Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 798 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Verv
#15304997
A lot has been said already concerning the delays in US aid to the Ukraine, but one of the biggest supporters of the Ukraine, Poland, has actually been highly critical of the grain trade lifeline they are giving to the Ukraine.


Polish farmers dump grain in protest as Ukraine dispute deepens


Poland’s bitter dispute with Ukraine over farm imports has escalated as Polish farmers dumped grain from a freight train as part of nationwide protests and Volodymyr Zelenskiy accused Warsaw of “mockery”.

In a video address on Monday, Ukraine’s president described the blockade by Polish farmers as absurd at a time when Russia was bombing his country. “The situation is not about grain, but rather about politics,” he said, after a visit to the frontline town of Kupiansk.

He added: “Near Kupiansk, not far from the Russian border where enemy artillery is constantly active, the news from the Polish border looks like a mockery. We need joint decisions, rational decisions to get out of the situation.”

Zelenskiy said only 5% of Ukraine’s agricultural exports went through Poland and complained that the slowdown was undermining “solidarity” on a daily basis. The two countries, plus anyone who cared “about the fate of Europe”, needed to resolve the problem, he added.

Farmers in France, Belgium, Portugal, Greece, Spain and Germany have been protesting against constraints placed on them by EU measures to tackle the climate crisis, as well as rising costs and what they say is unfair competition from abroad.

In Poland, the protests have taken on an anti-Ukrainian character. The farmers allege that cheap agricultural goods have undermined their businesses. They want to stop the import of Ukrainian grain and to extend the ban to other goods including fruit, eggs and meat.


The Guardian

I imagine that Litwin knows all about the way in which Polish people hate Russians and have showed incredibel loyalty and solidarity with the Ukrainains. The greatest number of foreigners fighting against Russia right now are actually Poles.

This is bad news - if the war weariness is impacting the Poles who have showed such support for the Ukrainians so unconditionally, the writing is perhaps on the walls.


#15305014
The war in Ukraine is over for all intent and purpose. Though it will take months and much more bloodshed, Putin has won. He has caused the republicans in the USA to turn their back on Ukraine and the coalition that has been supporting it is fracturing. The Dutch are selling out to papa Putin too.

Russia will have Ukraine safely in the new Soviet Union withing the year.
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By Rancid
#15305015
Drlee wrote:The war in Ukraine is over for all intent and purpose. Though it will take months and much more bloodshed, Putin has won. He has caused the republicans in the USA to turn their back on Ukraine and the coalition that has been supporting it is fracturing. The Dutch are selling out to papa Putin too.

Russia will have Ukraine safely in the new Soviet Union withing the year.


Do you think a war with NATO is possibly next?
#15305025
Drlee wrote:The war in Ukraine is over for all intent and purpose. Though it will take months and much more bloodshed, Putin has won. He has caused the republicans in the USA to turn their back on Ukraine and the coalition that has been supporting it is fracturing. The Dutch are selling out to papa Putin too.

Russia will have Ukraine safely in the new Soviet Union withing the year.


The Dutch? Why? They joined the "Drone Coalition" and are working on security guarantees for Ukraine.

As for the Republicans. In the Senate, 22 Republicans voted in favor of the foreign aid deal. The Republicans in the house are held hostage by the MAGA morons and their speaker, who refuses to put the deal to a vote. It's possible that the humanitarian aid gets scrapped and only the weapons remain (about half of the $60bn).
By Rich
#15305034
litwin wrote:cos , our Marxists literally delivered the N. bomb to Beria , achievement ? I dont think so , we had upper hand in nuclear race for decades , and could put in place Moscow Mongol Marxist hordes in place, easily, unfortunately our 5th column (democracy haters, NKVD SPIES , Marxists, ETC. ) was too powerful ....

"Democracy haters" you say. Yes it is true that Communists hate democracy and that includes Anarchists, even though they spurn or pretend to spurn centralised structures of control and dominance themselves. But lets remember that although the western allies, the US, British Commonwealth, France, Belgium and, the Netherlands in 1945 were a lot more democratic than the Soviet Union, paragons of democracy they were not. Only a minority of people in the British, French, Dutch and Belgian Empires got to vote for the government. The US had apartheid authoritarianism in the south and was already starting to line up its collection of Cold War dictatorship friends.

