Claudine Gay forced to resign from Harvard - Page 31 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15303347
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the new accusations were looked at by the investigators and deemed to be without merit, according to the text that you posted.

So you seem to be arguing that:

1. The review was not as in depth as you would have liked.
2. The reviewers were not as independent as you would have liked.


The investigators were not independent indeed. I recall you said so yourself to argue to the evidence I presented of an academic saying the example was indeed plagiarism. So if academics can't evaluate them, why would administrative subcommittees do?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, this is an argument from ignorance, since you have no way of knowing the actual amount of money withheld.


It is not necessary. What matters is what did Harvard's Board expect (or what it could have expected to lose), and if the amount could be recovered .

Pants-of-dog wrote:The fact that rich donors can dictate campus speech is neither surprising nor ethical.

We have already seen that there is a group who is well funded who is going on to campus to record and dox students.

We see that donors are using economic leverage to fire anyone who does not support their politics vocally enough.

What do you think the chances are that people are being fired for supporting Palestine?


And here you are still ignoring that no elite university can afford to have a President who committed misconduct, like plagiarism or worse. And yes, there are recent examples of universities firing their white male presidents for that.
#15303352
#15303363
Pants-of-dog wrote:Considering the number of people who are being fired or doxxed or harassed for supporting Palestine, there is definitely a chilling effect on public speech.

There's a big difference between supporting Palestine versus supporting Israeli genocide and/or antisemitism. Nice try though.
#15303364
Unthinking Majority wrote:There's a big difference between supporting Palestine versus supporting Israeli genocide and/or antisemitism. Nice try though.


I know.

I specifically worded it that way to show that these people are not being punished for antisemitism or supporting crimes against Israelis.

Instead, they are being punished for saying things like “the IDF is killing thousands of civilian Palestinians in a structure of settler colonialism and this must stop”.
#15303367
They've said that Israelis had the massacre coming. It seems those who get triggered over misgendering and try to ban it on campus can't handle being called out publicly for this kind of speech.

ingliz wrote:@wat0n

Are you a White supremacist?

“It’s not surprising to find that a person who is playing footsie with eugenicists is also happy to attack diversity, equity, and inclusion in higher education or a Black president of Harvard.”


:)


What does this have to do with the fact that Claudine Gay committed plagiarism?

If your argument at this point is that because Rufo said she's a plagiarist so she can't be one then you're out of luck.

Note that Rufo can be a racist and Claudine Gay can also be a plagiarizer.
#15303375
Potemkin wrote:This ‘tarnishing’ thing sounds good to me! I wonder what other pompous, stuffy institutions we can tarnish and bring down to our own level… hmm…. :excited:

So are we saying that Harvard is just not is the same class as MIT?
#15303376
As we all know that Rufo is a scumbag of the highest order, we should not be surprised that he pulled the trigger after Gay loaded the gun.

One would like to think that Harvard would have staff savvy enough to realize that whoever they place in a high visibility job at the highest visibility school in the world would be placed under the microscope. And knowing that be especially careful of who they put forward. And if that requires them to make some choices that go against the grain, well that is what they get the big money for.

The President of Harvard University. Seriously.

We live in a country (world) where racism is on the rise most obviously in the republican party and the political tactic of energizing racists is nothing new. I remember when the dixiecrats held a big piece of the Democratic Party. President Lyndon Johnson famously said:

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”


This is going on right now in the Republican Party. And they are bragging about it. And it is working. We have so-called conservatives giving the money they make at $10.00 an hour to pay a billionaire's legal bills. Why? Because Blacks, Gays, Trans, Immigrants and Antifa.
#15303377
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ter-debate

    Conservative activist Christopher Rufo, who is a close ally of Florida governor and Republican presidential candidate Ron DeSantis, hosted a social media debate in which one participant argued that conservatives should cooperate with a hypothetical white nationalist dictator “in order to destroy the power of the left”.

    ….

