Argentina elects chainsaw-wielding libertarian - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15297685
Tainari88 wrote:Neoliberalism in the criticism section is quite specific have you read the issues with that?

If you have no access to a free, publicly funded education and no right to safe shelter, clean water, or safe food because no one has any economically guaranteed rights then how are you protecting human rights? Did you read the United Nations Human Rights charter. It is basically socialism 101.


You do have access to all of those in Chile.

For instance, water:

Image

Tainari88 wrote:That is a lie. The vast majority of human rights violators have been right wing fascists and dictators propped up via Kissinger and the DC crowd. La Guerra Sucia in Argentina was the Right Wing. Fascists. Same with Pinochet, same with Somoza, the Death Squads in Guatemala, the Right Wing fascists in Brazil, the right wing in Peru, the right wing in Colombia, the right wing in many countries. We could be here all day. But the vast majority of nations in Latin America the disappearances and kidnappings, rapes and murders have been the Right. If you deny that? Bring on the evidence. Argentina had La Guerra Sucia. Las madres de la plaza de mayo were the mothers of students, and writers, musicians, trade unionists, and just anyone that was not on board with the fascist agenda then. 30,000 people. How many are dead in Gaza now? Double that number. The socialists in Latin America who were democratically elected have all been pressured hard.

Jose Mujica in Uruguay was he a fascist? No. Does he have a bloody presidency left behind? No. How about Straussner in Paraguay? Fascist of the worst sort that man was.

So where is the supposedly democratically elected socialists the ones doing the 30,000 murders and blood filled numbers in Latin America?


I said "socialists", not that they were democratically elected.

Cuba: 7,944 killed by the Cuban government since the Revolution

Venezuela: At least 12,000 since 1999, others claim 19,000 only in 2016-2019.

Nicaragua: Up to 568 killed in the 2018 protests

Etc, etc. And unlike the right-wing dictatorships, these guys are currently in power - they're not history (for now).
#15297728
wat0n wrote:And socialism is even more strongly correlated with human rights violation, and with lack of democracy too.

One cannot be against neoliberalism arguing a poor human rights record while at the same time identifying as socialist.


Yes, one can correctly point out that neoliberalism is correlated with human rights violations even if Pinochetistas think it is hypocritical.
#15297730
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, one can correctly point out that neoliberalism is correlated with human rights violations even if Pinochetistas think it is hypocritical.


It seems you are getting out of arguments if this is how you justify the human rights violations by the current socialist dictatorships.

Note Milei was elected in a free election and that all the current dictators in our region are socialist.
#15297738
wat0n wrote:You do have access to all of those in Chile.

For instance, water:

Image



I said "socialists", not that they were democratically elected.

Cuba: 7,944 killed by the Cuban government since the Revolution

Venezuela: At least 12,000 since 1999, others claim 19,000 only in 2016-2019.

Nicaragua: Up to 568 killed in the 2018 protests

Etc, etc. And unlike the right-wing dictatorships, these guys are currently in power - they're not history (for now).


@wat0n sometimes I really think you do not either listen to videos I post at all, or you do not read the information I supply you. If you did? You would not be writing these things unless your entire tactic of rebuttals is lying your ass off.

If you are lying your ass off? Why should I spend time refuting you? I will not get a productive debate on a subject, instead I will be sucked in to a whirlpool of false distortions that have no end. Sort of like Trump repeating the birther accusations of Obama not being born in the USA and to produce the birth certificate. Lol.

Did you see that first video fully? I posted it because they explain succinctly the problems with socialism that might crop up. They explain the down side of each political and economic philosophy between full Capitalism and full Communism.

The big issue with socialism that can go wrong in the wrong practice of it is corruption. Nicolas Maduro is a fine example of what happens when you have corruption by a declared socialist government. I have never liked Maduro's government. If you look up my stance on Maduro I basically said he was an incompetent and he allowed corruption to run rampant and had very weak economic policies.

Who criticized him a lot? Another socialist and very Leftist and effective ex president of South American nation. The ex prez of Uruguay José Mujica. Here is Jose Mujica on Maduro:







Maduro is not knowledge based and pragmatic like Mujica is.