So Liberals I have a question. What do you think would have happened if you had got your wish and on May 8th 1945, the Soviets had said we're going back to "Musocovy"? What do you think would have happened if the Soviets had pulled out of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Crimea, Kazakstan, Siberia, Manchuria, North Korea etc? Do you think there would have been an orgy of peaceful free enterprise? Do you imagine that without the Soviet terror machine to impose order there would have been peace across these vast territories? Do you think that without the Soviet Russifacation and colonisation of East Prussia and the Soviet terror imposed expulsion of the Sudetenland Germans, that German border disputes with its eastern neighbours would have come to an end? Do you think that Ukraine would have peacefully resolved its borders with Hungary, Poland, Romania, Belarus and Crimea?
By late
#15305040
Rich wrote:
So Liberals I have a question. What do you think would have happened if you had got your wish and on May 8th 1945, the Soviets had said we're going back to "Musocovy"? What do you think would have happened if the Soviets had pulled out of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Crimea, Kazakstan, Siberia, Manchuria, North Korea etc? Do you think there would have been an orgy of peaceful free enterprise? Do you imagine that without the Soviet terror machine to impose order there would have been peace across these vast territories? Do you think that without the Soviet Russifacation and colonisation of East Prussia and the Soviet terror imposed expulsion of the Sudetenland Germans, that German border disputes with its eastern neighbours would have come to an end? Do you think that Ukraine would have peacefully resolved its borders with Hungary, Poland, Romania, Belarus and Crimea?



Historians call things like that "science fiction".
User avatar
By litwin
#15305043
Rich wrote:"Democracy haters" you say. Yes it is true that Communists hate democracy and that includes Anarchists, even though they spurn or pretend to spurn centralised structures of control and dominance themselves. But lets remember that although the western allies, the US, British Commonwealth, France, Belgium and, the Netherlands in 1945 were a lot more democratic than the Soviet Union, paragons of democracy they were not. Only a minority of people in the British, French, Dutch and Belgian Empires got to vote for the government. The US had apartheid authoritarianism in the south and was already starting to line up its collection of Cold War dictatorship friends.

So Liberals I have a question. What do you think would have happened if you had got your wish and on May 8th 1945, the Soviets had said we're going back to "Musocovy"? What do you think would have happened if the Soviets had pulled out of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Crimea, Kazakstan, Siberia, Manchuria, North Korea etc? Do you think there would have been an orgy of peaceful free enterprise? Do you imagine that without the Soviet terror machine to impose order there would have been peace across these vast territories? Do you think that without the Soviet Russifacation and colonisation of East Prussia and the Soviet terror imposed expulsion of the Sudetenland Germans, that German border disputes with its eastern neighbours would have come to an end? Do you think that Ukraine would have peacefully resolved its borders with Hungary, Poland, Romania, Belarus and Crimea?



Nobody knows , some (many) of us´d just fine, Estonia before Moscow occupation had HIGHER THAN FINLAND quality of life ....
one for sure we´d not cannibalize our children , like we did under Moscow - Marxist occupation , do you agree ?


The Soviet famine of 1946–1947 was a major famine in the Soviet Union that lasted from mid-1946 to the winter of 1947 to 1948.

The estimates of victim numbers vary, ranging from several hundred thousand to 2 million. [1]: xv  Recent estimates from historian Cormac Ó Gráda, show that 900,000 perished during the famine.[2] Regions that were especially affected included the Ukrainian SSR with 300,000 dead,[2] and the Moldavian SSR with 100,000 dead.[2][3] Other parts of the Soviet Union such as the Muscovite SFSR and the Belarusian SSR were also affected with 500,000 deaths.[2][4] Elsewhere, malnutrition was widespread but famine was averted.[2] The famine is notable for very high levels of child mortality.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_fa ... %80%931947
By Rich
#15305050
So yesterday we celebrated 10 years of struggle, 10 years of sanctions. 10 years ago yesterday Putin liberated / seized Crimea. President Obama, his vice President Joe Biden and David Cameron said this will not stand. These great wise Liberal leaders told Ukraine not to accept the loss of Crimea. We'll impose sanctions they said. They always work. They encouraged Ukraine to cut off the water supply and blockade Crimea. That will force Putin to hand it back.

So at this 10 year mark, its a good point to assess how the liberal plan is working out. Um yes its not good is it. By provoking Putin rather than regaining Crimea they lost the land bridge. And what successes have they had. They retook Kherson, but that was over a year ago and in the greatest counter offensive they took Robotyne, the jewel in the crown of the "liberated" territories. Over the last 15 months the Russians have not only built formidable defences to defend the land bridge, they have also been building railways. The whole liberal strategy is based on the fragility of the Russian supply route. The new railways are totally undermining that.

