Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 801 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15305499
late wrote:Most of Europe is afraid Trump will win.

They have good reason to be concerned.

If you mean that most of Europe's leech-like elite worry that Trump will win... you may have a point. Trump isn't a savior in any way, but his clumsiness and obvious mafia-connections ensure that the entire West will lose its fake, media-generated shine if he is elected.

Hundreds of pages of bullshit, and I am still rooting for Russia to get rid of that illegitimate vassal in Ukraine, and to perhaps defend the Russian speakers in Ukraine from the rot that Oligarchs created in 2014 by overthrowing the elected government.

This has blown up in the West's face, and it's a perfect example of how hubris leads to incredible levels of stupidity.

"Now that our populations are scared and dumbed down by the Covid psy ops, we can convince them to go to war with Russia so that we (and our oligarch sponsors) can tap into all those resources... and prevent the world from abandoning the USA's magic money tree dollars."
#15305506
Welcome to year 3 of a 3 day military operation.

If you are happy that Russia hasn't collapsed yet either militarily or economically or societally/politically then just look at the first sentence and then wait until it happens eventually :lol:
#15305510
Whoever gets elected as US president wont get into power before january 2025.
#15305513
QatzelOk wrote:
This has blown up in the West's face, and it's a perfect example of how hubris leads to incredible levels of stupidity.



Thanks for the chuckle.

Did you know when they held the vote, the people of Crimea voted to be part of Ukraine, not Russia? That was before Putin slammed a Russian boot on their neck, of course.
#15305541
late wrote:Most of Europe is afraid Trump will win.


Wtf ?

Who is this "most of europe" ?

I certainly arent afraid at all, and fundamentally dont understand why I should be.

The dude was US president before, and he wasnt worse, and in some ways he was even better, than other US presidents.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15305576
Trump cares only about getting elected. For that reason, until November, he wants the border to remain open, Ukraine to be on the defensive and the US economy to tank.

If he wins, what he will do in Ukraine is anyone's guess.

I wouldn't be surprised if he told Putin to fuck off or get bombed to smithereens.
By Rich
#15305586
Many Republican Congress members had Neo Con foreign policy leanings even if on other issues they were more in tune with Trump. Many of them were more hawkishly anti Russian than Joe Biden. As I've mentioned before I floated the idea of linking US border control to Ukrainian funds off my own bat, not from any Republican or Trumpian source. I was as surprised as anyone when a year fifteen months later Lindsay Graham of all people had gone all in on this linkage.

However I think a lot of Republicans have realised two things. Joe Biden is not using the powers he already has to control the border, in fact he is using his powers and arguably going well beyond his constitutional powers to sabotage the States attempts to step and do his job of controlling the border. As Charles Cooke of National Review, no fan of Trump, has pointed out, the idea of giving more powers to such a corrupt, dishonest man is utterly ridiculous. I think that a second realisation is also dawning on Republicans, that Joe Biden will almost certainly throw the Ukrainians under the bus if he wins the November election. Even if you believed in maximalist victory against the Russians many are realising that its a hopeless pursuit under Biden and Zelensky's disastrous leadership.

Zelensky's again whining about weapons and ammo shortages. Well they would be less short if the Ukrainians had left behind less weapons and ammunition in Avdiivka. If Zelensky hadn't sabotaged the withdrawal from Avdiivka in good time. The Ukrainian army is complaining that they're short of men. but they still outnumber the Russian 3 to 2. Most of the nine hundred thousand men and women of the Ukrainian army are not taking part in the fighting. They have a corrupt army, with a corrupt conscription bureaucracy in a corrupt country. The idea that the majority of Ukrainians want to fight to defend their country and to expel the Russians from Kruschevian Ukraine is a liberal fantasy. For the time being the majority of Ukrainians are still committed to someone else fighting to win absolute victory.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15305605
Rich wrote:Many Republican Congress members had Neo Con foreign policy leanings even if on other issues they were more in tune with Trump. Many of them were more hawkishly anti Russian than Joe Biden. As I've mentioned before I floated the idea of linking US border control to Ukrainian funds off my own bat, not from any Republican or Trumpian source. I was as surprised as anyone when a year fifteen months later Lindsay Graham of all people had gone all in on this linkage.

