Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 148 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15305486
Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans speak loudly, and with a lot of animation... the sounds of the tropics, which are coqui frogs, and crickets, birds and animals and people moving around a lot. It is not a quiet place. It never has been.

As I wrote earlier, the sounds of people talking loudly, moving around, and the sounds of animals and nature... are pleasant. Electronic bass sounds clashing with other electronic bass sounds is dystopic and hell-ish. Noise pollution also suppresses thought, and the people of the islands require all their wits to improve their economic situations.

What you are trying to brand as "the charming noisiness of the tropics" is actually "the nefarious effects of electronic devices." And the prevalence of electronic devices (and tropical noise-ophilia) means that Cuban kids can now watch TV on their phones all day, can animate public spaces with videogame noise and electronic music, and basically ruin their ability to think or concentrate on anything for long enough to come to conclusions.

Before electronic devices, one would need to get a group of friends together to play salsa. It would have been impossible to hear seven salsa bands playing on the street at one time in every hood. Today, this is the norm because of electronic devices. It is also possible to raise your children without talking to them very much by ... handing them a device to play with.

This is a disaster, but it was nice to see how this disaster plays out in a noise-positive culture.

Tainari88 wrote:...Puerto Rico and San Juan was a noise hell in the 1980s and in the late 1990s, and now and in the past. Loud dance music booming everywhere is NORMAL shit for us. Reggaeton and Bad Bunny pounding on your ears all the time and every merengue tune and loud stuff is the norm in that part of the world Q...

Then peaceful reflection is impossible there. What a social disaster this is.

Muslims who follow the Muslim Brotherhood would call the resulting hellscape Jahiliyyah. Drunk, dumbed-down people listening to factory noise ("music") all day...

This has absolutely nothing to do with Cuba's communist system. The jahiliyyah of Cuba is a result of the history of the slave islands it is part of. Right? The killers of the local natives, kidnappers of African slaves... are unable to live peaceful, well-organized lives because... their countries were created out of human atrocities... created out of other people's hell.
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#15305503
QatzelOk wrote:As I wrote earlier, the sounds of people talking loudly, moving around, and the sounds of animals and nature... are pleasant. Electronic bass sounds clashing with other electronic bass sounds is dystopic and hell-ish. Noise pollution also suppresses thought, and the people of the islands require all their wits to improve their economic situations.

What you are trying to brand as "the charming noisiness of the tropics" is actually "the nefarious effects of electronic devices." And the prevalence of electronic devices (and tropical noise-ophilia) means that Cuban kids can now watch TV on their phones all day, can animate public spaces with videogame noise and electronic music, and basically ruin their ability to think or concentrate on anything for long enough to come to conclusions.

Before electronic devices, one would need to get a group of friends together to play salsa. It would have been impossible to hear seven salsa bands playing on the street at one time in every hood. Today, this is the norm because of electronic devices. It is also possible to raise your children without talking to them very much by ... handing them a device to play with.

This is a disaster, but it was nice to see how this disaster plays out in a noise-positive culture.


Then peaceful reflection is impossible there. What a social disaster this is.

Muslims who follow the Muslim Brotherhood would call the resulting hellscape Jahiliyyah. Drunk, dumbed-down people listening to factory noise ("music") all day...

This has absolutely nothing to do with Cuba's communist system. The jahiliyyah of Cuba is a result of the history of the slave islands it is part of. Right? The killers of the local natives, kidnappers of African slaves... are unable to live peaceful, well-organized lives because... their countries were created out of human atrocities... created out of other people's hell.
► Show Spoiler


You bring up an interesting perspective I have never fully given deep thought to before Q.

What I can tell you is that no one (no human-populated nation in today's world is truly isolated), whether for good or bad we are all being influenced by each other.

You are right about that noise being anathema to self-reflection. But, you also have to realize that the Cubans want to be a part of modern life. They get bombarded just like the Puerto Ricans do with negative messages about their being inferior to the mainland USA how poor we all are, and how much we can become part of the modern world by adopting the habits of the mainland.

Very few people have the thought process that the people they are trying to be accepted by and imitate are actually lacking in qualities that the Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, etc have.

That is being colonized mentally, culturally, and politically too in our case Q.

