South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15305898
QatzelOk wrote:This structure is extremely racist, and you know it. The mass media's decent into lies and pro-war propaganda have emboldened you to write what is remarkably close to being the N-word. You should be ashamed of your texts.


:lol:

Rich wrote:The point is that the oppression inflicted by Hamas and its associates on 10/7 is a tiny fraction of the oppression that has been inflicted on Gazans since 1967. So called human rights for Egyptian citizens were not fantastic in Nasser's Egypt to say the least, but they got a whole lot worse after 1967. Virtually none of the Gazans alive today were adults in 1967. Most hadn't even been born. Virtually none of the Gazans had any agency in the actions that led to Gaza coming under Jewish control.

There is no precise term for the status of Gaza but lets call it a semi prison camp. Liberals whine like bitches, because North Korea sends children to prison camps, because of the actions of their families, but here we have Israel doing something analogous. Is Gaza as bad as Auschwitz? Is Gaza as bad as an eighteenth century West Indian sugar plantation? Is Gaza as bad as a North Korean prison camp? Well I don't know about right now, but generally over the last three quarters of a century certainly not. But Gaza is still a massive, massive loss of rights of economic opportunity, of liberty even compared with the situation of Egyptians.

Now the Liberal will say, but the attacks of 10/7 are not helping things. They're making things worse. The Liberal will say the attacks of 10/7 were both evil and stupid. The Liberal will say that is not how I would act if I was in that position. The Liberal will say if I was in their position I would act with Arthurian honour just like the oppressed nearly always do in the Hollywood movies. When we see Hollywood movies about World War 2, allied soldiers don't rape German women, let alone God forbid Dutch, Belgian or French women. And if we don't see it, it can't have happened.

The point is that while the choices of a minority of Gazans on 10/7, and the choices of the majority of Palestinains in supporting those attacks may not be wise. If you bring people up in a semi prison camp its no good whinging like a bitch when those people fail to make wise choices.


If the Gaza government wasn't intent on attacking or destabilizing its neighbors, these measures would not be necessary. It is interesting how these standards always apply to one government only.

The average Gazan has little agency here but why would this be a reason to allow their government stir shit up with its neighbors? This makes no sense at all.
#15305911
Pants-of-dog wrote:Note that they are probably discussing the region and not the refugee camp.


They are discussing all those localities, including the refugee camp - which is the only place called "Nuseirat" in central Gaza as far as I'm aware.

So, you have both the Israelis and Hamas' military wing saying the latter operates in Nuseirat.

It would honestly be smarter, on your end, to just say the attacks were disproportionate or something, although whatever constitutes a "proportionate attack" in international humanitarian law is very vague.
#15305928
wat0n wrote:If the Gaza government wasn't intent on attacking or destabilizing its neighbors, these measures would not be necessary. It is interesting how these standards always apply to one government only.

Hamas is not a proper government. Because it is not a proper government, and doesn't have a proper military, It is not deterred by the threat of invasion. A Palestinian state assuming it even happens will never have the power and legitimacy to be able to bring peace. Egypt, Syria and even Jordan have the power to control their populations and stop them attacking Israel, they also fear and want to avoid invasion by Israel. They have a lot to lose by an Israeli invasion. These so called governments of the Palestinians do not fear invasion by Israel because they were never proper states in the first place.
#15305940
Rich wrote:Hamas is not a proper government. Because it is not a proper government, and doesn't have a proper military, It is not deterred by the threat of invasion. A Palestinian state assuming it even happens will never have the power and legitimacy to be able to bring peace. Egypt, Syria and even Jordan have the power to control their populations and stop them attacking Israel, they also fear and want to avoid invasion by Israel. They have a lot to lose by an Israeli invasion. These so called governments of the Palestinians do not fear invasion by Israel because they were never proper states in the first place.


Hamas was a proper government at least until this war, just like the Taliban is in Afghanistan now or ISIS in Syria and Iraq as it would exercise authority over affairs in Gaza. If you wanted to, say, build a road within Gaza you would need Hamas' authorization to do so.