However I think a lot of Republicans have realised two things. Joe Biden is not using the powers he already has to control the border, in fact he is using his powers and arguably going well beyond his constitutional powers to sabotage the States attempts to step and do his job of controlling the border. As Charles Cooke of National Review, no fan of Trump, has pointed out, the idea of giving more powers to such a corrupt, dishonest man is utterly ridiculous. I think that a second realisation is also dawning on Republicans, that Joe Biden will almost certainly throw the Ukrainians under the bus if he wins the November election. Even if you believed in maximalist victory against the Russians many are realising that its a hopeless pursuit under Biden and Zelensky's disastrous leadership.

Zelensky's again whining about weapons and ammo shortages. Well they would be less short if the Ukrainians had left behind less weapons and ammunition in Avdiivka. If Zelensky hadn't sabotaged the withdrawal from Avdiivka in good time. The Ukrainian army is complaining that they're short of men. but they still outnumber the Russian 3 to 2. Most of the nine hundred thousand men and women of the Ukrainian army are not taking part in the fighting. They have a corrupt army, with a corrupt conscription bureaucracy in a corrupt country. The idea that the majority of Ukrainians want to fight to defend their country and to expel the Russians from Kruschevian Ukraine is a liberal fantasy. For the time being the majority of Ukrainians are still committed to someone else fighting to win absolute victory.


What a bunch of crap.

There's something called the rule of law. The people at the border are asylum seekers. There's a right to apply for asylum. Trump tried to close the border and the courts stopped him. Legislation is needed.

Biden could already throw Ukraine under the bus now, why wait for the election? And why would he even have helped so far? Makes zero sense.

Zelensky sabotaging the withdrawal is pure speculation.

Outnumbering Russians 3 to 2? Provide a source for that.

Most soldiers are not fighting because frontline troops are only a part of what is needed in a military. It's the same on the Russian side.

Someone else fighting? Ukrainians are fighting, nobody else if fighting for them.
By Rich
#15305607
Rugoz wrote:Zelensky sabotaging the withdrawal is pure speculation.

Zelensky The new voice of Ukraine wrote:“Now, their firepower usage is about 6.6 times, roughly seven times, as strong as ours. We need to reach the point where we had similar usage, [as in our] counteroffensive actions, where it was closer to 1.5 times, 3 times [the usage]. Then we could push the Russians back. Without such numbers, we can either hold our ground or lose 100 meters, 50 meters. Unfortunately, this is important to us, but strategically, it's more important not to lose people."

50 to a hundred metres? :roll: In other words he's not really prepared to countenance even a tactical withdrawal of any substance. Even if they wanted to hang on to the Avdiika citadel as well as the Coke plant, a withdrawal of a couple of Kilometers was required. Its pretty clear from the very public nature of the disagreements between Zelensky and Zaluzhnyi that Zelensky hasn't wanted to give up any ground. The reason it took so long for Zelensky to replace Zaluzhnyi, is that he couldn't find anyone to replace him. Even Syrskyi initially said no. They all realised what a poisoned chalice the command was with Zelensky making ever more unhinged demands.

Outnumbering Russians 3 to 2? Provide a source for that.

I'm saying 900000 Ukrainians to 600000 Russians. If you want to counter-pose your own numbers, with or without sources feel free. The six hundred thousand figures for the Russians is only possible precisely because they haven't lost the incredible numbers claimed by the Ukrainians and their western liberal cheer leaders. What the Ukrainians need to explain is why the nine hundred thousand figure is so low. Why is the Ukrainian army so small, 10 years after they lost Crimea and 2 years after the start of the SMO, when they've got huge financing and supplies from outside.
#15305608
late wrote:Thanks for the chuckle.

Did you know when they held the vote, the people of Crimea voted to be part of Ukraine, not Russia? That was before Putin slammed a Russian boot on their neck, of course.


You can vote for whatever you want Late, the issue is if the Empire who has more guns and money than you will allow you to have your democracy.

If they are like the USA government with that hypocritical bullshit mentality then they will only allow what the oligarchs dictate.