Many Puerto Ricans tried to paint in the past the thought that PR by being ruled by the Greatest Nation on the Face of the Earth had the good parts of that. For them, it meant access to technology, living a modern life, and being free to consume and buy twenty different types of detergent to wash their clothes with. By being an American the most wealthy nation on Earth, etc. it will rub off on us. Make us into a better culture. That was the fucked up message most Puerto Ricans got in the past, in the present, and so on. That is the message.

My husband went to a public school in which they would discuss the PR-US relationship. The teacher would say to him, 'Puerto Rico is tiny. So tiny compared to the USA. The amount of times Puerto Rico could fit into the USA is .............. And then, we make less than any state in income. We have a lot of Africans and Indians, and they are people who never had written language and sophistication. Our ways are of people who have nothing civilized to contribute to the world.'

That was the rap for the Puerto Ricans. They even prohibited Spanish in the public school system from
probably 1898 until the 1940s. Here is a timeline of the Spanish language's repression as the common vernacular used on the island.

https://www.timetoast.com/timelines/pue ... age-policy

That is why most Puerto Rican children still address their female teachers as Miss or Missy. Even though that policy has been abolished for a while. The kids were punished in the past for speaking to their teacher often from the mainland sent to the island to teach the kids....as Miss or Missy. Had to say everything in English. The military-appointed governors all used to emit decrees in English even though no one spoke it fluently for a long, long time Q.

Now, my following point. The Spanish crown forced all kinds of unfavorable terms on the Puerto Ricans. Especially those from the lower and peasant classes like the Africans of West African descent that lived in townships like Loiza Aldea, and Guayama, and other areas of the island.

And they also discouraged teaching about Taíno Indian history. They actually would tell the kids in the schoolroom that the Taino culture was extinct and the vast majority of the Puerto Rican people were mostly European only and a bit African. They tested with DNA analysis the majority of the Puerto Rican population samples and the truth painted a very different but more accurate picture of what was the truth. About 60% of all Puerto Ricans in some fairly close to their present gene codes had a matrilineal ancestor that was Taíno Indian and it was mostly Taino mothers and Spanish fathers from specific places like Tenerife Canary Islands, Seville Andalucia, Cádiz, Málaga, and mostly the Southeastern parts of Spain. Because they were the poorest parts of Spain with a lot of Moorish influences and had the most need to make money or inherit land since in Spain they were repudiated a lot.

The picture gets interesting between evidence and what is taught in the public school system as the truth.

My main point is that the Americans came in and reinforced with actual segregationists from the Indian Wars and Manifest Destiny stage and Jim Crow laws from the USA the idea of inferiority. They made it a given. Riggs hated Don Pedro Albizu Campos not because he was good at organizing sugar cane workers and forcing the sugar industries to double the wages and causing nationalist rebellion in a people who dared to REJECT US citizenship making the US narrative of 'aren't you grateful to be part of this great nation who is BETTER than you are!' but because he was half Spanish of Basque origins (his father was of Basque Spanish heritage and origin and his mother was half Indian and West African), and his father never recognized him as a legitimate son. He was brilliant. Spoke six languages was a great lawyer and helped draft the Irish Republican constitution for Ireland.

Q, what all this means is that Puerto Rico has been battling on many fronts. For many centuries. All those centuries have been about being subject to messages that have had a profound effect on the psyche of Puerto Ricans. On their ability to think, to reflect, and to be self-aware. But dancing and music are kind of therapeutic always. At least it has been for me in my own experiences dancing for many hours eh?

It is not just the noise pollution. It is the pollution related to being seen and treated as slaves and as people with absolutely NOTHING important to contribute to the world. Expendable people of absolutely no worth. How does that affect people in terms of voting and civic responsibilities? Puerto Rico has never had the responsibility EVER really of being fully responsible for its own nation, or its own society.

In Mexico, the Mexicans know that if something fails in Mexican society they have the power and the duty and responsibility to rectify it because they have SOVEREIGNTY. Meanwhile, in Puerto Rico, if something goes wrong NO ONE has the responsibility to rectify it because if they try to do so? It will be overridden by the PROMESA board, the US Washington DC codes on unincorporated territories, and actually US military troops can be deployed, and bombs dropped (that actually happened in PR various times) to give the message that if you resist we will kill you. And taint you are primitive, dumb people who do not know the joys of being US citizens. That justifies too the right to withhold full constitutionally guaranteed citizenship from us.