There are a great variety of types of socialism. The most effective are the ones who follow incredibly well done planning and letting the society be organized with human practices but also practicalities.

You need to recognize failures and work on that hard. But the issue is about interferences from governments interested in controlling them and profiting from misery. It is not going to help the issues in the nations of the world that is far wealthier. Because in the end the immigration issue is about instability and poverty and crime and a lack of opportunities for the young working adults coming into their employment years.

You got to be balanced. That is why you need sober, balanced people like Mujica and many others on the LEFT who do not believe in bling, and exaggerated shit.

I have never been an authoritarian socialist. I am always on the side of letting people choose and have choices. In the end people will through a lot of experience find what works best for their own societies. Authoritarianism if it has to be imposed with threats from a barrel of a gun is not different from a capitalist system threatening with violence and so on to keep or retain power because they FEAR not being able to COERCE their populations.

Well educated people, working on pragmatic solutions together and being fully democratic in nature is the best policy always with a socialist platform. Now, the capitalists are far narrower in philosophy Wat0n.

Everything dealing with human relationships in a capitalist divided old and failed calcified and not dynamic society is what the European working masses fled long ago...Kings, Queens, etc. Socialism is about PROGRESSING out of these old systems that suck. Capitalism has to be about classes being divided into owners and non owners, and ruling class versus working class. It becomes like this John Cleese sketch.




Is that what you want forever and ever AMEN? I do not!!! :lol: :lol:

George Orwell visited a society in Cataluña that was set up where it was a truly democratic setup with working-class people as he called it in the SADDLE for the first time. It was very very successful.

But no one lives in an island Wat0n. We all have to deal with the systems we live under currently. We all have to start dealing with improving those societies and changing when it does not work.

That is being down-to-earth, solution-focused focused, and dedicated. Do not become corrupt. Be service oriented, and about giving a lot and serving society. Not yourself.

If you continue to lie I really have to ignore you again Wat0n. I have work to do that pays me. I got bills to pay. That is reality and the reality check all working people have to face in capitalism. Lol. :D :p
#15297745
Tainari88 wrote:@wat0n sometimes I really think you do not either listen to videos I post at all, or you do not read the information I supply you. If you did? You would not be writing these things unless your entire tactic of rebuttals is lying your ass off.

If you are lying your ass off? Why should I spend time refuting you? I will not get a productive debate on a subject, instead I will be sucked in to a whirlpool of false distortions that have no end. Sort of like Trump repeating the birther accusations of Obama not being born in the USA and to produce the birth certificate. Lol.


Which part of the post is false?

Tainari88 wrote:Did you see that first video fully? I posted it because they explain succinctly the problems with socialism that might crop up. They explain the down side of each political and economic philosophy between full Capitalism and full Communism.

The big issue with socialism that can go wrong in the wrong practice of it is corruption. Nicolas Maduro is a fine example of what happens when you have corruption by a declared socialist government. I have never liked Maduro's government. If you look up my stance on Maduro I basically said he was an incompetent and he allowed corruption to run rampant and had very weak economic policies.

Who criticized him a lot? Another socialist and very Leftist and effective ex president of South American nation. The ex prez of Uruguay José Mujica. Here is Jose Mujica on Maduro:







Maduro is not knowledge based and pragmatic like Mujica is.

There are a great variety of types of socialism. The most effective are the ones who follow incredibly well done planning and letting the society be organized with human practices but also practicalities.

You need to recognize failures and work on that hard. But the issue is about interferences from governments interested in controlling them and profiting from misery. It is not going to help the issues in the nations of the world that is far wealthier. Because in the end the immigration issue is about instability and poverty and crime and a lack of opportunities for the young working adults coming into their employment years.

You got to be balanced. That is why you need sober, balanced people like Mujica and many others on the LEFT who do not believe in bling, and exaggerated shit.

I have never been an authoritarian socialist. I am always on the side of letting people choose and have choices. In the end people will through a lot of experience find what works best for their own societies. Authoritarianism if it has to be imposed with threats from a barrel of a gun is not different from a capitalist system threatening with violence and so on to keep or retain power because they FEAR not being able to COERCE their populations.

