Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 103 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15297595
@Godstud

Bless your heart for not picking up on ...

UN rights chief says war crimes committed on both sides of Israel-Hamas conflict.

— Reuters, Cairo Nov 8

and the

Spanish prime minister says he doubts Israel is respecting international law

— Guardian Nov 23


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 05 Dec 2023 14:52, edited 1 time in total.
#15297599
@Godstud

No. While Israel may also be committing genocide, ethnic cleansing is what I am talking about.

Ethnic cleansing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

——————-

@Godstud
@wat0n

Now, the evidence for ethnic cleansing is two policy papers discussing the removal of the Arab population of Gaza, the comments made by several Israeli officials, the ongoing violence targeting civilians, and the refusal of right to return for Palestinians who flee abroad.

The only counter argument is that Egypt will not like it. This has been addressed.
#15297601
The counter argument that the population is not decreasing in the required manner to support claims of ethnic cleansing and genocide has already been addressed in this thread. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend this counter argument has not been addressed and bring it up again.

Nor does it refute the claim. All it does is show that the gambit is not successful yet.

And the reason for the lack of mass exodus is because the Egyptian government believes that Usrael is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza and refuses to be complicit.

Again, this behaviour on Egypt’s part corroborates the claim of ethnic cleansing. This has also been brought up already in this thread, and again, it is intellectually dishonest to pretend this is not already known.
#15297604
starman2003 wrote:They wouldn't openly abrogate the treaties (yet) but just cease diplomatic and other relations

Sure, they'd do lots of diplomatic virtue signaling and stop cooperating with Israel on many issues perhaps but the peace treaties still would remain intact because they're US allies too and mean to keep it that way. However, the US apparently doesn't let Israel do ethnic cleansing considering its partnership with Arab countries and its own public.
#15297606
wat0n wrote:They also share common enemies with Israel, like Hamas itself.

But the idea is that Israel would become the common enemy then. However, everyone knows Hamas didn't act on its own, like Maduro also doesn't act on its own in South America. It wasn't just a desperate spontaneous prison break, it rather was a well-calculated provocation.
#15297614
The Liberal is at it again.

As I've said before the narcissism of the Liberal means that no fantasy is too pathetic if it serves the Liberals psychological needs, That latest pathetic fantasy is the bad or evil Palestinian. Everyone's had enough of those unreasonable people including the other Arabs says the Liberal.

Um? :?: The bad or evil Palestinian as compared to the good Egyptian. :lol: You know the Egyptians who voted for the Muslim Brotherhood as the biggest party. Ah there you go says the Liberal they didn't win a majority. No but that they had a majority with the more extremely Islamist, Islamic Bloc.

The evil Palestinians as opposed to the good Syrians. Of course unfortunately the Muslim Brotherhood were a major force in Syria. But a lot of Sunni Arab Syrians hated the Muslim Brotherhood. True enough a lot of Syrians joined Al Nusra and the Islamic State, but I'm not totally sure they were the good guys.

Then there's the violent hate filled Palestinians as opposed to the moderate, reasonable peace loving Libyans. And the Algerians, another Sunni Arab nation, no history of any Islamic extremism there.

And what about Saudi Arabia, why can't the Palestinians be nice moderate progressive peoples like the Saudis. If the Jews had chosen to build their homeland in Saudis Arabia I can't imagine the Saudis responding in a violent, bigoted and hateful way. Why have the Palestinians had this strange response to the Jewish state, so uncharacteristic of the way Arabs and Sunni Muslims normally behave. It can't be anything that the Jews have done, because we know they're the innocents of history.
#15297615
@wat0n,
wat0n wrote:If there's no mass exodus, how can there be any ethnic cleansing?

Again, sounds like a dog whistle to justify committing massacres and mass rapes against Israelis.


The result doesn't equal the intention. Never mind that the Palestinians being in Gaza in the first place is a result of their ethnic cleansing. There are many Israelis, some in government, who clearly would like to see the complete expulsion of Palestinians from the Palestinian authorities and taken for themselves. This is more obvious in the West Bank, but the idea that because Palestinians have had the grit to hang on means there has been no attempt at ethnic cleansing is bizarre.

The crux of your argument seems to be 'Israel has to nullify the security threat'. That is how people would frame Deir Yassin. The atrocities of October 7th were absolutely atrocities, but don't fall for the Douglas Murray bullshit that this was somehow above and beyond anything we've ever seen.
#15297618
albionfagan wrote:@wat0n,

The result doesn't equal the intention. Never mind that the Palestinians being in Gaza in the first place is a result of their ethnic cleansing. There are many Israelis, some in government, who clearly would like to see the complete expulsion of Palestinians from the Palestinian authorities and taken for themselves. This is more obvious in the West Bank, but the idea that because Palestinians have had the grit to hang on means there has been no attempt at ethnic cleansing is bizarre.