What I find remarkable given that horrible history Q, is that the Puerto Ricans still believe in themselves, they are starting to vote for independence now more than ever, and they are moving fast on creating an alternative to the constant colonial rule of the island.

But it will not happen if you think trying to remove that message from the psyche of millions of Puerto Ricans in the USA and on the island itself is going to happen without LOVE, compassion, and respect and realizing that the more you care about people and accept them for who and what they are NOW, the more you will be able to open a dialogue with them of real meaning.

Not seeing all of the circumstances that lead to a certain behavior is being blind as well Q.

The Southern part of Spain's culture is very into dance, music, and having a good time, the Taino culture also had dance and so on and having a good time in the Batey. The West Africans loved dance and music and having a good time. All three of those cultures mixed for a long time in the Caribbean and clashed on power relationships, land use, and cultural legacies left behind. But they sure did agree on one thing. Strongly. They loved MUSIC. And dance. And play. And you see it in that noise pollution. Lol.

They want to play music all the time. None of them are alienated Q. They will not be like in the USA where you stop to ask for directions and no one answers you. No one wants to talk to you because they are busy with their agendas and taking time out of their day is a bother.

You can always reach the Puerto Ricans, the Cubans, and the Dominicans because they still believe that despite it all, their first obligation is to human society. Their families and their friends. And since they have not lost it all to alienation yet. And the lights get turned off frequently and the water is shut off frequently and they are without first-world power and first-world lifestyles frequently? They go out and socialize, in the street. Without the boomboxes on they can't get generators or gasoline. LOL.

They are forced to live primitively. Which means, talking to your neighbor. Sleep in the hammocks in the night time and outside where it is breezy.

Look for what works and build on what already is positive Q. If you emphasize what is wrong only you lose in this world—got to build on love and connection to others. You know how powerful that is. You have been advocating for it for YEARS on PoFo.

That is the answer to the dystopia. It always has been.
#15305511
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 how common are noise complaints in Puerto Rico? I can actually understand @QatzelOk's point, at least in Chile it's a source of tensions between Chileans and Venezuelan immigrants (specifically).


Well, it is not good to generalize eh? IN any given culture. But? Venezuelans are loud. So are Puerto Ricans and Cubans and Dominicans. Loud and boisterous. Gregarious too.

My husband for example prefers listening to classical music. Not because he never has been exposed to salsa music, bomba y plena music (West African rooted traditional ritmos from Puerto Rican culture), and other Caribbean based music like el son de Cuba, or Dominican merengue and bachata. No, he knows all of them. The thing is he grew up in a place that had loud, and boisterous music playing all the time. Everyday, and everywhere. He got burned out with that.

Venezuelans are actually related genetically and culturally to Puerto Ricans. The Tainos were Arawak in origin. That meant the original Taino inhabitants were from the Venezuelan jungles. They went out there in canoas or canoes and were skilled mariners. They occupied the island of Borinquen for a long time before the arrival of the Carib tribes from the big islands like Cuba and Española which are modern day Dominican Republic and Haiti.

The entire Caribbean region is named after the Carib people. Who can still be found in a very reduced way in Cuba still.

The Taínos had their own culture, religion and language. They had their political makeup that differed from the Mayan Empires and the younger Aztec empire.

The jungle at night is not a silent place. Or quiet or without life. Hunting is better at night not only for the jaguar or the puma. But for almost all predators in many geographies.

Culturally I would say the Venezuelans are loud. So are we. Very loud in comparison to many other cultures. The Yucatecan Mayans here do not approve of loud talk, or loud ways.

The people who I most found are comfortable with the loud stuff all day have been African continent people Wat0n. Like the Yorubans from Nigeria, the Senegalese, the Cote d´Ivoire, and many others. In terms of religious beliefs from Western Africa you had to be loud to summon the gods and let them know who you were and what you were about. Being silent meant hiding yourself from the greater forces in the world.

Cuba still sings chants and songs in the original African languages and they used the drum to communicate with each other. At night. For many purposes. Many thought the drums were about going to war against the White slaverowners and were banned in the Southern plantations of the US. But, drums in Africa are everything. Intertribal communications, messages full of information like how much distance there was from one tribal land to another, and how many people in a war party, and for socializing. Wedding marches, the drums. Death announcements the drums, births of children, the drums, songs that told histories and stories of the people they were from, the drums. Everything. The drums. A loud, beating heart.

