Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 794 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15304032
JohnRawls wrote:I am a bit tired of going in circles in our discussions about Russia with you honestly.


I'm the one who is tired here. You are the one who repeats his circular spam 99.9% of the time while I ignore you 99.9% of the time until you spam right into my face. I only deal with you, Rugoz and all the propaganda twice a year max, while you post this same hooliganistic nonsense NON-STOP.

No matter how many times you are caught red-handed you never change, you don't even respect political dialogue and only post "us vs them" polarisation.

You are not going to convince me to change my mind and obviously I am not going to convince you to change yours irrelevant how many inconsistencies you pick in my opinions in your mind and me picking inconcistenties in your opinions in my mind.


You have not picked any inconsistencies but you post a fair amount of them.

There is only one judge in this case: time and history. Sadly we will need to wait couple of more years for this to end in favour of Ukraine and may be much more for the Russian regime to fall and the criminals to be hanged or shot.


No, the judgement for your inconsistency spam mode is totally irrelevant to the outcome of this war.

There is not going to be peace with Russia until Putinist regime is in charge, not after Ukraine, not until they become a normal decent country that actually cares about human lives and its people.


There is not going to be any peace until the western warmongers face reality. Russia lost 27 million people in WW2, believing that it will abandon ethnic-Russian areas that international treaty has already recognised as ethnic-Russian is a fool's dream that is never going to happen regardless of who is in charge in Russia. Even if Russia "loses" by magic, status quo ante applies. Donbass and Crimea remain self-determined.

"Putin being the issue" is yet another strawman that is totally inconsistent with actual reality.

Not to mention that unless you want peace with Russia, you got to remove all the Nazi ideology from Ukraine just like it is the law in Europe itself and abandon openly supporting Nazis.

And let's not even mention the US elections and the Republicans.
#15304045
@noemon wrote:

There is not going to be any peace until the western warmongers face reality.


This is what worries me the most noemon. How long is this going to take? Two years, ten years? I have a bad feeling that war is what Bush Jr told the ex-prez of Argentina in Oliver Stone's movie. Putin called Bush Sr in the interview with Tucker asshole, a pragmatic hard politician. I have known the Bush Sr and Bush Jr Bush grande and Bushito as warmongering men. They were. Bush Sr was CIA director and had a lot of information on Russian intelligence right before the fall of the USSR.

The long term game for the USA is to weaken the Russians and the Chinese and be able to strengthen the US position in the world. But without committing US troops to a ground war. They have been losing wars on the ground since Vietnam. First Vietnam, then Iraq and Afghanistan, and these Middle Eastern terrorists mostly from Saudi Arabia, not allowing the families who lost their loved ones to sue the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for the terrorism that happened within their sphere? It all paints an interesting picture.

The US is investing in a gamble of manipulating the EU, and consolidating power to try to challenge any rivals aspirations to replace them. After WWII the US emerged as the only nation standing and it has projected itself as moral leaders and military leaders. Committing troops and work to helping secure the rest of the nations of the world. The important thing is to keep the world from developing so much that it might challenge the economy or political and military positions of the USA around the world.

If they can weaken Russia with a ground war that is long and difficult and hard? They can continue another one hundred years being the unopposed leader and maybe even be able to cage the PRC and reign it in and be able to sanction it and Russia into submission.

The reality is that the EU already experienced war and domestic Nazi invasions and crap. They are going to be dealing and coping with the ones who they have to rely on for energy for the future.

What the US has to do is seek peace, and also seek stability in the entire EU, and in the rest of the world. Do not try to dominate. Just try to govern. Invest heavily in their own domestic problems. Create a long term plan for Latin America because that border issue will continue. They have neglected their neighbors. For far too long. And they have also expected all their bad Latin American policies to not have consequences that are negative for them.

Putin did say that you do not really get to choose your neighbors. You got to live with them. That is Mexico and the USA. What is going to happen? Mexico is going to vote for a socialist woman in the next elections. Leftist socialist woman president. If Nikki Haley wins or Donald Trump wins? Will they be invading Mexico because they choose something different than what the US approves of?