    Participating in the debate was Charles Haywood, a former shampoo magnate who the Guardian previously reported is a would-be “warlord” who founded a secretive, men-only fraternal society, the Society for American Civic Renewal (SACR).

    The debate concerned Haywood’s promotion of a strategy he calls “no enemies to the right”, which urges people on the right to avoid any public criticism of others in their camp, including extremists.

    Early in the Rufo-hosted discussion last Tuesday, Haywood raised the hypothetical possibility early in the discussion: “Let’s say a real white nationalist arose who had real political power … and therefore [could] be of assistance against the left.”

    Responding to the hypothetical, Haywood said: “I think that the answer is that you should cooperate with that person in order to destroy the power of the left.”

    Later in the broadcast, Haywood responded to concerns about rightwing authoritarianism by saying: “When we’re talking about people like Franco or Pinochet or even Salazar … they did kill people. They killed people justly, they killed people unjustly, and that’s just a historical fact.”

    “But,” Haywood added, “they saved a lot more people than they killed.”

Democracy seems to be less important than stopping progressives from changing the status quo.

————————-

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/chilling ... CBC%20News.

    Chilling effect': People expressing pro-Palestinian views censured, suspended from work and school

    Employers, institutions alerted to individuals supporting Palestinians in Israel-Hamas war, CBC has learned

    Restaurant staff losing their jobs for cheering on a pro-Palestinian protest. A Palestinian Canadian journalist fired for her social media posts calling for a #freepalestine. Medical residents flagged to potential hiring committees for their support of Palestinians.

    These are just some of the many instances across Canada in which employees and students have faced firings, suspensions or calls for them to not be hired based on their publicly stated political stance on the Israel-Hamas war. It's a trend that has been reported not just in Canada but also in the U.S. and Europe, and across various industries, including media, law, health care and the service sector.

    According to three Ontario-based lawyers who spoke to CBC News, some employers and institutions have been quick to take action against employees or students, creating an environment in which many are afraid they will lose their jobs or face consequences to their education if they express a political stance in favour of one side — Palestinians — during this war.

    "I can tell you personally, in the last month and a half, I've probably spoken with someone at least once a day [about this]," said Jackie Esmonde, a labour lawyer at Toronto-based firm Cavalluzzo Law. "They're not always cases that we take on, but we do have in the range of eight to 10 cases that we're actively working on at the moment.

    "I'm not seeing people making what I would consider hate speech or discriminatory speech."

    ……

    It's not always apparent which comments or actions are the source of contention for employers and universities. But in some cases, documentation seen by CBC News makes it clear which words are seen as problematic.

    Last month, the University of Ottawa suspended medical resident Dr. Yipeng Ge after he posted pro-Palestinian comments on his personal social media that resulted in internal complaints against him, according to an email sent by the university's legal counsel to Ge's lawyer seen by CBC News.

    The email references Ge's posts of the slogan "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" as one of the reasons for his suspension. The phrase, reads the email, is seen by the university as a call for the "ethnic cleansing of Jewish people from Israel."

    Some experts familiar with the origin and history of the phrase have told CBC its meaning and use is more complicated.

    On Friday, Ge announced on X that he had resigned from the board of directors of the Canadian Medical Association, saying that attempts to repair the harm caused by the CMA leadership's reaction to his posts were unsuccessful and his relationship with the CMA had become "untenable and irreparable."

    In October, a nephrologist at Mackenzie Richmond Hill Hospital in Richmond Hill, Ont., was suspended after posting pro-Palestinian views on social media and later reinstated after the hospital said it determined it was safe for him to return to work.

    Last month, according to an official email seen by CBC News, George Brown College in Toronto put Bashir Munye, a culinary instructor, on paid leave while it investigated complaints related to one of his Instagram posts.

    Munye, who has worked at the college for seven years, told CBC the school did not specify to him which post needed removing. The last post on his account related to the war, made before he was put on paid leave, uses the phrase "From the river to the sea" and the words "genocide" and "apartheid" to describe Israeli government actions against Palestinians.