The cultures strongly influenced by the drums of Africa are LOUD. In general.

The Caribbean is a reflection of that influence. Especially Cuba, the DR and PR.

That is why US Americans are very ignorant about Latin American variations in culture. They think all of the Spanish speaking nations are the same in history, culture and languages spoken because of the Spanish colonial influences. But in reality? We vary a lot. In Cuba, Puerto Rico and the DR we wear a Spanish mask and adopt Spanish ways, and now very Americanized habits too, like car dependency and consumerism without forethought in Puerto Rico, but also the very heart of the culture is actually AFRICAN. That loud drumbeat of life.

The Chileans do not share it because being Mapuches and Europeans and Spanish from places like El País Vasco and Barcelona, and regions of Spain with less Moorish influence they are less African based.

The Mapuche were quieter and also incredibly communal and loved living simply. There is something about Chileans that are about that simple living that they like. I have noticed it. Un vinito, un sandwichito. Lol.

Every culture is unique.
#15305515
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 how common are noise complaints in Puerto Rico? I can actually understand @QatzelOk's point, at least in Chile it's a source of tensions between Chileans and Venezuelan immigrants (specifically).


I got carried away with cultural stuff since I am passionate about that aspect of culture.

But it is regulated by the Puerto Rican government.

http://app.estado.gobierno.pr/Reglament ... 809ING.pdf

What time is the noise ordinance in Puerto Rico?
Sec. 9-3.531. Noise standards (residential and nonresidential).
Noise Level Time Period
65 dB(A) 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
55 dB(A) 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.
45 dB(A) 10:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m.

You also have to realize that Puerto Rican cops have fled the island. They make a lot more living in the mainland and working in the mainland. The amount of cops for enforcing laws in Puerto Rico have gone down drastically in the last ten years.

Sergeant Gregorio Matias, who represents one of seven police unions in Puerto Rico, said 10,000 officers have left the force in the last 10 years.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/puerto-ric ... fter-6-pm/

Read that article Wat0n. The island has a cop retention issue. Because the Puerto Rican government has been defunded to pay the vulture capitalists on Wall Street. Cops, firefighters, and all public government employees have been left without essential benefits, low pay and no pay for overtime etc. They fled the island.

My new friend here in Merida is Puerto Rican and was an EMT (Emergency Medical Response medic), she said the crime was bad and the pay was abysmal with no benefits. She moved to Denver. Now, she lives with her husband and they are happy here without the stress and the high cost of living.

That will continue to happen for Puerto Rico. The colonial shit is not working at all.
#15305860
Tainari88 wrote:...My main point is that the Americans came in and reinforced with actual segregationists from the Indian Wars and Manifest Destiny stage and Jim Crow laws from the USA the idea of inferiority. They made it a given...

And before the USA came, the Spanish brought genocide and military culture with them, along with slavery and incredible greed.

Today, it is technology that is colonizing Cuba by invading the personal spaces of every Cuban with electronic noise.

Image

And it isn't just Cuba being colonized by profit-makers who live far, far away. And noise-pollution laws might not arrive in time to prevent the social destruction that non-stop noise causes.

The way you attempted to "change the subject" by taking this particular tangent of mine (noise pollution as social cancer) back to the blocade and the American influence over Cuba...

But really, all societies on the planet are sufferring the nefarious effects of techno-poison, meaning that the "colonizers" are global and not in any way responsible to the citizens of any country.

wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 how common are noise complaints in Puerto Rico? I can actually understand @QatzelOk's point, at least in Chile it's a source of tensions between Chileans and Venezuelan immigrants (specifically).

Here in Montreal, I asked a teenager to "turn her music down" as we were both waiting in line for our sushis. She said "No," and then I ripped into her and what a bad education she has.

I used a respectful vocabulary the entire time I cut her down to size and embarassed her in front of her friend.

Sorry but ignorance of the harm you do... is not a free ticket to do harm.
#15305863
QatzelOk wrote:Here in Montreal, I asked a teenager to "turn her music down" as we were both waiting in line for our sushis. She said "No," and then I ripped into her and what a bad education she has.

I used a respectful vocabulary the entire time I cut her down to size and embarassed her in front of her friend.

Sorry but ignorance of the harm you do... is not a free ticket to do harm.