Its military wing is also organized like a proper military, and has been ever since it took over Gaza in 2007. That's what the source I posted earlier says, at least.

Institute for the Study of War wrote:Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses formal military structures, not a clandestine organization operating networked, decentralized cells. Hamas’ leaders structured the al Qassem Brigades to survive Israeli military action by building a resilient military organization with doctrinally correct unit echelons and command hierarchies to facilitate recovery in the face of the loss of leaders or the destruction of elements of units.[22] The al Qassem Brigades organize themselves into echelons from the squad all the way to the brigade level just as conventional militaries do.[23] Militaries design their command structures to ensure continuity of command during combat as units take casualties and leaders die. Commanders prepare their subordinates throughout the chain of command to absorb command duties in the event that a commander is killed or incapacitated. Targeted killings alone will thus not permanently degrade or destroy Hamas. Hamas very likely retains a deep bench of experienced military commanders, most of whom will be prepared to rebuild the organization and train new tactical-level leaders. The commander of Hamas’ North Brigade, for example, held his position for 18 years prior to his death on November 26.[24] Hamas will almost certainly replace him with another capable senior commander as soon as the situation allows if it has not already done so. Hamas has replaced at least one battalion commander killed by the IDF during the current operations within about two weeks.
#15305944
The IDF has shot into a crowd killing or injuring around 400 Palestinians in an incident involving an aid truck north of Gaza City this morning.

104 are confirmed dead as of a few minutes ago.

According to Sky News International, one soldier's nerves got the better of him, he fired his weapon, and the rest of his unit joined in in a reflex action.
#15305945
wat0n wrote:They are discussing all those localities, including the refugee camp - which is the only place called "Nuseirat" in central Gaza as far as I'm aware.

So, you have both the Israelis and Hamas' military wing saying the latter operates in Nuseirat.

It would honestly be smarter, on your end, to just say the attacks were disproportionate or something, although whatever constitutes a "proportionate attack" in international humanitarian law is very vague.


Again, this is circular reasoning on your part.

You are assuming the battalion is stationed at the refugee camp. So this is both a premise in your argument and the conclusion you are trying to support.

And there is still no evidence that a single military objective was achieved.

Unless you have new evidence that does not rely on circular reasoning, this attack is clearly a simple case of mass murder.

———————-

The deliberate bombing of women and children in this refugee camp is not an isolated incident. The attacks against refugees in their camps is a normal and ongoing example of civilians being deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF and Israeli government.

This is to be expected in a structure of settler colonialism.

The ongoing attacks against aid trucks and blockade of humanitarian aid also is consistent with this theory.
#15305948
Destroying tunnels and all associated infrastructure is Nuseirat and elsewhere IS a military objective.

Just because you choose to ignore evidence you don't like it doesn't mean you're right, @Pants-of-dog.

As for the incident in northern Gaza, Israel is saying most of the casualties died in a stampede, which in turn was indeed caused by IDF fire - because people approached the soldiers.



This is why it would make most sense to deliver aid by air, it is probably the safest way to do it for all sides and is probably the most effective way to ensure aid reaches Gazans.
#15305949
We are at the point where the deliberate bombing of refugees, women, and children is being justified on the premise that a tunnel is nearby.

And again, settler colonialism is a structure, not an event. Isolated events can always be justified. But let us look at the broader picture:

    Israeli authorities have kept its supply of electricity for Gaza shut off since the October 7 Hamas-led attacks. After initially cutting the entire supply of water that Israel provides to Gaza via three pipelines, Israel resumed piping on two of its three lines. However, due to the cuts and widespread destruction to water infrastructure amid unrelenting Israeli air and ground operations, only one of those lines remained operational at only 47 percent capacity as of February 20. Officials at the Gaza Coastal Municipalities Water Utility told Human Rights Watch on February 20 that Israeli authorities have obstructed efforts to repair the water infrastructure.