    Munye said he was hurt, shocked and frightened by seeing "how [an] institution can punish you based on allegations prior [to] providing you the opportunity to either rectify yourself or having the opportunity to explain or express your own sentiments."

    In a statement to CBC, a representative of George Brown College said: "In line with our standard process upon receiving complaints, it has been concluded that there was no violation of college policies."

    Munye, Ge and others affected in the same way have hired legal representation to determine their next steps.

    …..

    Surveillance of people's public stance on Palestinians exists in private social media groups and secondary school classrooms as well.

    Screenshots sent to CBC News by a member of a closed Facebook group called Canadian Jewish Physicians show a handful of members saying they have compiled a list of 271 medical students who signed an open letter calling for a ceasefire and an end to targeting health-care facilities and workers in Gaza.

    The stated intention is to share this list with program directors ahead of residency interviews.

    Two employees at the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies — a Toronto-based non-profit human rights organization dedicated to Holocaust and antisemitism education — told CBC News that the centre's educators who teach workshops and courses in schools have been instructed to report students who make comments critical of Israel to the organization.

    CBC has agreed to keep the employees' names confidential because of a potential risk to their employment.

    Comments or questions referencing genocide or occupation of Palestinian people and "anything seen as critical of Israel at all" are to be reported to the organization, said one of the employees.

    "The idea is to contact the school, inform the school they have an antisemitism problem and pressure the school to shut down the Palestinian support [by] accusing them of antisemitism, encouraging more pro-Zionist workshops or lessons," they said.

    Both employees said these directives were communicated by centre leadership verbally during meetings with the organization's director of education and sometimes the CEO but were not written down.

    "They push for us to understand the stance of the organization, which is being pro Israel," said the second employee. "If you're not pro Israel, then you're antisemitic."

    Both said they do not and will not report these types of comments to the organization despite instructions to do so.

    The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center has not responded to CBC's repeated requests for comment about these allegations.

    ….(article continues)….

And closer to the topic, there is a big truck parked outside of Harvard showing pictures and personal information about students who have protested against the war.
#15303379
@Pants-of-dog Democracy seems to be less important than stopping progressives from changing the status quo.


And this is a surprise to you? Of course it is. And frankly it is the same on the opposite side.

Though liberals do a great deal of talking about hearing other points of view, it sometimes shocks them to learn that there are other points of view.
William F. Buckley, Jr.


The problem is not the rise of conservatism or the rise of liberalism. It is the death of centrism.
#15303384
Drlee wrote:
And this is a surprise to you? Of course it is. And frankly it is the same on the opposite side.



The problem is not the rise of conservatism or the rise of liberalism. It is the death of centrism.



Starting in the 80s, Koch's propaganda machines dragged the country to the Right. That started it. When Newt became Speaker, governing was shoved in the trunk of the car, and Republicans lusted for power. To get that, they wooed radicals. By the 90s you started hearing phrases like Rino Hunters Club, as they started pushing moderates out of the party.

Not only is the Dem story different, Clinton was part Republican.

Centrism was murdered, and if you haven't looked into the hows and whys, start with Koch and his hundred organisations.
#15303512
Pants-of-dog wrote:I know.

I specifically worded it that way to show that these people are not being punished for antisemitism or supporting crimes against Israelis.

Instead, they are being punished for saying things like “the IDF is killing thousands of civilian Palestinians in a structure of settler colonialism and this must stop”.

Give one example.
#15303513
Pants-of-dog wrote:Many donors who have used economic leverage to silence campus protesters probably consider themselves to be centrist or even progressive.

Being pro-Palestine is different than chanting "From the river to the sea...". Those people on student campuses are calling for the destruction of Israel after Jews were just massacred and taken hostage by terrorists. A bunch of them support the Oct 7 attacks as "legitimate resistance" when it's not, it's terrorism targeting civilians. If a university is going to get political and condemn the George Floyd killing, they might want to get on board denouncing Oct 7. Should academia support pro-terrorist rhetoric as free speech, or as hate speech?