You're lucky, the Chileans who complain about noise do so because some immigrant neighbors (again, mainly Venezuelans) blast loud music at 3 am mid-week. They often don't stop when you ask them either. Sometimes you can go as far as to call the cops to have them stop, they'll show up and then they'll stop making noise for a while before restarting an hour later or so.

You could at least get away from that, but what happens when your neighbors do it and they don't care?

In the end, as an immigrant, one has to always remember that when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do...
#15305875
wat0n wrote:You're lucky, the Chileans who complain about noise do so because some immigrant neighbors (again, mainly Venezuelans) blast loud music at 3 am mid-week. They often don't stop when you ask them either. Sometimes you can go as far as to call the cops to have them stop, they'll show up and then they'll stop making noise for a while before restarting an hour later or so.

You could at least get away from that, but what happens when your neighbors do it and they don't care?

In the end, as an immigrant, one has to always remember that when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do...


I went last year during March to celebrate my husband's birthday. We rented a beach front little cottage in Campeche state to enjoy nature and the waves. We went to bed around 9pm. The party next door started and it was LOUD. The actual walls of the place we rented were shaking and you could try to speak to your husband or son in the same room as you were but could not be heard at all due to the BAD BUNNY racket.

They rented the place next door all night for Friday and Saturday night.

We wanted our money back. Had to get in the car and go and rent another hotel room in a small town nearby.

Noise pollution is terrible.

But? Again, that party culture is there present in many Latin American countries.

But 3 AM mid week is loud.

And unacceptable.

In Puerto Rico a friend of ours lives near some people who blast music very loud all night long. They are afraid of telling them to lower the volume. Or to turn it off.

Because the last people who did so got shot.

You call the cops in Puerto Rico on people and often they do not show up. They all left according to her story. There is one cop for thousands of complaints.

Colonialism is not working wat0n. You can't overwork cops, firefighters and other public essential employees and not pay them and not give them benefits, and if they can go and make better wages somewhere else with better benefits? They will pack their bags and go.

But who can replace them if the same issues come up again and again.

It will get like El Salvador murder rates. And then the shit will hit the fan. It is either take control of your own society because the Washington DC crowd does not care. Trump will throw paper towels at you and the two major parties can't make any decisions without the Tyranny of the PROMESA panel taking over run by banksters. That is what the thing is at this time.

Colonialism does not work.
#15305892
wat0n wrote:...In the end, as an immigrant, one has to always remember that when you're in Rome, do as the Romans do...


Tainari88 wrote:Colonialism is not working wat0n.


This NOISE AND EMPATHY POLLUTION hijack... is neither about immigrants, nor about colonialism.

It's about empathy and respect for other people in public places.

When this breaks down, no system can survive. A people that ruin themselves with noise pollution or any other kind of voluntary pollution of the environment, are circling the toilet drain.

Bringing up immigration or colonialism inside of this subject... is a way of avoiding the self-harm that societies do with technology, and their seeming inability to save themselves from the destruction.

The First Nations with alcohol... had no prior experience or regulation of this technology, and it destroyed entire societies.

Cuba was spared the ravages of the car companies on North American cities (the destroyed communities, the suburban children with no empathy, the ravaged countrysides full of bunagalows and army-brat-like kids)... but only by being scorned by North American governments and living in poverty for half a century.

Cuba is NOT being spared the ravages of media gadgets and the noise pollutions and empathy-destruction that they provide at everyone's peril.
#15305895
QatzelOk wrote:This NOISE AND EMPATHY POLLUTION hijack... is neither about immigrants, nor about colonialism.

It's about empathy and respect for other people in public places.

When this breaks down, no system can survive. A people that ruin themselves with noise pollution or any other kind of voluntary pollution of the environment, are circling the toilet drain.

Bringing up immigration or colonialism inside of this subject... is a way of avoiding the self-harm that societies do with technology, and their seeming inability to save themselves from the destruction.

The First Nations with alcohol... had no prior experience or regulation of this technology, and it destroyed entire societies.

Cuba was spared the ravages of the car companies on North American cities (the destroyed communities, the suburban children with no empathy, the ravaged countrysides full of bunagalows and army-brat-like kids)... but only by being scorned by North American governments and living in poverty for half a century.

Cuba is NOT being spared the ravages of media gadgets and the noise pollutions and empathy-destruction that they provide at everyone's peril.