Study Empires. They all have very very consistent behavior patterns all throughout human history.

The issue is thinking that the Russians or the Chinese or anyone else with guns, nukes and men and women in uniform have never studied the US government playbook or military tactics. That is a mistake.

Again, honesty is going to be work. Dishonesty and playing the morally superior country is for fools Late. It is. No one is fooled in human power plays.

They all present a public face and then in private they have another face. Ukraine is going to have to work hard to get its ability to retain its standing. They have to live with the Russians next door to them forever. That is the reality of where they are in geographical positioning in the world.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15305612
Rich wrote:50 to a hundred metres? :roll: In other words he's not really prepared to countenance even a tactical withdrawal of any substance. Even if they wanted to hang on to the Avdiika citadel as well as the Coke plant, a withdrawal of a couple of Kilometers was required. Its pretty clear from the very public nature of the disagreements between Zelensky and Zaluzhnyi that Zelensky hasn't wanted to give up any ground. The reason it took so long for Zelensky to replace Zaluzhnyi, is that he couldn't find anyone to replace him. Even Syrskyi initially said no. They all realised what a poisoned chalice the command was with Zelensky making ever more unhinged demands.


How is it possible to come to such an absurd interpretation of these "50-100m" in Zelensky's statement? :eh:

The withdrawal from Avdiika was prepared 1-2 weeks before it happened. Are you suggesting Syrskyi acted against Zelensky?

Rich wrote:I'm saying 900000 Ukrainians to 600000 Russians. If you want to counter-pose your own numbers, with or without sources feel free. The six hundred thousand figures for the Russians is only possible precisely because they haven't lost the incredible numbers claimed by the Ukrainians and their western liberal cheer leaders. What the Ukrainians need to explain is why the nine hundred thousand figure is so low. Why is the Ukrainian army so small, 10 years after they lost Crimea and 2 years after the start of the SMO, when they've got huge financing and supplies from outside.


Easily a million Russian troops involved in the war, one way or another. You made the claim, provide a source.

The Ukrainian army is not small, it's 70% of the size of the active US personnel. You're confused as fuck. :eh:
#15305613
Tainari88 wrote:You can vote for whatever you want Late, the issue is if the Empire who has more guns and money than you will allow you to have your democracy.

If they are like the USA government with that hypocritical bullshit mentality then they will only allow what the oligarchs dictate.

Study Empires. They all have very very consistent behavior patterns all throughout human history.

The issue is thinking that the Russians or the Chinese or anyone else with guns, nukes and men and women in uniform have never studied the US government playbook or military tactics. That is a mistake.

Again, honesty is going to be work. Dishonesty and playing the morally superior country is for fools Late. It is. No one is fooled in human power plays.

They all present a public face and then in private they have another face. Ukraine is going to have to work hard to get its ability to retain its standing. They have to live with the Russians next door to them forever. That is the reality of where they are in geographical positioning in the world.


They are going to have to live with the fact of being neighbors with the Russians, that's a fact. Question is, are the Russians ready to live with the Ukrainians as neighbors now and in the future? Because Russian history has an overwhelming predisposition of trying to eradicate the Ukrainians cultural, spiritual and intellectual identity. This was the history of the Empire, the Soviets and now the Federation.

You would never accept this behavior from the Yankees over Puerto Ricans, as I'm sure they have done for centuries as well. The world is grey with no moral absolutes. The US government seized an opportunity much like the Soviets seized an opportunity when they encouraged Black American revolutionaries to sow discord in American society. That doesn't make the Ukrainians of today or Malcolm X being on the wrong side of history.
#15305617
MadMonk wrote:They are going to have to live with the fact of being neighbors with the Russians, that's a fact. Question is, are the Russians ready to live with the Ukrainians as neighbors now and in the future? Because Russian history has an overwhelming predisposition of trying to eradicate the Ukrainians cultural, spiritual and intellectual identity. This was the history of the Empire, the Soviets and now the Federation.

You would never accept this behavior from the Yankees over Puerto Ricans, as I'm sure they have done for centuries as well. The world is grey with no moral absolutes. The US government seized an opportunity much like the Soviets seized an opportunity when they encouraged Black American revolutionaries to sow discord in American society. That doesn't make the Ukrainians of today or Malcolm X being on the wrong side of history.