I don't doubt people like Ben-Gvir would want to do that, but I care more about results here. We're not seeing mass expulsions or flight of Gazans into Egypt, which is the only place they can go to. Regardless of what far-right Israeli politicians want, this isn't happening because the Israeli security establishment is fully aware it would jeopardize peace with Egypt - and keeping the peace with Egypt far more important than pandering to the brutality of the Israeli ultra-nationalists.

This isn't simply about Gazans having grit.

albionfagan wrote:The crux of your argument seems to be 'Israel has to nullify the security threat'. That is how people would frame Deir Yassin. The atrocities of October 7th were absolutely atrocities, but don't fall for the Douglas Murray bullshit that this was somehow above and beyond anything we've ever seen.


Deir Yassin wasn't about nullifying any threats though. It was a massacre through and through.

October 7th is not unique for the Middle East, it is reminiscent of ISIS massacres in Syria and Iraq. But it's not something we'd seen in Israel or Palestine since at least the 1950s, and at a larger scale too.
#15297632
No, @Rich, the fantasy is the GOOD Palestine, full of lovely Hamas people who use their own people as martyrs/shields for their cause(genocide of Israel), while throwing LGBTQ people off buildings, and killing Palestinians who try to flee a warzone that they created with the Oct 7 terrorist attack. The Israelis are no more guilty of Oct 7 than Americans are for 9/11.

The "liberal fantasy" is the one where Israel is "evil". You are just confused.
#15297644
Godstud wrote:no more guilty of Oct 7 than Americans are for 9/11

The Americans were guilty.

For them, every problem was a nail; every solution a hammer

If you piss off enough people, the worm turns.

ISIS massacres in Syria and Iraq

The Americans were paying ISIS ($500 million) to massacre in Syria.


:lol:
#15297646
Godstud wrote:No, @Rich, the fantasy is the GOOD Palestine, full of lovely Hamas people who use their own people as martyrs/shields for their cause(genocide of Israel),

Now that is the filthy Liberal lie. The pathetic fantasy world of so many Liberals that this must all be about evil Palestinians. That they have to pretend that there's been no aggression by the the Israelis. Hamas's cause is the restoration of Muslim rule and a Palestinian state from the river to the sea. I can well believe that they would be willing to commit a genocide in order to achieve their cause, but that is very different thing from saying that genocide of Jews is their cause.

while throwing LGBTQ people off buildings,

Fine if you want to call them evil for doing this, just don't try and make out this is some special Palestinian thing. If the Palestinians are evil because of this so are most Arabs, so in fact are a lot of Muslims.

The "liberal fantasy" is the one where Israel is "evil". You are just confused.

No I'm not confused. Its you who seems to lack basic reading comprehension. I have repeatedly stated that certain things don't make them evil. I'm not one of the people who even believes in an objective human morality across time and space. If you want to see how fundamentally delusional the Liberal is just watch some Star Trek. So many Liberals believe in an objective morality not just across time and space, but across time and Space.
#15297650
Beren wrote:Sure, they'd do lots of diplomatic virtue signaling and stop cooperating with Israel on many issues perhaps but the peace treaties still would remain intact because they're US allies too and mean to keep it that way.


If diplomatic and economic ties are cut or seriously impaired that's tantamount to ending the treaties. I'm not saying Egypt or Jordan would go to war (right away) if Israel drove Palestinians across the borders. But it would be a watershed IMO; arab governments would have no choice but to take serious action at a time of boiling passions. Not to do so would invite eventual overthrow and replacement--which might happen anyway in the likely event the masses don't think they're going far enough.


However, the US apparently doesn't let Israel do ethnic cleansing considering its partnership with Arab countries and its own public.


Unfortunately AIPAC and similar groups have such a grip on DC Israel has virtual carte blanche. Given the power of zionist$ and voters there's no shortage of cowards and whores who'd exculpate Israel no matter what it does. Haley and graham are among the worst but it's pretty much the norm...
#15297651
starman2003 wrote:arab governments would have no choice but to take serious action at a time of boiling passions. Not to do so would invite eventual overthrow and replacement--which might happen anyway in the likely event the masses don't think they're going far enough.

By taking serious action do you mean clamping down on their own people? :lol:

starman2003 wrote:Israel has virtual carte blanche.

Would you actually like them to have it?
#15297652
Beren wrote:By taking serious action do you mean clamping down on their own people? :lol:


This just out:
"Officials say the forcible expulsion of Palestinians would amount to a declaration of war and prompt Jordan to suspend its peace treaty with Israel."
#15297653
starman2003 wrote:This just out:
"Officials say the forcible expulsion of Palestinians would amount to a declaration of war and prompt Jordan to suspend its peace treaty with Israel."

I wonder if they're just bluffing, but what would suspending the peace treaty mean exactly anyway?
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