Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 107 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15297931
Beren wrote:They'd rather try to push them back, it'd be easier and more useful.


Doing that would however require Egyptian military action and likely taking over parts of Gaza too.

Sandzak wrote:Egypt could simply allow weapons to be smuggled to Gaza... After the onslaught Hamas has several houndred thousand recruits...

The Gaza war and USA's unconditional support for Israel came many Muslim state to the conclusion an aliance with Russia and China is better then the West. Look how Putin was welcomed in UAE and Saudi Arabia


Egypt won't allow the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood arm itself.

Also, the UAE has not broken relations with Israel, there's even a small Israeli delegation at COP28 there.

Istanbuller wrote:Are you kidding? :lol: No. Egyptian dictator won't allow Egyptian-Israeli relations go broke. Sisi is very much pro-Israel.

Gaza won't get any help from Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood is not in power. There was a military coup back ün 2013, remember, guys? :lol:


Yet those relations would go to shit if Israel did something like pushing 2 million Gazans into its territory, including thousands of Hamas members.

In fact, it's precisely because Israel has no interest in harming Egyptian security and losing its support that it won't push Gazans out. Al Sisi wants to see Hamas defeated too, even better if it's at a little cost to him.

QatzelOk wrote:Denied agency by Israeli apartheid rulers... Palestinians are treated like lab rats by people who play with war, genocide and racism like these were games.

"If the mouse follow the cheese we put in the maze, and if they run away from all the electro-shock devices that we use to torture them... they will be temporarily safe, and ready for our next self-empowering experiment on them."


The only ones treating Palestinians like lab rats are those using them as human shields - that is, Hamas and its sponsors Iran, Turkey and Qatar.

Was Hamas giving agency to Gazans when they repressed their protests in 2019 and also earlier this year?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Gaza ... c_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Gaza ... c_protests
#15297936
wat0n wrote:Doing that would however require Egyptian military action and likely taking over parts of Gaza too.

Egyptian military has no capability to do that. It was reduced to a puppet army after 2013 military coup. Elimination of everything that could pose a threat to Israel was the main point of military coup of 2013.

The only ones treating Palestinians like lab rats are those using them as human shields - that is, Hamas and its sponsors Iran, Turkey and Qatar.

Was Hamas giving agency to Gazans when they repressed their protests in 2019 and also earlier this year?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Gaza ... c_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Gaza ... c_protests

Are you telling us that it was "Iran, Turkey and Qatar" who put Gazans in an open air prison for 70+ years? Are you telling us that it is "Iran, Turkey and Qatar" who kill Palestinians and Gazans for 70 years and trying to steal their land?
#15297941
Istanbuller wrote:Egyptian military has no capability to do that. It was reduced to a puppet army after 2013 military coup. Elimination of everything that could pose a threat to Israel was the main point of military coup of 2013.


The Egyptian military definitely has the capability to that. But why do it when Israel's doing all the dirty job?

Istanbuller wrote:Are you telling us that it was "Iran, Turkey and Qatar" who put Gazans in an open air prison for 70+ years? Are you telling us that it is "Iran, Turkey and Qatar" who kill Palestinians and Gazans for 70 years and trying to steal their land?


Who's trying to steal their land? Israel isn't, given it left Gaza in 2005. Egypt isn't either, and it never annexed Gaza prior to 1967 (unlike Jordan which annexed the West Bank).

One of the reasons why Hamas still rules Gaza today is the support it gets from Iran, Turkey and Qatar. If Hamas didn't rule Gaza or just negotiated a final status agreement with Israel and cut itself off from the Muslim Brotherhood, Israel and Egypt wouldn't need to blockade it. Yet they don't feel like they need to because they do have plenty of support from those three.
#15297965
Beren wrote:It'd last for a while indeed before relations would be normalised somehow.


Somehow…maybe by magic or something. :)


Egyptian objections matter to the US, though, so the US doesn't let Israel drive out the Gazans.


For quite some time, the US government has been effectively shanghaied by those who consider zionist interests paramount. America just vetoed a cease fire resolution supported by 13 other nations…Israel's current government seems to be ignoring US requests regarding civilian casualties, and no wonder. Given the totally screwed up nature of our domestic politics, Israel has virtual carte blanche and knows it...


They still can prevent them from ethnic cleansing.


Ethnic cleansing has been underway on a limited scale for some time. Since October 7 the zionists have had the pretext they need to speed things up...

They'd rather try to push them back, it'd be easier and more useful.


The difference is, Israel can kill them without much real blowback...
#15297966
wat0n wrote:The Egyptian military definitely has the capability to that. But why do it when Israel's doing all the dirty job?

No, it doesn't have. Everything from economy to military is pretty much fucked up. Egypt shows no sing of recovering from ousting of their first demlocratically elected govnerment Muslim Brotherhood by the military junta.