The solution in my opinion MadMonk is about being common sense about a lot of things. If you have ideas about the world that emphasizes conquest and imposition over security and working on very pressing local issues then you will be sowing discord in your environment.

You need always to prioritize human rights. For your native population first. For newcomers in need. The problem really is that many nations do not have the needed structures and resources to address the needs of their populations. Some of it is about environmental pollutions and degradations.

I live in Mexico. I love this city a lot. But, like most cities in Mexico the water here is contaminated. You can't just turn on a faucet and drink the potable water. It is too high in bacteria and in silt and impurities. It would hurt your kidneys over time. So you must buy water from ironically Coca-Cola or some other private company that sells the 30 gallon jugs for about $1.75 US dollars. You have to live with the possibility of an emergency in a hot and humid climate of being cut off from drinkable water. Why? The corporations get more power over a local resource, and they and the government do not INVEST in the necessary actions to make clean water for all a priority.

I can go on and on.

The other problem is jobs. Not enough high paying jobs. For the locals. Me? I am living the high life compared to them. My income is similar to a middle class income or lower middle class income in Denver. But I am in Mérida where the cost of living is way lower. I sold my duplex in Denver in 2019 and bought some property here.

I do not owe anything on it. Except the bank trust and the yearly property taxes.

So, I am not a typical working class Mexican Yucatecan. They find the prices too high and the salaries too low. They make about $1.75 cents an hour. If they are lucky they make about $3 dollars US an hour. It is not enough to cover expenses. Most people make end's meet here because they are long term local families who live in family owned homes for generations and no longer have mortgages or rents to pay. Instead they put up some microbusiness and make about enough for food, transportation, clothes, etc. and maybe save a little bit.

The wealthy are extremely wealthy and the poor are very poor. The middle classes are not enough to offset the poverty problems. So the poor are the ones pushing out to other areas. But Mexico has stabilized recently and more young people the costs and the benefits of immigrating to the USA and it is not all that attractive. So they stay put.

The ones running for the border in the USA are Venezuelans living with precariousness and chaos and lack of joba and services and affordable rents, food, etc. Inflation and all the ills of an unstable economy. The sanctions imposed by the USA has triggered that as well in Venezuela. Cuba also. Honduras which is capitalist based is also in chaos for US policies. And bad leadership too.

If you want to have people stay in their own nations and not immigrate and to stabilize nations? You have to have a non interference policy for neighboring nations. Not imperialism. Imperialism whether it is from Russia, the USA or any other nation is going to create problems over the long haul.

But? You have national interests. Countries that want that land because it is a port for their ships and a place for their military to defend the region that they want defending in a military geopolitical worldview. Like Puerto Rico is of interest to the US and Ukraine is to Russia.

We need to be satellite states for the fights for power and dominance between Russia and or PRC vs. EU and the USA. The USA wants to be the only superpower left standing in that fight. They see the PRC and Russia maybe wanting to get into the European strongholds and they want to make sure that both EU and Russia and PRC will not get that top spot that belongs to the USA only.

So why not blow up Nordstream and supply arms to Ukraine and bog it all down and drain that money and time and instability for years and years?

It might slow down that entire economy enough so that the US retains its positioning in the world? Russia is ambitious and Putin is a nationalist that wants power and to secure Russian interests. No matter what.

if you want to stabilize and make a better world you need to redo the entire premise of international political and economic relationships. It should not be about profit only and invasions and wars and threats and sanctions. Not in a contaminated world with decreasing fish, decreasing quality of food being grown, droughts, and shortages and supply chain shit that breaks down and is inefficient.

Got to rethink the entire system. Putting guns to nations' heads and forcing them to comply because the opposite political government or competitor might get more territory over you? Is for a bad and ugly outcome.

Raw power and hatreds caused by wars and occupations and seeing other nations as pawns in a game of shit? It inhumane and not worth it for the lives that are taken.