Q, there is always a choice darling. Mine is not answering phones or carrying it with me everywhere.

And not dealing with TV and so on.

But, that is everywhere. How does one stop that Q?

There is an interesting placed owned by La Gran Fraternidad Universal. It is an interesting place. No modern gadgets, noise or pollution.

But, they have to make a living. To keep up with maintenance. How do they make money?

That is an interesting dilemma. How do you get money so you can keep your grounds for your ashram maintained. You isolate yourself from modern society and you go and live without any noise pollution.

Most people do not do that Q.

They follow the crowds.

Are you worried about Cuba's future? And all the rest of the nations out there suffering through that?

Stay positive and engaged darling. Do not ever stop thinking of ways of living a more peaceful existence.

We all are stuck with the problems of the many. That is if we live in a human society.

Do not become discouraged.

Buenas noches. I got to visit with my little boy for a while. He is always filled with questions eh?
#15305896
QatzelOk wrote:This NOISE AND EMPATHY POLLUTION hijack... is neither about immigrants, nor about colonialism.

It's about empathy and respect for other people in public places.

When this breaks down, no system can survive. A people that ruin themselves with noise pollution or any other kind of voluntary pollution of the environment, are circling the toilet drain.

Bringing up immigration or colonialism inside of this subject... is a way of avoiding the self-harm that societies do with technology, and their seeming inability to save themselves from the destruction.

The First Nations with alcohol... had no prior experience or regulation of this technology, and it destroyed entire societies.

Cuba was spared the ravages of the car companies on North American cities (the destroyed communities, the suburban children with no empathy, the ravaged countrysides full of bunagalows and army-brat-like kids)... but only by being scorned by North American governments and living in poverty for half a century.

Cuba is NOT being spared the ravages of media gadgets and the noise pollutions and empathy-destruction that they provide at everyone's peril.


If Cubans are blasting loud music in public, and few or nobody complains, it is because it is regarded as acceptable behavior there.

Even if it's pollution, it can be a legitimate cultural expression... It all depends on the social and legal norms in place.

Even doing it at 3 am could be acceptable in some places, the issue is when people do it and it is not or when you don't like when people do it (even though it's both legal and accepted by broader society) and you can't move elsewhere where you don't have to deal with that and be happy.
#15305899
Tainari88 wrote:Q, there is always a choice darling. Mine is not answering phones or carrying it with me everywhere.

And not dealing with TV and so on. ...

In your own private space, yes, you have a choice about whether to have noise all the time (to keep you company), or to have silence so you can keep yourself company with your thoughts.

But in a public space, if YOU play the television on your phone, other people lose all their choices to not listen to it. And if ten people all listen to different noises at high volume, then this public space is no longer a public space. It is reserved to people who have no inner voice, and are thus useless to other people when it comes to advice or wisdom.

Public spaces are NOT for shitting in, pissing in, or listening to private noises in. Public spaces exist in order to cater to everyone, not just a few people who make lots of noise, or crouch down and crap in the middle of the square.

Imagine defending the right of people from certain countries to shit in their public parks and squares. Electronic technology allows a handful of people to make a park unbearable for entire swaths of the public. This destroys the very nature of public parks and their function of uniting different types of people.
#15305901
QatzelOk wrote:In your own private space, yes, you have a choice about whether to have noise all the time (to keep you company), or to have silence so you can keep yourself company with your thoughts.

But in a public space, if YOU play the television on your phone, other people lose all their choices to not listen to it. And if ten people all listen to different noises at high volume, then this public space is no longer a public space. It is reserved to people who have no inner voice, and are thus useless to other people when it comes to advice or wisdom.

Public spaces are NOT for shitting in, pissing in, or listening to private noises in. Public spaces exist in order to cater to everyone, not just a few people who make lots of noise, or crouch down and crap in the middle of the square.

Imagine defending the right of people from certain countries to shit in their public parks and squares. Electronic technology allows a handful of people to make a park unbearable for entire swaths of the public. This destroys the very nature of public parks and their function of uniting different types of people.


Q, that already happens in many public spaces in urban cities in the US, and in many other places. People who poop in public and create issues. That is why many governments are enforcing codes all over the place.

You got hostile architecture in many urban cities like NYC with this:



They need to address the issues with people misusing public spaces.

But the reality is mental health issues, drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness is about lack of services for the ones unable to deal with the pressures of paying bills and coping with that situation.