Putin also said that the voters do not choose a damn thing in the USA neither do the voters in Russia in the Russian Federation either. It is about the oligarchs in Russia and the Elite in the USA.

Democracy falls by the wayside there.

Power is not about some democratic vote in this scenario.

Which means you got unpredictable behavior on the part of some power players who do not really respond to figurehead politicians. It is an embedded system with a bunch of powerful actors....all after positions that are not able to adapt in time to the changing political and environmental conditions.

That war in Ukraine vs Russia is not going to be a quick resolution Noemon.

At all.
User avatar
By noemon
#15304047
Tainari88 wrote:This is what worries me the most noemon. How long is this going to take? Two years, ten years? I have a bad feeling that war is what Bush Jr told the ex-prez of Argentina in Oliver Stone's movie. Putin called Bush Sr in the interview with Tucker asshole, a pragmatic hard politician. I have known the Bush Sr and Bush Jr Bush grande and Bushito as warmongering men. They were. Bush Sr was CIA director and had a lot of information on Russian intelligence right before the fall of the USSR.


It depends on the US administration, if the same deep-state actors continue running the US, then it will take some time. Best we can do is trash their warmongering until they change their ways and the narrative changes.

And then there is the trump card of Trump, if he wins which is fairly certain that he will, there is a good chance this war will end fairly soon.
#15304048
noemon wrote:It depends on the US administration, if the same deep-state actors continue running the US, then it will take some time. Best we can do is trash their warmongering until they change their ways and the narrative changes.

And then there is the trump card of Trump, if he wins which is fairly certain that he will, there is a good chance this war will end fairly soon.


Trump might win or he might not win. But what is sure is that both political parties in the USA are abysmally incompetent at dealing with bread-and-butter issues for the American electorate.

Frankly, I think whatever happens it is going to be a disaster for Europe Noemon. The prices are going to go up and the Tories and Brexit and the consequences of those decisions are going to be deeply felt throughout the UK's economic forecast.
User avatar
By noemon
#15304049
Brexit is irrelevant now as no party intends on changing something about it.

So no point in beating a dead horse anymore.

The more Europe focuses on culture wars, energy suicide and following US policy in Ukraine, instead of its actual interests, the worse things will be.

The idea that both are the same does not actually apply in Ukraine. The Democrats want eternal war, Trump wants to finish this like closing a business deal. He should go ahead and do just that.
#15304051
noemon wrote:Brexit is irrelevant now as no party intends on changing something about it.

So no point in beating a dead horse anymore.

The more Europe focuses on culture wars, energy suicide and following US policy in Ukraine, instead of its actual interests, the worse things will be.

The idea that both are the same does not actually apply in Ukraine. The Democrats want eternal war, Trump wants to finish this like closing a business deal. He should go ahead and do just that.


You might be right about Trump and Ukraine.

He would pull out.

What the problem becomes Noemon is that the dude wants to remain forever. Though he is old and getting incoherent every year that goes by. Whoever he picks as his vice president might wind up governing.

I do not know what a dictatorship in DC is going to look like. But frankly, dictators are symptomatic of a lack of ability to compromise in one side of the political spectrum.

The side that does not want compromise is the Right in the USA.

Now, I do agree with you that the Democrats are pursuing war. The neo-fascists on the Right want to disconnect and go internal and root out any outliers to their politics. It is bad. It is dysfunctional.

I find it all strange. I am glad I live in another country.

I find more personal freedom in a nation that never will become a superpower Noemon. It is safer.
User avatar
By noemon
#15304053
Tainari88 wrote:What the problem becomes Noemon is that the dude wants to remain forever. Though he is old and getting incoherent every year that goes by. Whoever he picks as his vice president might wind up governing.


I do not believe this at all, even if he wanted to, the US constitution, Congress and Senate and even the Republican party itself have built-in systems to prevent this. I believe it is just yet another scare-mongering tactic used by his opponents with very little effect.