Well educated people, working on pragmatic solutions together and being fully democratic in nature is the best policy always with a socialist platform. Now, the capitalists are far narrower in philosophy Wat0n.

Everything dealing with human relationships in a capitalist divided old and failed calcified and not dynamic society is what the European working masses fled long ago...Kings, Queens, etc. Socialism is about PROGRESSING out of these old systems that suck. Capitalism has to be about classes being divided into owners and non owners, and ruling class versus working class. It becomes like this John Cleese sketch.




Is that what you want forever and ever AMEN? I do not!!! :lol: :lol:

George Orwell visited a society in Cataluña that was set up where it was a truly democratic setup with working-class people as he called it in the SADDLE for the first time. It was very very successful.

But no one lives in an island Wat0n. We all have to deal with the systems we live under currently. We all have to start dealing with improving those societies and changing when it does not work.

That is being down-to-earth, solution-focused focused, and dedicated. Do not become corrupt. Be service oriented, and about giving a lot and serving society. Not yourself.

If you continue to lie I really have to ignore you again Wat0n. I have work to do that pays me. I got bills to pay. That is reality and the reality check all working people have to face in capitalism. Lol. :D :p


Why can't this charity be granted to capitalists and specifically neoliberals? Also, which Latin American countries have had neoliberal governments since 1990 in your view?

@Pants-of-dog it is not whataboutism to point out these dictators are still ruling and indeed killing people.
#15297755
The theoretical framework seems pretty clear.

Neoliberalism leads to economic inequality.

Income inequality leads to more violent crime.

More violence leads to more.cops and more power to law enforcement.

More cops with more power leads to more human rights abuses.
#15297761
I think these two quotes juxtaposed... shines a bit of light on the WHY of this election.

After a rant about the importance of having a post-industrial economy, JohnRawls wrote:...The only 2 things that actually consumes raw resources out of things that you use is perhaps your car (Since it takes a lot of them to make it and use it) and your House....


You seem unable to conceive of what humans actually need. They don't need non-stop innovation or marketing of same. They need food, agriculture, clothing, transportation, etc.

Image
left and right

Tainari88 wrote:...The vast majority of Latin America is working class.

It fails the vast majority. I am about fixing issues for the vast majority. ...


And the entire population is... human. They need human things, NOT post-industrial economies full of work-from-home data processors. Being unable to identify what human beings actually need... has created monster governance in a lot of the world.

Chainsaws or trees - which does humanity need more of?

Texts or reality?
Public Relations campaigns, or public education?
Scapegoating or real consultation and choice?
#15297765
QatzelOk wrote:I think these two quotes juxtaposed... shines a bit of light on the WHY of this election.



You seem unable to conceive of what humans actually need. They don't need non-stop innovation or marketing of same. They need food, agriculture, clothing, transportation, etc.

Image
left and right



And the entire population is... human. They need human things, NOT post-industrial economies full of work-from-home data processors. Being unable to identify what human beings actually need... has created monster governance in a lot of the world.

Chainsaws or trees - which does humanity need more of?

Texts or reality?
Public Relations campaigns, or public education?
Scapegoating or real consultation and choice?


I am short on time and I see your points here Q.

So, let me get to the point?

I just saw a video on Netflix about all the creatures who came before homo sapiens on planet Earth. The vast majority 99% have gone extinct. Almost all the species who once thrived on Earth are now gone. Due to many reasons. But the essence is that the conditions that exist and how those conditions exist dictate what happens within that human practice or criteria.

If there is a lot of technology and it is detrimental will this cause mass extinction of humanity. It might do that Q.

Could a small percentage of humans then bounce back while a large percentage go extinct. Yes it could happen.

Humans and technology are related. Technology is a byproduct of human the toolmaker. The innovator.