    According to data published by OCHA and the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the daily average number of trucks entering Gaza with food, aid, and medicine dropped by more than a third in the weeks following the ICJ ruling: 93 trucks between January 27 and February 21, 2024, compared to 147 trucks between January 1 and 26, and only 57 between February 9 and 21. A survey of impediments to the entry of aid faced by 24 humanitarian organizations operating in Gaza between January 26 and February 15 pointed to a lack of transparency around how aid trucks can enter Gaza, delays and denials at Israeli crossings and inspection points, and concerns about safety of trucks.

    By comparison, an average of 500 trucks of food and goods entered Gaza each day before the escalation in hostilities in October, during which time 1.2 million people in Gaza were estimated to be facing acute food insecurity, and 80 percent of Gaza's population were reliant on humanitarian aid amid Israel's more than 16-year-long unlawful closure.


https://allafrica.com/stories/202402260423.html

So, electricity has simply been cut off entirely.

Water is operating at about 15% of what it was before the war.

Food trucks went from 500 a day to about 5 a day, while the demand skyrocketed.

And the refugee camps are also being attacked.
#15305953
Israel won't go into Gaza and do any maintenance of its infrastructure if it's not safe (it isn't).

As for the trucks, even UNRWA disagrees with you.

UNRWA wrote:February saw very little aid coming in, with on average nearly 98 trucks entering per day, a 50 per cent reduction in supplies entering Gaza compared to January 2024. The number of trucks entering Gaza remains well below the target of 500 per day, with significant difficulties bringing supplies in through both Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) and Rafah. UNRWA trucks have struggled to enter the Gaza Strip due to security constraints and temporary closures at both crossings. UNRWA has at times had to temporarily stop discharging supplies due to security concerns. Security to manage the crossing has been severely impacted due to the killing of several Palestinian policemen in Israeli airstrikes near the crossings recently.
#15305956
Explaining why and how the Israeli government and the IDF are doing this does not justify or contradict the fact that food, water, and electricity have gone from subsistence levels to starvation levels.

And this does not change the fact that this blockade of essential goods and services is in direct conflict with the interim measures to prevent genocide.
#15305961
The actual figure is 98.

This is close to what the UN itself had set as a goal back on October:

UN wrote:Lives on the line
Commenting on the news of a US-brokered deal, UN health agency WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus welcomed “USA’s leadership and Israel’s agreement to allow food, water and medical aid” into the sealed off enclave through the Rafah border crossing, stressing on social media platform X that “many lives depend on this happening”.

Briefing the Security Council on Wednesday, UN relief chief Martin Griffiths stressed the need for humanitarian actors to be able to “deliver relief to civilians in need throughout Gaza, without impediment, in places of their choice, in places where they consider themselves to be safe and where we can seek to ensure that safety.”

He told ambassadors that around 100 trucks of humanitarian supplies per day were needed to meet the needs of the more than two million residents of the besieged enclave.

According to news reports, equipment has been sent to repair potholes at the crucial Rafah crossing to allow the initial aid convoy in. More than 100 trucks are waiting for the final green light on the Egyptian side.

Israel has said it would allow limited aid into the enclave provided none of it benefits Hamas, which controls Gaza.
#15305962
98 is still starvation levels. But that is the number for February to that date, while 57 was the number between the 9th and the 21st.

The quoted.text makes no mention of UN goals. The only mention of any number of trucks was the amount being stopped by the IDF from entering Gaza.

Edit: There it is. That number is unreasonable, since 500 were needed prior to the war
#15305963
@Pants-of-dog are you trying to argue with the UN?

Can we all do that?

I mean, I think this shouldn't even be measured in trucks anymore, because aid should be airdropped. That would solve all the issues of:

1) Long lines at the borders
2) Difficulty processing the volume of aid
3) Making sure aid is distributed to the population and not appropriated by Hamas, all without any Israeli ground troop presence
#15305967
Many countries are.doing it

The IDF and the Israeli government, however, are the ones controlling Gaza air space. So that creates another way for these groups to choose off humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Much like the way the Israeli government is denying visas to humanitarian aid workers
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