And besides the US is already a dictatorship run by a deep-state.

I do not know what a dictatorship in DC is going to look like. But frankly, dictators are symptomatic of a lack of ability to compromise in one side of the political spectrum.

The side that does not want compromise is the Right in the USA.


1) I doubt there is a right and a left in the US. Their only current difference is in the foreign policy and culture wars, in the economy they are the same. I'd rather take pragmatists in foreign policy and culture wars over ostriches any time of the day, especially since nothing else separates them.

2) This is symtomatic of being in opposition, when the others are in power the democrats are the ones unwilling to compromise.

On the grand scale of things, it is the democrats that have weaponised polarisation, culture wars, pronouns and deal with their perceived enemies via hooliganism, censorhip and witch-hunting. They insult their opponents and operate on hooliganistic "us vs them" mentality.

People no longer tolerate this.

Eventually, either the Americans will find consensus and the brains to engage in dialogue with one another or they will devolve in a civil war, this is mathematically proven in history.
#15304056
noemon wrote:I do not believe this at all, even if he wanted to, the US constitution, Congress and Senate and even the Republican party itself have built-in systems to prevent this. I believe it is just yet another scare-mongering tactic used by his opponents with very little effect.

And besides the US is already a dictatorship run by a deep-state.



1) I doubt there is a right and a left in the US. Their only current difference is in the foreign policy and culture wars, in the economy they are the same. I'd rather take pragmatists in foreign policy and culture wars over ostriches any time of the day, especially since nothing else separates them.

2) This is symtomatic of being in opposition, when the others are in power the democrats are the ones unwilling to compromise.

On the grand scale of things, it is the democrats that have weaponised polarisation, culture wars, pronouns and deal with their perceived enemies via hooliganism, censorhip and witch-hunting. They insult their opponents and operate on hooliganistic "us vs them" mentality.

People no longer tolerate this.

Eventually, either the Americans will find consensus and the brains to engage in dialogue with one another or they will devolve in a civil war, this is mathematically proven in history.


The problem is not the written thing that is about checks and balances Noemon. It is about saying they are following the Constitution when in reality they do not follow it in their foreign policies. They violate everything they say they will follow at home.

It becomes the way to govern. Who are the deep state people? The Intelligence community who also have connections to the corporations and to business interests and the business interests have access to the military and the government reps in the US Congress and the Senate. What happens when they all get used to toppling foreign governments in order to get their interests taken care of? The political world is a series of governments and structures. True democracy is kind of fragile Noemon. Authoritarianism and elite governance is a lot more common in governments than we would like to believe.

The US government has had tremendous success toppling the elected leaders of other nations. They also claim they are dictators and therefore need to be deposed to put in a real democratic leader. Mainly some puppet really. If you are the deep state? In the USA? Why not do it at home if you feel your opposition like the old Communist leaders or ex USSR authoritarians like the Russians might be able to cobble together some kind of strategy?

The EU sort of modeled itself a bit after the USA...a bunch of independent states depending on a strong central government who then merged currencies and economies and allowed the free travel of many different ethnicities and cultures within a swathe of territories. It then become more efficient than it once was. It is also, able to grow its economy smoothly by having about 500 million consumers and citizens in its network. The Euro is born.

If somehow the EU and the Russian and Chinese economies grow at a fast clip where might this be a problem for the USA and its position in the world over time?

Got to stop the train.

You are also dealing with a nation that is a master at propaganda. No one is better than the USA at that. Not in the history of the world.

The world changed in that arena too. Now people are on TIKTOK and Youtube and facebook and X, and so on and so forth, and you can get information from everywhere. It is not as tightly controlled by filters. So, the official version of events become a bit more problematic for the powers that be.

Soon AI is going to launch mass writing bots. Who will be hard at work mining your website for possible ways of influencing the audiences and making sure individual human beings advocating for their politics in a human way are undermined as well. By the MACHINES. Who will be trying to keep all of us at each other's throats and denying our common human frailties and therefore help the ones in charge never be deposed in the future.