If students or students groups called for the destruction of Gaza the same rules should apply.
#15303514
Drlee wrote:And this is a surprise to you? Of course it is. And frankly it is the same on the opposite side.



The problem is not the rise of conservatism or the rise of liberalism. It is the death of centrism.


@Drlee what is the center within the American spectrum of political discourse?

I come from a family that is about radicalism. Socialism in Latin American life is a radical political point of view. Dangerous to hold and very punished. Simply because it wants labor rights, human rights, a fair wage, opportunities, education for the poor and underclass that is either free and or affordable through Kindergarten up to Doctoral level studies. Fair and clean elections, fair and safe housing, clean streets, and equal pay for equal work, and taxing corporations and outright banning them all together if they refuse to put society before profits. Period.

Free universal health care. And a bunch of other RADICAL ideas.

So for me? The centrists are CRAP. In the middle of what? A little bit of wanting to be wealthy and powerful but not serve the majority in the entire world who are hungry, thirsty, without health care that is decent, who are unemployed, languish in desperation, never have enough decent educational opportunities or vocational or decent skilled work that can provide for a family and a two to three week vacation once a year and to know they can retire in peace?

That is radical?

I just came back from buying my son a snack at some drive thru. There was a man in the street at the stoplight juggling lit up on fire sticks to get money. His wife and children on the side of the street sitting down looking tired and hungry. He was performing something very difficult hoping to get handouts. I gave him what I had on me. $100 Mexican Pesos. About $6 dollars in US currency. He was very happy. He told me they could have dinner tonight. What kind of world is that? Kids going hungry with two adult parents both together trying to fend for some kind of life?

Centrist shit is going to make UBI happen for the entire planet? It will not.

I do not give one flying you know what about Centrism. All this polarization between the haves and the have nots is not going to go away with the problems that are happening now Drlee!

Not enough radicals pressuring these racist, elitists who think the way forward is conservatism that means CONSERVING the Status Quo. The Status Quo SUCKS.

You must have people on the Left who pressure and pressure the wealthy and the ones with tremendous power. The Right is about RAW POWER and not respecting the lower classes. They do not care!

Why should you not pressure them and make them crumble? What are they going to do to get rid of their racist, class conscious, shitty need to control the money and the power, and not move on urgent problems.

They do not move....they sit on their ass and get paid off.

Centrists? Part of the problem that is present Drlee in the USA is that the RADICAL LEFT has been snuffed out. There are no more Communists in the USA. No real socialists either. No LEFT that is HARD LEFT. It is all bullshit centrists and neoliberals masquerading as agents of change. They are all bought off pieces of cowardly shit politicians who do not care.

Centrists....Ave María Purísima. Dan verguenza estos políticos sin son ni ton, sin voz ni fuerza. Unos buenos inútiles son ellos.

Estúpidos que no hacen na'
#15303519
Unthinking Majority wrote:Give one example.


There are several examples listed in the previous article.

There is also Ms. Gay herself.

Here is an article about two magazine editors who were fired, the second one for retweeting an Onion article called “Dying Gazans Criticized for Not Using Last Words to Condemn Hamas”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... nan-goldin

Unthinking Majority wrote:Being pro-Palestine is different than chanting "From the river to the sea...". Those people on student campuses are calling for the destruction of Israel after Jews were just massacred and taken hostage by terrorists. A bunch of them support the Oct 7 attacks as "legitimate resistance" when it's not, it's terrorism targeting civilians. If a university is going to get political and condemn the George Floyd killing, they might want to get on board denouncing Oct 7. Should academia support pro-terrorist rhetoric as free speech, or as hate speech?

If students or students groups called for the destruction of Gaza the same rules should apply.


