS was toppled from Mosul and the rest of Iraq and Syria, I don't see why the same couldn't happen to Hamas.

Yes, ISIS still exists yet it's an empty shell of its former self. Toppling Hamas, and then taking the window opened by this to establish an international force to aid the Palestinian Authority in governing Gaza, would be the best course of action.

ISIS is not Muslim Brotherhood. I can't imagine ISIS wining an election. Muslim Brotherhood have maintained mass support in the region for over half a century now. Hamas are more akin to Banderists, yes apply enough terror and the Soviets were able to suppress them after the Second World War, but take the pressure off and they just sprung up again four decades later.
#15297496
Beren wrote:It also sounds wishful thinking. Neither Jordan nor Egypt is going to turn on Israel and the US and ally with the sinking ship captained by Putin, their populace also don't care that much actually.


As I wrote, much depends on how far bibi goes. His government would love to expel the Palestinians from Gaza and the west bank, to prevent "terrorist" groups from regenerating themselves i.e. a final solution to the Palestinian problem. Without actually killing a lot more civilians, just by severely limiting aid, he could force a lot of desperate Palestinians into sinai. Meanwhile settler terror could do much the same on the West Bank. Egypt and Jordan have publicly and adamantly opposed a palestinian exodus into their territories. If bibi forces it to happen they'd have to do something drastic like ending diplomatic relations--tantamount to a de facto end to the peace treaties.
I'm not sure Putin is finished. Iran has no problem turning to Russia; it's a decent source of arms, and support as in Syria, and it could be one for Egypt too.

China's expansion will also slow down or even stop due to the slowdown of Chinese economic growth, they'll be busy dealing with their own inner problems soon anyway.


Lol, the US has its share of internal problems...


Military might also matters a lot in the Middle East, which doesn't favour China either. Egypt and Jordan don't have to be "ready for all eventualities" regarding Israel because Israel apparently means to observe the peace treaties.


Doesn't rule out a situation where relations deteriorate leading to war. Realizing this, for many years Egypt had the Badr maneuvers in sinai. Not so long ago it was a bit funny when an Egyptian spokesman justified purchase of advanced SAMs saying they might be needed against ISIS. Last I checked, ISIS didn't even have planes.
#15297498
I was intending to write a post that Netanyahu needed to restart the fighting, but before I got around to writing it the fighting restarted. There's no doubt that 10/7 put him into a very difficult position. Predictably the attacks set off an orgy of self congratulation by Zionist Liberals as to Netanyahu's inevitable imminent demise.So is there any hope for Netanyahu?

Although it was his preference pre 10/7 to largely ignore Gaza, I think his best hope is for a protracted war in Gaza followed by an indefinite occupation. If he can make this this his policy then he can challenge the Israeli opposition to produce an alternative. A challenge they are likely to fail. Who wants to step up to police the Gaza Bantustan for the Zionist Liberals? :lol: I'm yet to see any takers.
#15297508
Rich wrote:I was intending to write a post that Netanyahu needed to restart the fighting, but before I got around to writing it the fighting restarted. There's no doubt that 10/7 put him into a very difficult position. Predictably the attacks set off an orgy of self congratulation by Zionist Liberals as to Netanyahu's inevitable imminent demise.So is there any hope for Netanyahu?

Although it was his preference pre 10/7 to largely ignore Gaza, I think his best hope is for a protracted war in Gaza followed by an indefinite occupation. If he can make this this his policy then he can challenge the Israeli opposition to produce an alternative. A challenge they are likely to fail. Who wants to step up to police the Gaza Bantustan for the Zionist Liberals? :lol: I'm yet to see any takers.


How do you see Netanyahu's political demise Rich?

I see everyone blaming him for not paying attention to the warnings. Apparently, he ignored the information thinking that is was all speculation maybe?
#15297521
Beren wrote:Sure, maybe if he nuked the place your fantasy would have a chance to materialise in the real world.


:lol: All he'd have to do is what I wrote above. The warnings of Biden and Harris are hollow, especially in an election year. The real fantasy is a lasting peace in the near east.
#15297523
starman2003 wrote::lol: All he'd have to do is what I wrote above. The warnings of Biden and Harris are hollow, especially in an election year. The real fantasy is a lasting peace in the near east.