You know that just might be a good premise for a science fiction novel I might write someday.

Oh, Noemon, we are living in interesting times indeed.

Never forget what the charrettes are about. Have the opposing view HUMANS fight it out with each other. In the end only other breathing people and who need sleep, need food and water, air and light....can find something to connect to and with. The machines are not living organisms.

We are the ones who are the core of life. We always will be.

I hope there is never a war that breaks over Cambridge for you. If there is?

You can stay in my home in the downtown area of where I live in Mexico.

For me, all the people who I know I have responsibilities towards always. Never let them go about the world without support. No matter what.

That is what needs to happen in this world.
#15304058
Some interesting input in this video. Note this is a solidly pro Ukrainian source. However although they are pro Ukrainian they are interested in telling the truth which means many Liberals will hate them more than pro Russian people.



American taxpayer have pumped more than $75 into Ukraine under Joe Biden's leadership. :lol: What's so funny is that Americans think that Ukrainians respect them for shoveling all this money in.

From 1:13:30 wrote:I had one Ukrainian commander told me that NATO will give the money for ever. Because NATO is stupid and gay and there's lots of dumb gay people in NATO. and they'll just keep giving us money.

Yes I think you'll find most of the people doing the fighting in Ukraine have little time for Joe Biden's trans agenda, his electric cars or his DEI.
#15304062
Rich wrote:Some interesting input in this video. Note this is a solidly pro Ukrainian source. However although they are pro Ukrainian they are interested in telling the truth which means many Liberals will hate them more than pro Russian people.



American taxpayer have pumped more than $75 into Ukraine under Joe Biden's leadership. :lol: What's so funny is that Americans think that Ukrainians respect them for shoveling all this money in.


Yes I think you'll find most of the people doing the fighting in Ukraine have little time for Joe Biden's trans agenda, his electric cars or his DEI.

And what’s really funny is that the dumb gays in the West will win in the end. The Ukrainians will fight and die for chump change and after the fighting dies down and the dust settles, the West will build gay theme parks in their new fiefdom of Ukraine to ‘celebrate diversity’, while the guys who did the fighting will be pushing up the daisies. They’ll be turning in their graves so fast we could hook them up to generators and power half the country for free! :excited:
#15304069
Rich wrote:Some interesting input in this video. Note this is a solidly pro Ukrainian source. However although they are pro Ukrainian they are interested in telling the truth which means many Liberals will hate them more than pro Russian people.



American taxpayer have pumped more than $75 into Ukraine under Joe Biden's leadership. :lol: What's so funny is that Americans think that Ukrainians respect them for shoveling all this money in.


Yes I think you'll find most of the people doing the fighting in Ukraine have little time for Joe Biden's trans agenda, his electric cars or his DEI.


Tell the truth Rich, one has to make sure the money for this war keeps flowing in. Nonstop. It is the reason for the season.

War is an industry that has to keep being supported. Forget about clean stuff. Got to go for the dirty stuff. because power needs to be fueled.

El Putin necesita sus putos dólares.

War what is it good for?

By Rich
#15304083
There's two groups of war mongers here. Those that want a total Ukrainian victory and those that want a total Russian victory. Some of the people in the West who want to see a total Russian victory and a complete humiliation of the West, may not be totally upfront about it. I suspect there are some people who use the cover of calling for negotiations as a cover for what they hope will be a Russian dictated peace. I'm not one of those people.

Both groups of war mongers act in bad faith. both groups of war mongers use the other sides unwillingness to compromise as cover for their own unwillingness to compromise. It is most important to see the illogical nature of the Liberal arguments. They say Putin is Hitler, the Russian people are Nazis, therefore they must be pushed out of all 2013 Ukrainian territory and made to pay for "their crimes", through reparations and war crimes trials. But if Putin really is Hitler, if the Russians really are a completely Nazified nation, why would they give up, just because they had been pushed out of Kruschevian Ukraine? Nazi Germany didn't surrender till Berlin and most of Versailles Germany had been occupied.