Now, the teen with the loud music in Montreal that bothered you?

I had to deal with a crazy drug addict trying to attack me in a sexual attack at night coming back from my university long ago.

The misuse of public spaces is the reality for many.

How do you solve that problem? You can do citizen patrols. That might work.
#15306012
Tainari88 wrote:Q, that already happens in many public spaces in urban cities in the US, and in many other places. People who poop in public and create issues. That is why many governments are enforcing codes all over the place.

...


Image
This is Place Jacques Cartier in the recent period. It's been re-landscaped since this photo was taken and it is usually filled with thousands of people in the summer and many hundreds in other seasons. Notice the people who are wandering around admiring the scenery and running into other people along the way.

***

Image
This is what the square looked like during the motorcar age. For many decades, Place Jacques Cartier "welcomed" the new technology called "the car." And look what this "public" square looked like back then. It went from outdoor public market, to private parking for vehicles. These vehicles can kill you or seriously damage your body, so they don't belong in spaces that are meant to unite the public.

This space was destroyed as a public gathering area for about 70 years because of this desire to inject a new technology into what was a public square. Public squares have existed for thousands of years as places to unite people from different backgrounds. Can you see how parking cars on these squares destroyed that function? Can you see how fragile these spaces are, and how cities must regulate them so that they aren't destroyed by techological changes?

What damage does it do when a society loses its public gathering places to new and very violent technologies?
#15306144
QatzelOk wrote:Image
This is Place Jacques Cartier in the recent period. It's been re-landscaped since this photo was taken and it is usually filled with thousands of people in the summer and many hundreds in other seasons. Notice the people who are wandering around admiring the scenery and running into other people along the way.

***

Image
This is what the square looked like during the motorcar age. For many decades, Place Jacques Cartier "welcomed" the new technology called "the car." And look what this "public" square looked like back then. It went from outdoor public market, to private parking for vehicles. These vehicles can kill you or seriously damage your body, so they don't belong in spaces that are meant to unite the public.

This space was destroyed as a public gathering area for about 70 years because of this desire to inject a new technology into what was a public square. Public squares have existed for thousands of years as places to unite people from different backgrounds. Can you see how parking cars on these squares destroyed that function? Can you see how fragile these spaces are, and how cities must regulate them so that they aren't destroyed by techological changes?

What damage does it do when a society loses its public gathering places to new and very violent technologies?


I am still processing what you said about the US being married to war and so on, and the entire price tag being about 8 Trillion dollars and how the US could have had 320,000km of high speed rail built at 25 million dollars per km.

How would the US look with all that high speed rail and restoring a bunch of parking lots back into gardens and pedestrian friendly zones?

Cuba according to my Cuban friend Tanya cried when she bought her first car. It was a dream come true in Miami. She fell in love with the ability to own her first car, drive around. And she did that for a while. Then she gave it up. Tanya hates cars now....she says she would rather walk or go on a bicycle or public transport.

Cars are a burden in many ways.

People have to be exposed to things, and choose to dump it. But what made her change? I think it has to do with growing up a lot without watching TV and walking a lot in her youth.

You have the experience of not being hypnotized by technology.

Looks like Cuba and Technology should be really rephrased as Cubans tried technology and wind up choosing light rail and buses and walking and bikes. Lol.
#15306192
Tainari88 wrote: ...Cars are a burden in many ways. ...

And so are electronic boom boxes. They burden people who "don't want to hear your music" with noise that fills their head with distraction.

The most important concept here - relating to Cuba and technology - is that electronic noises destroy public access to public spaces just like the presence of cars or dogs do.

You might think that your music-car-dog is nice and you might appreciate that you can take these things into public spaces, but these spaces become less PUBLIC when these private things are allowed in.

Public spaces have ALWAYS had rules about what could be brought into them... and these rules are meant to ensure that these public spaces remain public for ... everyone.

Have you ever been to a public park where people let pitbulls run off a leash? Where you had to dodge cars? Where the noise made it difficult to talk to someone? Or to think?

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"Don't be scared. My pitbull is really nice. And my tunes are amazing and you should be exposed to them in order to develop the same taste as me in music."

skinster wrote:Cuba still knows what solidarity looks like.

Welcome back, skinster!
#15306227
QatzelOk wrote:And so are electronic boom boxes. They burden people who "don't want to hear your music" with noise that fills their head with distraction.