If Hamas’s attack is terrorism targeting civilians, then how is the IDF attack any different, and somehow exempt from criticism?
#15303532
Unthinking Majority wrote:Being pro-Palestine is different than chanting "From the river to the sea...". Those people on student campuses are calling for the destruction of Israel after Jews were just massacred and taken hostage by terrorists.


No, not necessarily. While the phrase can be interpreted as that, the most common use of that phrase is about making Palestinians free from the river to the sea. I.e. Palestinians throughout Israel and Palestine will be free .

To assume genocidal intent is incorrect.

A bunch of them support the Oct 7 attacks as "legitimate resistance" when it's not, it's terrorism targeting civilians.


It is very easy for people who are not oppressed and being killed by a foreign government to decide if something is unacceptable or illegitimate.

Why is it illegitimate in your eyes?

If a university is going to get political and condemn the George Floyd killing, they might want to get on board denouncing Oct 7. Should academia support pro-terrorist rhetoric as free speech, or as hate speech?


Many of the critics of Israel.who have been cancelled have explicitly condemned the attack and are lambasted anyway.

Denouncing the attack is not enough, it seems.

If students or students groups called for the destruction of Gaza the same rules should apply.


They will not be applied that way.

Support for Israeli settlements and the status quo is not punished anywhere in the west, even if it causing the destruction of Gaza and the rest of Palestine.
#15303597
@Tainari88

I could be inclined to agree with you except for one thing. There is not, nor has there ever been a successful radical socialist movement. Now you can dismiss this point by asserting that the forces of capitalism have successfully pounded down all of them that made the attempt but you would only be making my point.

IF we had a true left/socialist movement in the US (and we don't) the far right would simply, and quite literally kill it. I do not know if you have internalized the dreams of the 2nd Amendment crowd but we are talking people whose personal rape fantasies drive them to imagine themselves, as we used to say, "Killing a commie for Christ". They dream of wiping out the "liberal" family down the street and possessing the daughter who would not go with them to the prom. I am sorry for being so graphic but it is the real deal. These people are well and truly dangerous.

The deep irony is that they worship a system that has made them wage slaves. They have made a religion out of worshiping the likes of Musk, Trump and Beezos. They represent to these far right dream-thugs the very apotheosis of achievement. And since they worship them, they obey them. And, oddly, that is the thing that is keeping them from breaking it all to pieces. (Though they have come close and are not done yet.

Many years ago I saw an interview with a prominent black author on PBS. I apologize because I can't remember his name but I remember he had some fame in the civil rights movement. That is not important though. What he said in response to a question is.... He was asked, "Why do black people riot, burn and loot in their own neighborhoods rather than taking the fight to the white oppressor's neighborhood". Of course I expected the answer to be fear of reprisal. It wasn't. What he said has tempered my thinking for years because I think he hit to the essence of the question. He said, "people do not destroy what they value, respect and desire".

I think this is truth. They destroy what they hate, devalue and detest.

We in the US are in a period of backsliding for sure. Progress which has been hard won since the beginning of this experiment is rolling back somewhat. Radicalism though is not the answer as satisfying as it may be. Look at the news here. Behavior that was once just seen as normal kind, compassionate and caring is now painted as weakness, "wokeness" and treason. The radical left has no answer for this. They are not strong enough to face bullets with ideas and they have no bullets of their own. This has been proven true around the world.

But where IS positive change happening? Though some recent events are concerning, the Scandinavian countries have gotten much better for the overwhelming majority of their people through incremental change. Not revolution. The EU is improving life for a great many people who had no chance a mere 40 years ago. Yes. Capitalism is at the heart of this. But capitalism controlled to some degree by popular opinion and the power of the vote. Even the PRC is moving toward liberal democracy through the desire of its people to have the benefits of Capitalism and more open markets. People who tell me that China is the great threat to our way of life get an earful from me of how China just wants to be like us. Of course the CCP is reluctant to let go but they are doing just that gradually. We (the system of economics and governance) in the West are winning in the long haul. That does not mean that our military power is in the ascendant but our social power sure is.