There are 2 steps to getting a peace and bringing this dreadful war to a close as soon as possible.

1 We need to get Ukraine to accept the need for an immediate ceasefire and the need to offer Russia some sanctions relief and release of siezed funds to get them to accept a ceasefire.

2 If Russia does not accept the need for an immediate ceasefire, when we ask nicely, If our carrots not good enough for Putin, then we need to start applying the stick and way, way more harshly than we have done so far. In such a scenario I would like to see things ramp up rapidly. Within 3 months we should start moving our air defence assets and troops into western Ukraine.

The problem is the longer this war drags on with these demented, hypocritical, moralistic, maximalist, war aims, the harder it will be to get western public's to back the measures needed to achieve a realistic peace.
#15304097
So what we got this year?

Russian Stability fund has decreased from 8.2 trillion of liquid assets in to rubles in to 4.9 trillion. The rest is dead weight illiquid while the remaining liquid 4.9 trillion are of two main categories: Yuan and Gold. There is no more Euros or Dollars left since they used them all in December which is marvellous. Not sure how to classify Gold but it will be the same story as with oil if they try to sell it because it is sanctioned. So either discounts or not getting sold. Yuan is a weirder topic since its controlled by China so nobody knows what will China do.

So to summarise that 4.9 trillion on paper is probably closer to 4 trillion if they try to use it. So they basically lost half in a year but realistically more. The military budget to liquid ratio went from like 3x to only 40% of the military budget. And all that while the Russian business is suffering, inflation is not even thinking of going down and the key interest rate is through the roof.

ECONOMIC COLLAPSE IS COMING.... TIK TOK TIK TOK....

I wonder if Russia can survive economically until the election and the new president in US comes to power? (January next year?) I really like how Russia is fully dependent on US and Europe choices. And its not like we are going to stop supporting Ukraine in 2025 at least from the European side :excited:

All this while apparently this years military budget should be crazy large compared to other years as they said. They will have to collapse the ruble this year by the looks of it and increase import tariff 2x-3x fold. This will be juicy.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15304207
Rich wrote:2 If Russia does not accept the need for an immediate ceasefire, when we ask nicely, If our carrots not good enough for Putin, then we need to start applying the stick and way, way more harshly than we have done so far. In such a scenario I would like to see things ramp up rapidly. Within 3 months we should start moving our air defence assets and troops into western Ukraine.


LoL, Rich. It the West was willing to move troops into Ukraine, this war would never even have started.

But glad we agree on something. :up:
By Rich
#15304211
Rugoz wrote:But glad we agree on something. :up:

What you seem so unwilling to accept is that "The West" as you call its response has been an absolute joke since the start of the SMO. In fact the West's policicies have been a total joke since 2013. Yes its all very well Nuland parachuting into Kiev to agitate for Ukraine EU application. But did Nuland bother to ask the people's of the EU whether they actually wanted Ukraine to become a member. What about Swiss voters, do you think they'd be up for digging into their pockets for the massive subsidies necessary to integrate the Ukraine into the Common Agriculture Policy.

We in Britain have just left the EU, we didn't want to subsidise the Common Agriculture Policy with its existing members let alone Ukraine. We didn't want to subsidise the poorer regions of the existing members of the EU, imagine the money that a corrupt country like Ukraine would consume in the EU. And its not just the Swiss, the Norwegians, the Icelanders and the British who have given two fingers to European solidarity. Its not Russian troops that are blockading Ukraine's western borders its Polish,, Hungarian, Slovakian and Romanian truck drivers and farmers.

If we're serious about wanting to integrate the Ukraine into the EU, we should be thanking Putin for annexing territory.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15304275
Rich wrote:What you seem so unwilling to accept is that "The West" as you call its response has been an absolute joke since the start of the SMO.


An "absolute joke"? Nope. Not decisive enough, definitely.

Rich wrote:In fact the West's policies have been a total joke since 2013.