What you wrote above is mere fantasy. Even if a Palestinian exodus happened to Egypt or Jordan, they'd ask the US and Israel for money or assistance or whatever else rather than ceasing the peace treaties with Israel. They'd also vehemently ask Israel to stop the violence, of course, but I wonder if they'd go further than that.
#15297525
Pants-of-Dog wrote:Please provide counter-evidence for the evidence that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing.
As there is no evidence of genocide we don't have provide the evidence of its absence, at your idiotic request. :knife:

The evidence presented has clearly shown that the people looking for genocide is Hamas and they don't care if they have to martyr all Palestinians to do so. They have stated as such(the interview has been provided more than once on this thread).

You are the supporter of terrorists with genocidal ambitions, if you are supporting Hamas. That's simply fact.
#15297530
@Pants-of-dog we've also gone through this. Stop pretending otherwise.

Fasces wrote:The big crime in China isn't the schools. Attempting to deradicalize and reintegrate Islamists is commendable, and far more humane than the 'kill them all' approach championed by some in this thread and the Israeli state. Rehabilitation of radicalized individuals is possible, if difficult.

The issue is how China uses aggregate big data in a sweeping way to determine who is and isn't radicalized in the first place.


Calling the camps "schools" is disingenuous.

Fasces wrote:Yet in this thread we're championing Israel as a rational actor and deginerating Hamas as a death cult. If Israel wants to be considered a responsible world power, and a rational actor, it will likely need to take the first step and stop reacting to every provocation with an overwhelming litany of human rights abuses. If it is incapable of doing so, then yes, the only way this ends is in the genocide of one party or the other, and the Jewish people are highly outnumbered and surrounded. Every generation the cycle of violence pushes on is a ticking clock for the Jewish Israeli project.


The October 7 massacre wasn't just a mere "provocation" :roll:

I also think Israel isn't as rational as one would like - at least that's what one can deduce from the whole settlement enterprise. Israel is a lot more amenable to a solution than Hamas is, but it's far from perfect since Israeli settlements objectively contribute to tensions.

Fasces wrote:You do know less civilians died in the 9 month seige of Mosul than have died in Gaza in the past two months? This isn't a great comparison.

But of course, keep bringing it up like it doesn't paint the Israeli state as having an overly callous disregard for the lives of Palestineans.


The situation (as in, the geography, the fact more civilians were able to evacuate Mosul, etc) is different between both - yet the the attackers' actions haven't been qualitatively different.

Whatever regard Israel has had for Palestinian civilians is not radically different from the one shown by the Coalition for Mosul's civilians.

Rich wrote:ISIS is not Muslim Brotherhood. I can't imagine ISIS wining an election. Muslim Brotherhood have maintained mass support in the region for over half a century now. Hamas are more akin to Banderists, yes apply enough terror and the Soviets were able to suppress them after the Second World War, but take the pressure off and they just sprung up again four decades later.


I don't know if there's such a clean analogy between both. But I don't think Zelensky can be described as a Banderist.
#15297531
wat0n wrote:
Calling the camps "schools" is disingenuous.


Essentially every 'camp' identified by Zenz and the China Tribunal by satellite imagery turned out to be a school, a vocational center, and in a single case, a prison. The 'markers' that proved them to be 'camps' (walls and a security booth at the main entrance) are standard for all Chinese campuses inside and outside of Xinjiang.



wat0n wrote: The October 7 massacre wasn't just a mere "provocation" :roll:


They were nothing else. Their objective was to provoke exactly what occurred, satisfying Hamas leadership and radicalizing a new generation.

wat0n wrote: The situation (as in, the geography, the fact more civilians were able to evacuate Mosul, etc) is different between both - yet the the attackers' actions haven't been qualitatively different.


Palestinean citizens aren't allowed to evacuate, which is a point against Israel.

wat0n wrote: Whatever regard Israel has had for Palestinian civilians is not radically different from the one shown by the Coalition for Mosul's civilians.


The coalition did not lead the operation against ISIS in Mosul.

In any case, you're begging the question - Coalition operations in Iraq also often approached what I consider to be criminal behavior and I support the extradition of much of the Bush administration to the ICC.
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