In Central and South America the socialist movements have been dismally oppressive and utterly ineffective. Nobody wants to live in Cuba except some besotted American camp followers.

We face a real crossroads in the US these days. It is not whether we are going to be liberal or conservative. Liberalism, and you and I would imagine it, it utterly dead. We are a nation of far right conservative and center right. Our hope does not lie in an Amercian Che. It lies in the great center simply and quietly voting and moving the far right to the center.

So I get your laundry list of oppression. I know we ought to have universal health care. Of course wages should be livable. Women should take their rightful place in the political and economic future of the country. But none of this is going to happen at the tip of a bayonet. Our future is not being forged around revolutionary campfires in the hills. The campfires in the hills, around the world, are those of militias, death squads and despots. Our first, best chance of avoiding a modern version of The Hunger Games, is to quietly and firmly go to the polls and vote the right wing bastards out. And then, carefully, with the thinnest of majorities at first, take baby steps to improve the lot of the working and underclasses. Raise the minimum wage this year. Women's reproductive rights next year. Immigration reform the following year. And so progress goes. Not fast enough for you and I to see it in our lifetimes but at some time in the future, if we play our cards right, our grandchildren will see the world you imagine. Or at least one committed to making them happier.

Before Obama was elected, the country was stuck on stupid. George W. Bush had just missed Saudi Arabia and blown the shit out of a half the middle east. (He had the aim of one of Vader's troopers but then I digress.) But even Bush (who I could not help but like) gave us a massively important prescription drug plan. The largest social welfare program since Medicare. Then Obama took some baby steps and gave us the Affordable Care Act. It sucks but it is several orders of magnitude better than what we had before. And try as hard as the Republican blowhards did, they could not put that genie back in the bottle. And so it goes.

IF IF IF, Trump is finally sent packing the move to the left will be noticeable. Several states have women's reproductive rights on the ballot. And they will probably pass. And if Taylor Swift can do what no other woman in history has ever done, get young women, in great numbers, to vote their own self interest, the tide may turn even faster than we dared hope.

Republican politicians are not much different than politicians have been since the beginning of the first republican governments in history. They are keenly aware of what it takes to get elected/reelected. They understood the value of the popular local vote far better than the democrats did. They are watching. Rest assured they will back the best local horse. MAGA seems to rely on Trump. DeSantis tried to out-MAGA Trump and got his penis beaten flat in the process. Haley is going on SNL and trying to sprint to the center as fast as she can, believing that the courts are going to undo Trump for her. They might by the way. I am not holding my breath but just maybe.

So as rousing as your post was, I respectfully disagree with the process. I want what you want. I know I am too old to ever see all or even most of it. But I disagree with the process. I do not want to see a blood bath on either side. Pray my dear. Instill in the new generation a sense of quiet determination and civil responsibility. That will carry the day.

Shakespeare to Trump....
And tell the pleasant prince this mock of his Hath turned his balls to gun-stones, and his soul Shall stand sore chargèd for the wasteful vengeance That shall fly with them; for many a thousand widows Shall this his mock mock out of their dear husbands, Mock mothers from their sons, mock castles down, And some are yet ungotten and unborn That shall have cause to curse the (Dauphin’s) scorn. But this lies all within the will of God, To whom I do appeal, and in whose name Tell you the (Dauphin) I am coming on, To venge me as I may and to put forth My rightful hand in a well-hallowed cause. So get you hence in peace. And tell the Dauphin His jest will savor but of shallow wit When thousands weep more than did laugh at it.
#15303602
Drlee wrote:@Tainari88

I could be inclined to agree with you except for one thing. There is not, nor has there ever been a successful radical socialist movement. Now you can dismiss this point by asserting that the forces of capitalism have successfully pounded down all of them that made the attempt but you would only be making my point.