These power drunk assholes need to make peace ASAP. And concentrate on some heavy lifting in politics which is having high paying jobs, accessible and affordable and safe housing, clean water for their people, clean streets, recycling, stopping waste, creating coaltions of cooperation between nations so that everyone can STAY PUT in their native lands and not have to leave because some criminal gangs are running their streets, corrupt politicians are not getting anything of real value done, contaminated environments are getting people ill, and high prices and low wages are forcing people into caravans of desperation.

They need to educate people and stop spreading disinformation campaigns where the people living in poor nations are thinking erroneously that the USA or the EU and so on are a PARADISE, and their own nations are hopeless hellholes that have to be given up on forever.

All nations have a place in time, history and with effort and correct politics, economies and actions can improve drastically.

For me? I have studied all kinds of human societies and world histories for a long time. Empires and wars go hand and hand. It is about dominating and controlling without giving human rights or equal rights to anyone but the elite manipulating the need for these wars.

In order to stop it you have to do something very difficult. Confront the ones with bad policies and get them to never have any real power. Confront the ones driven incessantly by greed and profits only and who never prioritize human needs over anonymous irresponsibility by investing in corporations and then wiping their hands clean of any wrongdoing because they have the right to sue governments and upend governments who are not for sale and who refuse to betray their democracies in service for their corporate GREED.

Got to clean house. It is do or die time now. There are periods of human history that are pivotal and change the value systems of a society irrevocably. They leave the past values behind because they are dysfunctional.

Russia needs to give up on its old ambitions of control. But they want their Crimea port. They see NATO as an existential threat. They think they are fighting for their national interests. Ukraine wants to be independent. They have a lot of internal problems but they are really very poor Madmonk. I was surprised when I did a deep dive into Ukraine. They live and have lived with a lot of stark poverty. They work hard and are people of a lot of resiliency. But they are not living the good life either.

I think what needs to happen on a world stage is to have nations refuse to participate in this tug of war between the PRC vs USA and so on. Make another option. The option of nations refusing to be part of an imperialism gone wild partitioning of the world like a cake or a pie. This slice for your USA. This slice for me Russia. This slice for EU, and this slice for China. This slice....that is BULLSHIT.

Respect the sovereign rights of all people and all borders as they stand now. And work on serious economic decline, environmental decline and lack of basic needs all over the world destabilizing the entire planet.

There are enough fucking problems in all of our nations to keep the leadership busy solving water contamination, education, infrastructure, and so on human rights issues forever.

No need to be catering to an overblown ego and overweening and stupidly greedy elite who refuse to share with the little people....they always throughout human history cause internal collapse. In the end the ones who survive it all and continue on are the lower classes. The elites wind up having to die or be erased from power because all their ill gotten gains bites them in the ass either with a Marie Antoinette situation during the French Revolution or Russian Revolution or American Revolution, or Mexican Revolution and every revolution that happens when people are hungry, tired and have had it with the elite not dealing or solving PROBLEMS in their own society!
#15305627
Sweden is finally going to join NATO after Hungarians get a new president but Swedes are starting talks to send Grippen to Ukraine as soon as possible :D

Hopefully, they will send them armed with Meteor missiles.
#15305634
Well the EU has backed off for the moment from stealing the russian assets.



late wrote:Did you know when they held the vote, the people of Crimea voted to be part of Ukraine, not Russia? That was before Putin slammed a Russian boot on their neck, of course.


After the Nuland coup not just the people in Crimea, but also the people of Donbas asked to join Russia back then. Putin accepted Crimea, because its 99% russian with hardly even any minorities present, but denied Donbas, because while its also very much dominated by russians as well, its also a very industrialized area and its loss would greatly hurt Ukraine economically.

And if you accept the barely 50% vote of Crimea in 1991 to leave Russia and join Ukraine you also have to accept the overwhelming 91% vote in 2014 to instead go back to Russia. For that matter the Donbas also had a 80%+ vote to join Russia back then, too, but Russia didnt accept that offer for the aforementioned reason.

Sorry, democracy is not "I accept whatever vote I like and ignore whatever vote I dont like". Either the people are the regent or they aint. And the later isnt democracy.



Rugoz wrote:Trump cares only about getting elected.