It was perhaps symbolic that on the tenth anniversary the Russians captured part of Krinky and took Pobjeda. The latter is tiny village of no significance before the war. However it is a small but significant step for the Russians to eventually take Vuhledhar and widen the land bridge. Its a very small nail, but it is still another nail in the coffin of the Liberals hopes of turning Sevastopol into an American naval base.
#15305060
Drlee wrote:The war in Ukraine is over for all intent and purpose. Though it will take months and much more bloodshed, Putin has won. He has caused the republicans in the USA to turn their back on Ukraine and the coalition that has been supporting it is fracturing. The Dutch are selling out to papa Putin too.

Russia will have Ukraine safely in the new Soviet Union withing the year.


Note sure where you are taking your news from:

1) War in Ukraine is not going to end any time soon.
2) US support is important but not critical. Europe will eventually outproduce Russia but ramp up will take longer so more Ukranians will die.
3) Republicans have taken foreign policy hostage for the election, Trump probably will not get elected but even if he does then there will be 95% chance that the foreign policy will remain the same. It is not like the Republicans are against Ukraine, they just wanna win the election and giving Biden military wins is something they don't wanna do. Plus it gives an extra excuse to not do anything with the border and just ignore all propositions and not vote for them even if Democrats basically gave what Republicans wanted. Which is weird but okay, I guess election hur durr.
4) Europe is unified on the topic excluding Orban, but he got the point so unless he wants to loose his vote and may be kicked out, he will fall in line.

Even if we take a scenario when no support at all from Europe or US then Ukraine will still fight. This is Vietnam lesson 101, Ukraine ain't fighting for somebodies interest but for their independence. We were here already couple of times but people tend to not learn this lesson. Wars of independence can't be easily won. US couldn't beat Vietnam with all its might and part of the country collaborating. Modern Russia is nowhere close to what USA was durring Vietnam war nor do they have anybody really collaborating in numbers.
#15305076
On the upside by reading Rawls you get an update what western propaganda is currently saying, without having to read this insufferable bullshit yourself.



> 1) War in Ukraine is not going to end any time soon.

Thats indeed current western propaganda. They want the war to last until after the US elections.

I dont think so at all. Honestly I'm surprised the russians still even now think they need to grind the ukrainians even more. The ukrainian troups that got defeated at Avdeyevka had complained months before already they never get relieved of duty. Ukraine simply has no men to spare and now the military leadership has changed, they even throw in the Asov Batallion and other elite groups that the previous leader, Zalushny, had held in the backhand. Not that it made much of a difference.



> 2) US support is important but not critical.

Sure. After all, they only provided like 90% of support. Peanuts, obviously.

Namely the EU has just made a big leap and gave Ukraine 50 billion euros, over four years. Ukraine needs like 60 billion in a single year. Without the USA, even just funding the collapsing ukrainian economy wont work.

The only hope for funding for Ukraine is the plan to steal 300 billion of russian assets, but large majority owned by private people, which would be theft and would massively damage the name of the Euro currency. Something the USA doesnt give two shits about, so they want this to proceed. We'll see.

Mind, this is just funding, to keep the ukrainian economy running. Not actually military goods. Which Ukraine also needs.



> Europe will eventually outproduce Russia

Right now Europe produces like 10% of what the USA produces. We dont know how much exactly Russia produces, but they already produced more than the USA before the war and have massively ramped up production since.

The USA has increased production somewhat, but not by much. And even what little they increased happened because part of their production is state owned.

Thats how the USA ran WW2 too, by the way. With state owned production. Not with private production, which after all wants to make a profit ... and not much else.


But ... if the EU:

- Invest into education big time now, because right now especially here in Germany education is absolute shit, and we dont have enough engineers.

- Also we have to somehow make sure we get the raw materials. Russia has them in their country. Nevermind they are friends with almost everyone, except the west.

- Oh and we need cheap energy. Which, by geography, we would have to get ... from Russia. Damn.

- And we have to make our military-industrial complex state owned instead of keeping it private owned, sure.

- Also, invest heavily into military research, too. Very essential, too, since Russia clearly is ahead to the west in that regard right now, too.