Sisi promised to halt any improvement in Egypt. Keeping Egypt in mess and poverty and anti-democratic is essential to Israel's security plan.

wat0n wrote:Who's trying to steal their land? Israel isn't, given it left Gaza in 2005. Egypt isn't either, and it never annexed Gaza prior to 1967 (unlike Jordan which annexed the West Bank).

One of the reasons why Hamas still rules Gaza today is the support it gets from Iran, Turkey and Qatar. If Hamas didn't rule Gaza or just negotiated a final status agreement with Israel and cut itself off from the Muslim Brotherhood, Israel and Egypt wouldn't need to blockade it. Yet they don't feel like they need to because they do have plenty of support from those three.

Gaza was much larger than this. Terrorist Israeli State occupied part of it and now they try to get rid of entire Gaza.
wat0n wrote:One of the reasons why Hamas still rules Gaza today is the support it gets from Iran, Turkey and Qatar. If Hamas didn't rule Gaza or just negotiated a final status agreement with Israel and cut itself off from the Muslim Brotherhood, Israel and Egypt wouldn't need to blockade it. Yet they don't feel like they need to because they do have plenty of support from those three.

Hamas exists because of Israel's occupation of Palestine and its barbaric approach. Hamas is the only hope of Palestinian people for independence. Religious Muslims are only ones who have courage to fight back against oppression.
#15297981
starman2003 wrote:Somehow…maybe by magic or something. :)

It'd be more prosaic than that. The world's quite a prosaic place actually, but having fantasies and repeating mantras must be helpful.

starman2003 wrote:Since October 7 the zionists have had the pretext they need to speed things up...

They may have even asked Hamas for it.
#15297983
Istanbuller wrote:No, it doesn't have. Everything from economy to military is pretty much fucked up. Egypt shows no sing of recovering from ousting of their first demlocratically elected govnerment Muslim Brotherhood by the military junta.

Sisi promised to halt any improvement in Egypt. Keeping Egypt in mess and poverty and anti-democratic is essential to Israel's security plan.


I don't see much, if any, major changes in any of these compared to Morsi or Mubarak for that matter. You're basically making things up.

Now, if you want an example of someone who has really destroyed an economy, just look at Erdogan.

Istanbuller wrote:Gaza was much larger than this. Terrorist Israeli State occupied part of it and now they try to get rid of entire Gaza.


Not really, Gaza has always been small.

Istanbuller wrote:Hamas exists because of Israel's occupation of Palestine and its barbaric approach. Hamas is the only hope of Palestinian people for independence. Religious Muslims are only ones who have courage to fight back against oppression.


Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, it would still exist regardless of anything Israel does simply because they represent an ideology that is much broader than Israel/Palestine.
#15297987
The whole point of the concept of genocide is to enable atrocities. The whole point of the term. the category of genocide is to enable atrocities and interventions by western states in general and the Jewish state in particular. The thinking of the Liberal elite goes something like this. We are very unlikely to want to do genocide ourselves directly, so demonising it is not a big sacrifice. Sometimes it may be useful for our allies to commit genocide. For example it could be argued that Saddam had a genocidal policy towards the Kurds. But in that kind of case we can just obfuscate and say its not proven, at the worst we'll have to describe it as regrettable. Of course later if that ally becomes an enemy, we can always discover it was genocide at a later date, which will give us moral ammunition to go after our previous ally.

I must note here the complication of the principle that Ronald Reagan elucidated that sometimes our Zionist hand doesn't know what our ultra Zionist hand is doing. So your average Zionist would have supported Saddam's war against evil Jew hating Iran. However the ultra Zionists were actually supporting Iran. Its the same way that in Syria, the average Zionist was supporting the overthrow of the evil Israel hatin "terrorist" supporting Assad regime, while the ultra Zionists had worked out that as much as they disliked him it was in Israel's interests for the regime to survive,

Anyway returning to genocide, nuclear war is the one case when our leaders might want to actually commit a genocide themselves, but that's OK because accusations of war crimes will be the least of anyone's worries in the aftermath of a nuclear war. So while the Jewish state committing genocide in Gaza seems to me extremely unlikely, the spectre of Jews being genocided, is useful for justify blowing up and destroying the lives of Palestinians.
#15297994
OK so realistically I no one is going to be genocided anytime soon. But what of ethnic cleansing. For the Israeli government to ethnically cleanse or at least partially ethnically cleanse Gaza requires three conditions.

1 The people of Gaza have to want to leave
2 The people of Gaza have to be allowed to leave.
3 Somewhere has to accept Gazan refugees.