Now, let us take an example of why the English or the Afrikaaners were able to take over South Africa and colonize South African tribes that were always incredibly successful at surviving their natural environment and being able to live within their means...adapting and being able to raise their progeny on how to find food, build shelters, grow medicinal plants, interpret their worlds with a lot of success. But some new invention called a gun or guns from Europe was effective at overtaking them. Imposing through military technology a colonial regime. Violence. Imposed.

How do you adapt to what other human societies invent to be able to impose and force a way of life, a language, a value system and a lifestyle?

One has to examine value systems in human history. How do they get replaced with different value systems over time? The conditions change. The circumstances change. The environment forces change.

So is technology going to survive an age of waste, climate change, pollution, and alienation and reliance on computers, machines and artificial intelligence?

It depend on what is coming down the road Q...

Trevor Noah on why the Zulu and the Xhoso were great warriors but the bullets and the guns were a harder technology to overcome. In the end? Resisting what is not of good value for all and creating a more human value system is usually the best choice out of that dilemma Q. They adapt to the new situation. A great human quality.

The Clip with Stephen Fry:

#15297775
The whataboutism in this thread is astounding honestly.

If Argentinas problem was some kind of societal equality then I would understand how a LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC LEFT LEANING party would be okay but that is not the problem of Argentina. Its main problem is economic growth, economic stability and large corruption. No socialist leaning regime in South Americas History has ever produced world beating levels of prosperity, arguably it hasn't happened anywhere in the world also unless you want to count Scandinavian Liberal Social Democrats. Arguably Socialist regimes have been the champions at spreading corruption in Latin America.

The culprit at hand can help with growth. Can he help with economic stability? Meh may be but probably not considering his idea was kinda tried and failed at the start of the 90s to replace the currency with dollar. Regarding the corruption, here probably yes more than no. Since government corruption is the main source of Argentinas corruption and all the institutions that are full of it. So cutting them by default will decrease corruption.

He ain't perfect but best that Argentina got right now considering their problems.
#15297786
wat0n wrote:Socialist regimes in Latin America have not delivered on their promises of building egalitarian societies either.

Well it depends, some do, some don't. The most unequal regimes are dictatorships like Russia or China. But even a moderately democratic liberal left leaning if not socialist regimes do wonders in this regard culturally and societally.
#15297787
JohnRawls wrote:Well it depends, some do, some don't. The most unequal regimes are dictatorships like Russia or China. But even a moderately democratic liberal left leaning if not socialist regimes do wonders in this regard culturally and societally.


Those social democracies are often explicitly said to be fake socialism by our far left, since they are capitalist.
#15297800
Tainari88 wrote:I just saw a video on Netflix about all the creatures who came before homo sapiens on planet Earth. The vast majority 99% have gone extinct. Almost all the species who once thrived on Earth are now gone. Due to many reasons....


By far the most important reason for extinctions is "change of environmental conditions." But no other species has knowingly destroyed its own life-support system like "the tool-maker" has.

Humans and technology are related. Technology is a byproduct of human the toolmaker. The innovator.

That human-the-toolmaker is only 10,000 years old. We lived a million years as human-just another animal" for 99.9 % of the time we've existed as a species. The tool-maker part of our existence might be the announcement of our own self-imposed extinction. It certainly looks this way in 2023.

The conditions change. The circumstances change. The environment forces change.

Look at how we humans and our technologies have changed conditions. Argentina is a bankrupt mess of poverty and hopelessly naive politics. It is bankrupt beyond hope. Its people just voted for a cartoon character who will bankrupt the country even harder.

All those technologies and the power they gave certain people and gangs... have lead us to a moment in time where the end is visible, and nihilism is the cutting edge of politics (rather than hope).

This election seems like a huge "fuck it!" by the poor masses of Argentina, and countries like the one I'm in are probably seeing our own futures acted out in front of our distracted eyes...

***

wat0n wrote:Socialist regimes in Latin America have not delivered on their promises of building egalitarian societies either.

Cuba is far more egalitarian than the US or Canada. A better point is that some Latin American countries seem to have an elite left-wing class that is as useless to their countrymen as the worst oligarch classes are.

But please don't suggest that no Latin American leftist government has succeeded in equalizing income and opportunity. This is too blatantly false and propaganda-ish.
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