So in merely about 20 years or so, yes, we could totally outproduce Russia. After all the EU is 300 million people, and Russia is only like 150 million.

I mean all Russia would have to do is ask China for help, and then we're back to being checkmated. China has something like 1.5 billion people. Five times as many as us. And just like Russia, they train their people properly. They can have massive military production in a heartbeat, especially since they have Russia as friends.


But, in the near future - not so much.

The UK is completely reduced to giving moral support at this point. Which they give very happily. They have a burning hate for Russia. Ironically because Russia killed the Tsar. But Russia only killed the Tsar because other countries, including the UK, had invaded Russia, and there was the risk that the Tsar would be freed. So the UK hates Russia ... for something Russia did because of illegal actions of the UK. LOL ! Anyway, they'd love to help, but they are all out.

Germany cant afford to, for example, produce new Leopards. Thats very energy intensive and energy is very expensive in Germany right now. Because the USA blew up Nordstream and we no longer have access to cheap russian pipeline gas.

All the EU has really archieved in this regard is exploding the prices for ammunition.

We dont lack funding. We lack the ability. You cant eat money ... you cant use it as ammunition in war, either. You need the actual good, and thats simply not available.


> Europe is unified

ROTFL !!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now thats REALLY funny. Thanks for the good laugh. :D

Europe is in constant infighting since decades and it only gets worse and worse. Merkel was the worst. She basically ignored all ideas from France, and at one point seriously considered throwing Greece out of the EU. All over the EU rightwing movements are getting stronger.

The whole immigration issue is exemplary. Some countries like Poland outright refuse to accept any immigration at all, while Italy, Germany etc have to absorb major parts of it.

By the way Urban seems very popular and successful. Among other things, he still has cheap russian gas. Consequence of making your politics based on reality instead of ideological ideas never to be challenged by evidence.

The UK already left. If the EU breaks down in the next years, I wouldnt be too surprised.

There is of course always the hope that one day theres a revolution of some sort and the EU turns into a union of people, instead of a union of the rich against the people, as it is now.
#15305078
Rugoz wrote:@Rich How do you not get tired of writing paragraphs of trash every day?

:lol: Translation: I've got no way to refute what you've written so as usual I'm going to resort to childish insults and hope you'll go away so as my bullshit is left unchallenged.

As to the current state of the battle, both sides are stupid to gamble on total victory. Currently the Russians are advancing very slowly. The Ukrainians are still ahead in terms of territory from the start of the greatest counter offensive, but the only settlements they captured are rubble where as Adviika wasn't rubble back then. And the Ukrainians are in danger of reaching net zero from the greatest counter offensive.

The Russians are up since the fall of Kherson. The mistake both sides cheer leaders make is always assuming their advances will just continue or in the Ukrainian case, assuming their advances of 2022 will inevitably be repeated. This is the irrational thinking that gamblers always have.
#15305083
America threatens Chinese banks. Now Chinese banks refuse accepting money from Russia. Things get worse each day for Russia.

Soon all exports and imports regarding Russia will be banned. They will only allow medical equipment and food to be exported to Russia.

Iran has been in the same position for decades but somehow they survive. Let's see what Russia will do.
User avatar
By litwin
#15305102
Drlee wrote:The war in Ukraine is over for all intent and purpose. Though it will take months and much more bloodshed, Putin has won. He has caused the republicans in the USA to turn their back on Ukraine and the coalition that has been supporting it is fracturing. The Dutch are selling out to papa Putin too.

Russia will have Ukraine safely in the new Soviet Union withing the year.

impossible, Moscow empire has lost this war 2 years ago, its question of time when Moscow ulus will collapsed, 10 years max

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rYgIIhMoNAs
#15305114
Negotiator wrote:On the upside by reading Rawls you get an update what western propaganda is currently saying, without having to read this insufferable bullshit yourself.



> 1) War in Ukraine is not going to end any time soon.

Thats indeed current western propaganda. They want the war to last until after the US elections.

I dont think so at all. Honestly I'm surprised the russians still even now think they need to grind the ukrainians even more. The ukrainian troups that got defeated at Avdeyevka had complained months before already they never get relieved of duty. Ukraine simply has no men to spare and now the military leadership has changed, they even throw in the Asov Batallion and other elite groups that the previous leader, Zalushny, had held in the backhand. Not that it made much of a difference.



> 2) US support is important but not critical.

Sure. After all, they only provided like 90% of support. Peanuts, obviously.