IF we had a true left/socialist movement in the US (and we don't) the far right would simply, and quite literally kill it. I do not know if you have internalized the dreams of the 2nd Amendment crowd but we are talking people whose personal rape fantasies drive them to imagine themselves, as we used to say, "Killing a commie for Christ". They dream of wiping out the "liberal" family down the street and possessing the daughter who would not go with them to the prom. I am sorry for being so graphic but it is the real deal. These people are well and truly dangerous.

The deep irony is that they worship a system that has made them wage slaves. They have made a religion out of worshiping the likes of Musk, Trump and Beezos. They represent to these far right dream-thugs the very apotheosis of achievement. And since they worship them, they obey them. And, oddly, that is the thing that is keeping them from breaking it all to pieces. (Though they have come close and are not done yet.

Many years ago I saw an interview with a prominent black author on PBS. I apologize because I can't remember his name but I remember he had some fame in the civil rights movement. That is not important though. What he said in response to a question is.... He was asked, "Why do black people riot, burn and loot in their own neighborhoods rather than taking the fight to the white oppressor's neighborhood". Of course I expected the answer to be fear of reprisal. It wasn't. What he said has tempered my thinking for years because I think he hit to the essence of the question. He said, "people do not destroy what they value, respect and desire".

I think this is truth. They destroy what they hate, devalue and detest.

We in the US are in a period of backsliding for sure. Progress which has been hard won since the beginning of this experiment is rolling back somewhat. Radicalism though is not the answer as satisfying as it may be. Look at the news here. Behavior that was once just seen as normal kind, compassionate and caring is now painted as weakness, "wokeness" and treason. The radical left has no answer for this. They are not strong enough to face bullets with ideas and they have no bullets of their own. This has been proven true around the world.

But where IS positive change happening? Though some recent events are concerning, the Scandinavian countries have gotten much better for the overwhelming majority of their people through incremental change. Not revolution. The EU is improving life for a great many people who had no chance a mere 40 years ago. Yes. Capitalism is at the heart of this. But capitalism controlled to some degree by popular opinion and the power of the vote. Even the PRC is moving toward liberal democracy through the desire of its people to have the benefits of Capitalism and more open markets. People who tell me that China is the great threat to our way of life get an earful from me of how China just wants to be like us. Of course the CCP is reluctant to let go but they are doing just that gradually. We (the system of economics and governance) in the West are winning in the long haul. That does not mean that our military power is in the ascendant but our social power sure is.

In Central and South America the socialist movements have been dismally oppressive and utterly ineffective. Nobody wants to live in Cuba except some besotted American camp followers.

We face a real crossroads in the US these days. It is not whether we are going to be liberal or conservative. Liberalism, and you and I would imagine it, it utterly dead. We are a nation of far right conservative and center right. Our hope does not lie in an Amercian Che. It lies in the great center simply and quietly voting and moving the far right to the center.

So I get your laundry list of oppression. I know we ought to have universal health care. Of course wages should be livable. Women should take their rightful place in the political and economic future of the country. But none of this is going to happen at the tip of a bayonet. Our future is not being forged around revolutionary campfires in the hills. The campfires in the hills, around the world, are those of militias, death squads and despots. Our first, best chance of avoiding a modern version of The Hunger Games, is to quietly and firmly go to the polls and vote the right wing bastards out. And then, carefully, with the thinnest of majorities at first, take baby steps to improve the lot of the working and underclasses. Raise the minimum wage this year. Women's reproductive rights next year. Immigration reform the following year. And so progress goes. Not fast enough for you and I to see it in our lifetimes but at some time in the future, if we play our cards right, our grandchildren will see the world you imagine. Or at least one committed to making them happier.

Before Obama was elected, the country was stuck on stupid. George W. Bush had just missed Saudi Arabia and blown the shit out of a half the middle east. (He had the aim of one of Vader's troopers but then I digress.) But even Bush (who I could not help but like) gave us a massively important prescription drug plan. The largest social welfare program since Medicare. Then Obama took some baby steps and gave us the Affordable Care Act. It sucks but it is several orders of magnitude better than what we had before. And try as hard as the Republican blowhards did, they could not put that genie back in the bottle. And so it goes.