I dont even know what you're trying to say. Clearly Trump has political goals; in fact a lot of them, and big ones, too. Like JFK jr he even wants to take on the corrupt secret services of the USA. Thats huge and I dont expect him to succeed with that.

So whats the point you're trying to make ?!?


Rugoz wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if he told Putin to fuck off or get bombed to smithereens.


That sentence actually makes sense in your head ?!?

There are two options:

1. Conventional attack. As we learned in the Ukraine war, the russians have the best air defenses in the world. They also dont exactly have shortage of military airplanes either.

Frankly the russians should sent you a thank you note for doing such a stupidity to attack them with conventional weapons. After all you hand them updates on the current state of US military airplanes on a platter.

Which is exactly why the US may give Ukraine the F16, an airplane from the 1970s, and not a more current model, while the russians have plenty of current airplanes.

2. Nuclear attack. The russians would answer in kind. Byebye mankind.

This is at best a truely poor bluff the russians would immediately call. Frankly I would expect roaring laughter from them as reaction to this "thread".


Rugoz wrote: The people at the border are asylum seekers. There's a right to apply for asylum.


Why yes, asylum is indeed an universal human right.

But most migrants are not asylum seekers. They flee from stuff like war or hunger. Not from unjust political persecution.


Rugoz wrote: Biden could already throw Ukraine under the bus now, why wait for the election?


Because people, especially in the USA, dont vote for politicians who lose wars. As removed as politicians like Biden are from regular people, they know THAT detail.


Rugoz wrote: The withdrawal from Avdiika was prepared 1-2 weeks before it happened.


Since Avdeyevka was a complete collapse of all military discipline, I would call that most highly unlikely.

They only called for the withdrawl once it was obvious the soldiers didnt follow commands anymore and are already fleeing anyway.

Thats also why so much stuff was left behind.


MadMonk wrote: Because Russian history has an overwhelming predisposition of trying to eradicate the Ukrainians cultural, spiritual and intellectual identity.


Oh ?

And thats why, after a thousand years in the same country, in fact the Kiev area is where the whole country started, ukrainian cultural, spiritual and intellectual identity still exists ?!?!?

This is obvious nazi propaganda and absolute nonsense. For good reasons a lot of ukrainians have fled to Russia from the war. And it has turned out they've been wise to do so, since western countries have speculated to sent the ukrainian migrants they hold back to Ukraine for war service. Well, thankfully they didnt and hopefully they wont in future, either.
By late
#15305643
Negotiator wrote:


After the Nuland coup not just the people in Crimea, but also the people of Donbas asked to join Russia back then. Putin accepted Crimea, because its 99% russian with hardly even any minorities present, but denied Donbas, because while its also very much dominated by russians as well, its also a very industrialized area and its loss would greatly hurt Ukraine economically.




Just shows how popular you are when your soldiers help with the vote.
By Rich
#15305692
So interesting that Macron's now talking about sending troops into Ukraine. Now if this was part of the stick to get Russia to accept an immediate ceasefire, and bring to an end the horrific loss of live and injuries to both sides then I would thoroughly commend it. Sadly its not. This seems to be that Macron is signalling to Putin that he wants him to ease off offensives until after the American elections in November. We saw how Biden threw his Afghan allies under the bus at the beginning of his term. At that point the next Presidential election was over 3 years way, the mid terms 15 months and Biden at that point probably wasn't tending to stand for a second term.

After November Biden won't be running for election again, so I suspect the pressure from Harris and her team will be to throw the Ukrainians over board while they can still blame it on Biden.
#15305739
If the democrats want to run on Kamala Harris they might as well hand Trump the presidency on a platter.



late wrote:Just shows how popular you are when your soldiers help with the vote.


Maybe you should actually read the posting you answer to.

How exactly would the "russian soldiers" "help" the people in Donbas voting over 80% for joining Russia even back in 2014 ?

And if you buy into the good old fairy tale that Russia would have invaded Crimea in 2014, this was debunked even back then. Crimea simply had no motive to stay with Ukraine after Ukraine removed russian from the list of official languages of Ukraine. Hardly anyone in Crimea speaks ukrainian in the first place.
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