The most important concept here - relating to Cuba and technology - is that electronic noises destroy public access to public spaces just like the presence of cars or dogs do.

You might think that your music-car-dog is nice and you might appreciate that you can take these things into public spaces, but these spaces become less PUBLIC when these private things are allowed in.

Public spaces have ALWAYS had rules about what could be brought into them... and these rules are meant to ensure that these public spaces remain public for ... everyone.

Have you ever been to a public park where people let pitbulls run off a leash? Where you had to dodge cars? Where the noise made it difficult to talk to someone? Or to think?

Image
"Don't be scared. My pitbull is really nice. And my tunes are amazing and you should be exposed to them in order to develop the same taste as me in music."


Welcome back, skinster!


Well that pitbull looks scary. I was amazed Q, Cinemex in Mexico allowed a dog to enter the movie theater with the loud surround sound. I have no idea how you would allow a dog to a crowded dark movie theater? First off, it bothers other people. And the dog might get scared with all that gunfire and or noises in one of those Hollywood shoot them up movies. And then freak out, bark and then bust loose running in the dark over people. Fire happens and the dog makes someone trip on the stairwell. It was not a seeing eye dog for a blind person. It was a normal housepet. Things are getting crazy with the pets allowed everywhere. In hotels, motels, malls, parks, supermarkets, restaurants, and now movie theaters. It is crazy.

Now, dog parks I like. I have two dogs. And I like taking them to the dog park. They learn how to interact with other people and other animals. And they have the freedom to run at full speed for a long time until they get exhausted and go home happy.

As for music? Live music in parks are wonderful events. But it has to be a planned event. I do hate rap music a lot Q. I really detest it and the techno crap Euro tech stuff I hate, heavy metal punk crap, I hate, and Norteño music from Mexico I really hate deeply. But I get stuck with that crap playing in public parks. I think that is the price you have to pay if you live in Mexico and you have Sunday afternoon picnics with birthdays being celebrated and this horrific shit music playing very loudly in the park:



That is blasting away. I do mean blasting. The lyrics say Acabame de Matar...which means Finish killing me off....I feel that lyric. Because with that FUCKED up bad oomp pa pa Circus music Polka based shit music is enough to KILL me.

But? I do not tell them to turn it down. You have to get along with others. And the Mexicans are into celebrations and they love their shitty Norteño music that I find appallingly bad. The lyrics are shit. The singers are off key and lousy, and the music is low on good quality and a lot of accordions and tubas and circus shit from another era gone by. The Polka was a big deal in Northern Mexico they came with German immigration from Germany with the Beer making Germans who influenced Mexican music. In the North.

That is why Mexican beer is world famous. German influence. They sure did make a toxic brew with the Mexican polka music. It is horrifically bad. That band El Recodo is famous and all of the members are millionaires selling that SHEER SHIT. Why? Bad taste. People get used to it.

But, the reality is that boom boxes are everywhere Q.

I hate Bad Bunny music. Rap. Raggaeton in Puerto Rico is a fairly recent phenomenon. Never heard that shit growing up in the island. That happened with the influence of New York Puerto Ricans who grew up in the Bronx listening to African American Rappers from the early eighties. Those were kids growing up in ghettos none of them had access to formal music classes in the public schools, they combined urban poetry and improvised fast talking with a very flat beat that is repetitive. it is easy to produce, invent and you do not need to be trained in musicianship. So it becomes a way of influencing the youth. It became a hit. People who grew up in those urban streets marketed it and voila....profit motive shit.

I hate it deeply. I do not think about it much. Because if I do it bothers me. But I refuse to allow my younger son to hear it at all. I hate it and there is too many great artists with real talent to listen to--to waste time listening to crap that is worthless.

Again, how do you change it all? It has to be a social movement.

The US Americans wanted the Mexicans to change the lifestyle of the downtown area of Mérida. Since they owned homes there that they renovated they wanted peace and quiet during the weekends to enjoy it....since the week day pace of downtown Merida is urban and full of people busy working and going to the little markets and etc. They wanted silence. The Americans were told off in no uncertain words Q.

You can't change our culture just because you bought a fancy house in the downtown district. Yucatecans love bar hopping, dancing, noise and parties on weekends. if you do not like it? Move the fuck out is what the answer was Q.

That is what it is.
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