IF IF IF, Trump is finally sent packing the move to the left will be noticeable. Several states have women's reproductive rights on the ballot. And they will probably pass. And if Taylor Swift can do what no other woman in history has ever done, get young women, in great numbers, to vote their own self interest, the tide may turn even faster than we dared hope.

Republican politicians are not much different than politicians have been since the beginning of the first republican governments in history. They are keenly aware of what it takes to get elected/reelected. They understood the value of the popular local vote far better than the democrats did. They are watching. Rest assured they will back the best local horse. MAGA seems to rely on Trump. DeSantis tried to out-MAGA Trump and got his penis beaten flat in the process. Haley is going on SNL and trying to sprint to the center as fast as she can, believing that the courts are going to undo Trump for her. They might by the way. I am not holding my breath but just maybe.

So as rousing as your post was, I respectfully disagree with the process. I want what you want. I know I am too old to ever see all or even most of it. But I disagree with the process. I do not want to see a blood bath on either side. Pray my dear. Instill in the new generation a sense of quiet determination and civil responsibility. That will carry the day.

Shakespeare to Trump....


@Drlee what is going to force a change are the same historical and material conditions that forced the end of slavery long ago. Basically the human circumstances and technological circumstances have changed.

Marx analyzed capitalism. He never said capitalism was a mistake or did not have a good aspect. Massification of production and ending a feudal slave system of production. But the problem is and was still is that it relies on endless expansion, consumption, and haves and have nots. It pits people against each other. Class struggle.

But what we see now, is that the lines are blurring Drlee. The lines are blurring and in that blurr....there is hope.

The reason socialism never took off is because in order for socialism to work it relies on cooperation, and sharing, and setting aside self interest for the good of the group. It is made for more advanced societies Drlee. Not for societies still trapped in pettiness, greed, and competitive modes of thought were the planet is raped, women are raped, kids are raped, and taking and hating is allowed because it is about the issue of war and Might is Right. Whoever has more fire power rules the world. That is a primitive, low life way of organizing human society Drlee.

And until as an entire group in the billions start changing into the cooperative mode of thought and respect mode of thought, and the empathy mode of thought? Real socialism will not be the core of all of the world. Ever.

It is only for some other planets in other star systems that went through all the reptile stages and learned enough to discard the bullshit that is false. Slavery finally lost. Not because humans grew wiser. But because the old system would not fit the challenges of a changing industrializing more modern capitalist society. Just as the old capitalist society will be discarded because trying to live on a filthy planet, that has dirty water, pollution, climate change, and mass immigration because the Third World can't live in dignity and the nations with the wealth refuse to stop interfering and stop being abusive and the backlash of that is you create instability in the world. By being selfish. The people who are fleeing that horror will wind up staring you in the face in your own nation. People are not going to lie down and die waiting for a better life. They will go where they have been told there is a better society.

Until people realize none of us are living in isolation and cooperation and caring about all human societies is what the main core of governments should be about? In other words, socialism. None of these issues will go away Drlee.

The circumstances are going to be forcing changes. That is certain.

The rapists of all sorts will find out that you can keep thinking you can go into the enemies' homes and rape them and so on...but the reality is that what you think will be easy for you to do and without any consequences will be the opposite. You fuck with enough people and take their lands, their livelihoods, their culture, their languages away, their opportunities and their hope? They will be terrorizing you and blowing your head off.

Learn before you make that deadly miscalculation.

The abusive types never learn Drlee. They never learn that we are all in this world and in this boat of human societies TOGETHER. Either realize that the superior and the inferior are all a hoax or you will find out you do not have to be a genius to pull a trigger and get revenge.

It is much simpler to solve issues with violence. It is much harder to to solve issues with dialogue and constant efforts at respect dignity and material support.

Human relationships are hard and take a lot of effort. But it is much better than killing off the opposition. That is something that has to be learned.

That is what I think.
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