Namely the EU has just made a big leap and gave Ukraine 50 billion euros, over four years. Ukraine needs like 60 billion in a single year. Without the USA, even just funding the collapsing ukrainian economy wont work.

The only hope for funding for Ukraine is the plan to steal 300 billion of russian assets, but large majority owned by private people, which would be theft and would massively damage the name of the Euro currency. Something the USA doesnt give two shits about, so they want this to proceed. We'll see.

Mind, this is just funding, to keep the ukrainian economy running. Not actually military goods. Which Ukraine also needs.



> Europe will eventually outproduce Russia

Right now Europe produces like 10% of what the USA produces. We dont know how much exactly Russia produces, but they already produced more than the USA before the war and have massively ramped up production since.

The USA has increased production somewhat, but not by much. And even what little they increased happened because part of their production is state owned.

Thats how the USA ran WW2 too, by the way. With state owned production. Not with private production, which after all wants to make a profit ... and not much else.


But ... if the EU:

- Invest into education big time now, because right now especially here in Germany education is absolute shit, and we dont have enough engineers.

- Also we have to somehow make sure we get the raw materials. Russia has them in their country. Nevermind they are friends with almost everyone, except the west.

- Oh and we need cheap energy. Which, by geography, we would have to get ... from Russia. Damn.

- And we have to make our military-industrial complex state owned instead of keeping it private owned, sure.

- Also, invest heavily into military research, too. Very essential, too, since Russia clearly is ahead to the west in that regard right now, too.

So in merely about 20 years or so, yes, we could totally outproduce Russia. After all the EU is 300 million people, and Russia is only like 150 million.

I mean all Russia would have to do is ask China for help, and then we're back to being checkmated. China has something like 1.5 billion people. Five times as many as us. And just like Russia, they train their people properly. They can have massive military production in a heartbeat, especially since they have Russia as friends.


But, in the near future - not so much.

The UK is completely reduced to giving moral support at this point. Which they give very happily. They have a burning hate for Russia. Ironically because Russia killed the Tsar. But Russia only killed the Tsar because other countries, including the UK, had invaded Russia, and there was the risk that the Tsar would be freed. So the UK hates Russia ... for something Russia did because of illegal actions of the UK. LOL ! Anyway, they'd love to help, but they are all out.

Germany cant afford to, for example, produce new Leopards. Thats very energy intensive and energy is very expensive in Germany right now. Because the USA blew up Nordstream and we no longer have access to cheap russian pipeline gas.

All the EU has really archieved in this regard is exploding the prices for ammunition.

We dont lack funding. We lack the ability. You cant eat money ... you cant use it as ammunition in war, either. You need the actual good, and thats simply not available.


> Europe is unified

ROTFL !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now thats REALLY funny. Thanks for the good laugh. :D

Europe is in constant infighting since decades and it only gets worse and worse. Merkel was the worst. She basically ignored all ideas from France, and at one point seriously considered throwing Greece out of the EU. All over the EU rightwing movements are getting stronger.

The whole immigration issue is exemplary. Some countries like Poland outright refuse to accept any immigration at all, while Italy, Germany etc have to absorb major parts of it.

By the way Urban seems very popular and successful. Among other things, he still has cheap russian gas. Consequence of making your politics based on reality instead of ideological ideas never to be challenged by evidence.

The UK already left. If the EU breaks down in the next years, I wouldnt be too surprised.

There is of course always the hope that one day theres a revolution of some sort and the EU turns into a union of people, instead of a union of the rich against the people, as it is now.



Yeah man, you took Avdeevka and US hasn't been sending anything relative for the last 5-6 months due to Republicans already and you managed to to take 0.001% of Ukraine. So for the whole last year Russia took 0.008% of Ukraine and Ukraine took back 0.004.

Also your numbers are wrong long ago. Europe total is already 70-75% while US is at around 20%. Military wise Europe is around 50% if you count just military stuff but some of it is classified so its probably larger because several countries in Europe do not announce.

So Uh 0.005% gain for around 100+ thousand dead Russian soldiers. Congarts yo. Europe can keep this up indefinetely though and Ukraines resolves moved 2% in to irrelevant how long they need to fight to win in the war basically from 71% in 2022 to 73% in 2024. The long story short here, It doesn't matter if we need 1-2 more years to severely outproduce, heck even 5 or 10 seems to be okay by the looks of it.
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