To the contrary. I think the invasion happened because since 2013, the West was successful in Ukraine and Russia wasn't. Ukraine managed to detangle itself economically from Russia and had several peaceful transfers of power. All while fighting a war in the East.

With the 2022 invasion in mind, the policies were a joke. But nobody expected it.
#15304311
Skynet wrote:@Istanbuller What do you think about an Alliance switch, with Russia and Iran instead of the West.

Sorry for replying late.

Aligning with someone is not that easy. There must be some links connects two parts to each other. These links can be cultural, strategic, political, economical or even emotional. You need that in the first place. I don't see there is a link between Iran, Russia and Turkey at the moment.

Turkey invited NATO because Soviet Union thratened to invade some parts of Turkey at that time. It was both in Turkey and the US's interest to align in this situation. Later we began to see The West as source of democracy and human rights. It was the role model for Turkey.

Lastly, why are we (Erdoğan supporters, Turkish conservatives and classical liberals) disappointed in NATO and The West in general? As a newly elected leader, Erdoğan was the prominent supporter of NATO and The West. We all thought that the West supports democracy and human rights everywhere no matter where it is. We believed that NATO and The EU is the union of democracy and democracy sıupporters. But it turned out quite opposite of this. Arab Spring fall short because of no support coming to democracy supporters in those countries. Syria is left to ruines. Turkey had a failed coup d'etat. We just lost all hope regarding the West.
By Rich
#15304378
In 2003 we were right to insist on regime change in Iraq, we should have done it back in 1991. There was only one good argument against the 2003 invasion of Iraq that i could see and that was that we should have been invading North Korea. We were too weak and cowardly to take on North Korea in 2003, despite all the post 9/11 macho talk, but then in 2022, we are now going to destroy Russia. :roll: I think not.

This is not a full scale war even between Russia and Ukraine. In many ways Putin seems to live in the same delusional mind set as Zelensky and the western liberals. Both Russia and Ukraine have failed to mobilise. Both countries or nations if you prefer lack the will to fully commit to the war. There's hundreds of kilometers of open border between Ukraine and Russia-Belarus. Look at the length of the active front and then compare that with Russia's front in WW1 against Germany, Austria-Hungary, Romania and the Ottoman empire. Few things speak to the pathetic narcissism of the Liberal than his constant need to refer the conflict as a full scale invasion. A full scale invasion this most certainly is not.

Its the same with NATO on the diplomatic front. The US, Britain and France still sit down with Russia on the UN security council. They sit together on what is the highest, the supreme , most powerful governing body in the world today. Yet at the same we supposed to be in an existential war with Russia. We say that by defeating Russia in Ukraine we will defeat China over Taiwan, yet at the beginning of the conflict we expected China's cooperation in sanctioning Russia.

At the start of the SMO, if we had been half way serious, about an existential conflict with Russia we would have cut off all Russian energy imports dead. But no we want to carry on importing Russian energy, but we thought that Russia shouldn't use the proceeds to support their war effort. As I say the narcissism of the Liberals just beggars belief. Can you imagine it in World War.

Adolph Hitler we demand that you keep supplying us with German coal, but don't you dare think that you are allowed to spend a single pfennig on the German war effort.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15304379
Rich wrote:This is not a full scale war even between Russia and Ukraine. In many ways Putin seems to live in the same delusional mind set as Zelensky and the western liberals. Both Russia and Ukraine have failed to mobilise. Both countries or nations if you prefer lack the will to fully commit to the war. There's hundreds of kilometers of open border between Ukraine and Russia-Belarus. Look at the length of the active front and then compare that with Russia's front in WW1 against Germany, Austria-Hungary, Romania and the Ottoman empire. Few things speak to the pathetic narcissism of the Liberal than his constant need to refer the conflict as a full scale invasion. A full scale invasion this most certainly is not.


Utter nonsense. The amount of material spent in this war is mindboggling. Both sides could mobilize more manpower, but that's not the limitation, at least not unqualified manpower.
#15304383
When is Ukraine occupying Moscow, @litwin? Hasn't it happened yet?
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