So the Israeli government may be on course to achieving the first two conditions. The purpose of the mass movement and re movement of Gazan is to break up and destroy their communities. Obviously if their houses and all the other community infrastructure can be physically destroyed all the better. Under this plan Hamas does not have to be permanently destroyed just suppressed to the point where they can no longer prevent the mass cleansing of Gaza. It should be noted that although Fatah are an Uncle Tom organisation even they might not be Uncle Tom enough to just allow the mass emptying of Palestinian territory.

Now if Israel can achieve the first two conditions they would still face a big challenge in achieving the third, but not impossible. If Gazans are begging to be allowed to leave, then maybe Israel could get Europe to accept them as refugees even if all the Muslim countries stood firm.
Last edited by Rich on 10 Dec 2023 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
#15297995
The fact that the IDF is not entirely successful does not disprove the claim of ethnic cleansing. This has been explained in this thread at least three times. To continue to try to refute this claim of ethnic cleansing by pointing iut hat Gazans are still alive in Gaza is deliberately dishonest by this point.

And no one disputed the facts that supoort the claim.

At best, people have explained to me why I am correct.
#15298007
@Pants-of-dog the fact that we aren't seeing mass emigration of Gazans from the Gaza Strip is already a good argument against the claims of ethnic cleansing.

If the IDF was trying to get them to leave, that would have already happened. If Egypt wouldn't take them (it won't), then the IDF could just send ships to pick Gazans up and send them to Europe (it's not like the Europeans will do anything to stop them).

What is far more reasonable to assume is that insisting on these claims despite the lack of any major population movements aims to provide post-hoc justifications for the October 7 massacre.
#15298014
wat0n wrote:If the IDF was trying to get them to leave, that would have already happened. If Egypt wouldn't take them (it won't), then the IDF could just send ships to pick Gazans up and send them to Europe (it's not like the Europeans will do anything to stop them).

The only way for Israel to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza would be to let them flee through the Negev and the Israel-Egypt border to the Sinai.
#15298016
Beren wrote:The only way for Israel to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza would be to let them flee through the Negev and the Israel-Egypt border to the Sinai.


You should tell that to the refugees arriving in Europe by boat. Kicking them to Egypt would be the most direct way of doing it, but it's hardly the only one.
#15298018
wat0n wrote:You should tell that to the refugees arriving in Europe by boat. Kicking them to Egypt would be the most direct way of doing it, but it's hardly the only one.

How many refugees have arrived to Europe that way? It can't be that many.
#15298030
wat0n wrote:I don't see much, if any, major changes in any of these compared to Morsi or Mubarak for that matter. You're basically making things up.

There are huge differences between Morsi and Mubarek &Sisi. Morsi was a politician. He was the first democratically elected president of Egypt. But Mubarek and Sisi are dictators.

wat0n wrote:Now, if you want an example of someone who has really destroyed an economy, just look at Erdogan.

No. Turkey just did what US and Western Europe did. The result is inflation everywhere. So Keynesian economics and socialism does not work.
wat0n wrote:Not really, Gaza has always been small.

No. The places where Hamas conducted an attack were parts of Gaza once upon a time.
wat0n wrote:Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, it would still exist regardless of anything Israel does simply because they represent an ideology that is much broader than Israel/Palestine.

Hamas was born as a direct result of Israel's genocide and ethnic cleansing attempts.
#15298032
wat0n wrote:By boat? Pretty much close to zero, that's the point.

My point is that it'd be very hard or almost impossible for Israel to push the Palestinians through the sea to Europe, especially if the Europeans resisted, while driving out Gazans to the Negev and then through the Israel-Egypt border would be rather easy even if Egypt actively opposed it.
#15298035
Istanbuller wrote:There are huge differences between Morsi and Mubarek &Sisi. Morsi was a politician. He was the first democratically elected president of Egypt. But Mubarek and Sisi are dictators.


Not as far as economic performance goes. Morsi didn't do much in this regard.

Istanbuller wrote:No. Turkey just did what US and Western Europe did. The result is inflation everywhere. So Keynesian economics and socialism does not work.


Neither the US nor Europe have central banks dependent on the whims of their presidents, who in any event don't claim raising interest rates increases inflation.

Istanbuller wrote:No. The places where Hamas conducted an attack were parts of Gaza once upon a time.


No, they were not. They were going to be part of the Palestinian state in the bipartition, but they just had to start and lose that war, didn't they?

Istanbuller wrote:Hamas was born as a direct result of Israel's genocide and ethnic cleansing attempts.


Wrong again. Hamas was born from Mujama al Islamiya, the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Beren wrote:My point is that it'd be very hard or almost impossible for Israel to push the Palestinians through the sea to Europe, especially if the Europeans resisted, while driving out Gazans to the Negev and then through the Israel-Egypt border would be rather easy even if Egypt actively opposed it.


Yet if Israel did so, it would end its peace treaty with Egypt at worst, destabilize a key ally at best. Hence, it does not.
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