South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 15 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15306068
@Pants-of-dog 98 is quite close to what the UN initially decided was necessary to prevent a famine. If the aid that has entered Gaza is not reaching the civilian population, it is not because of border issues to begin with. It seems the fact that there are still ongoing combat operations and that Hamas is known to take aid for its own ends (shooting at civilians to do so if needed) is a lot more relevant.

I am also not sidestepping anything. I'm simply posting evidence that you don't like.
#15306080
Pants-of-dog wrote:The way you sidestep the whole discussion about genocide is habitual at this point.

Even 98 is still the IdF and Israeli government forcing a famine.

Pants-of-dog, any Israeli reading your posts would think that you are a bit of a hypocrite for taking the "anti-genocide" side of the argument.

You wouldn't be sitting there comfortably typing on your computer... if it hadn't been for all the genocides that made your lifestyle possible.

And yet you would deny the Israeli's THEIR right to genocide their way to a better life?

Europe got to colonize the world...with money that was sourced from genocide in the Americas. Their languages flourished - especially Spanish and English - because of genocide.
#15306095
The number of 100 trucks a day was floated in the first few weeks of the war, when most if the population was still housed, had food in their fridges, and restaurants and supermarkets still existed.

Now the supermarkets are gone, the restaurants are gone, the fridges are gone, the homes are gone, most of the population is unhoused, and the entire Gazan food production system is gone.

Even the markets in the refugee camps are being bombed,

The number of 100 trucks is no longer a target for a viable solution to imminent famine.

This is why aid groups right now are calling for at least 500, Israeli government and IDF policy restricting trucks is (at this point) intentionally causing a famine.
#15306096
Pants-of-dog wrote:
The number of 100 trucks a day was floated in the first few weeks of the war, when most if the population was still housed, had food in their fridges, and restaurants and supermarkets still existed.

Now the supermarkets are gone, the restaurants are gone, the fridges are gone, the homes are gone, most of the population is unhoused, and the entire Gazan food production system is gone.

Even the markets in the refugee camps are being bombed,

The number of 100 trucks is no longer a target for a viable solution to imminent famine.

This is why aid groups right now are calling for at least 500, Israeli government and IDF policy restricting trucks is (at this point) intentionally causing a famine.



The extreme Right, that Netanyahu has, has made no secret of their goal, and it's ethnic cleansing

"It's been about a month since Israel's right wing converged in Jerusalem and called for the conquest of the Gaza Strip, for the expulsion of its local population and for the renewal of Jewish settlement there. That political show of force – at what was called the "Conference for the Victory of Israel – Settlement Brings Security: Returning to the Gaza Strip and Northern Samaria" – reflected the growing might of the messianic right and made instant headlines."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-messianic-radicals-came-to-control-israel-and-netanyahu/0000018d-fb9e-d73a-a9ed-ffbf2a610000?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=Content&utm_campaign=weekend&utm_content=756de821e7
#15306102
Pants-of-dog wrote:The number of 100 trucks a day was floated in the first few weeks of the war, when most if the population was still housed, had food in their fridges, and restaurants and supermarkets still existed.

Now the supermarkets are gone, the restaurants are gone, the fridges are gone, the homes are gone, most of the population is unhoused, and the entire Gazan food production system is gone.

Even the markets in the refugee camps are being bombed,

The number of 100 trucks is no longer a target for a viable solution to imminent famine.

This is why aid groups right now are calling for at least 500, Israeli government and IDF policy restricting trucks is (at this point) intentionally causing a famine.


So what you're saying is that the UN can't even estimate properly how many trucks are necessary to keep Gaza's population fed.

By the way, why is Oxfam opposing measures to actually feed Gazans? Thankfully nobody's listening to them.

#15306107
wat0n wrote:So what you're saying is that the UN can't even estimate properly how many trucks are necessary to keep Gaza's population fed.


No.

I am saying that an estimate made months ago using a different set of assumptions is no longer valid.

The fact that you sidestepped this argument suggests that you have no choice but to agree.

By the way, why is Oxfam opposing measures to actually feed Gazans? Thankfully nobody's listening to them.



And you also sidestepped the argument that the Israeli government and the IDF are deliberately creating a famine among Gazans.

And you have also sidestepped the argument made by Scott Paul: that US support for the IDF and Israeli government is basically support for war crimes, which can not be justified by a few air drops.
#15306111
Pants-of-dog wrote:No.

I am saying that an estimate made months ago using a different set of assumptions is no longer valid.

The fact that you sidestepped this argument suggests that you have no choice but to agree.


Please show 1) they used those assumptions, 2) what's the effect of changing those assumptions (if they were in fact used to arrive to the estimate) on the estimated required trucks sent into Gaza, 3) that there are no other obstacles after they cross the border.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And you also sidestepped the argument that the Israeli government and the IDF are deliberately creating a famine among Gazans.


That's a claim that has yet to be proven, not an argument.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And you have also sidestepped the argument made by Scott Paul: that US support for the IDF and Israeli government is basically support for war crimes, which can not be justified by a few air drops.


And so he'd rather use Gazan civilians for political purposes. Curious, this is basically what Hamas is doing.
#15306118
wat0n wrote:Please show 1) they used those assumptions, 2) what's the effect of changing those assumptions (if they were in fact used to arrive to the estimate) on the estimated required trucks sent into Gaza, 3) that there are no other obstacles after they cross the border.


You forgot that you are the one arguing that they made that estimate. The fact that this number was mentioned in October makes it impossible that this number would take February conditions into account.

But if you wish to weaken your own argument by questioning this number, feel free.

That's a claim that has yet to be proven, not an argument.


You have not addressed the fact that it is these groups responsible for the restrictions on humanitarian aid. They control (at gunpoint) the access routes.

And so he'd rather use Gazan civilians for political purposes. Curious, this is basically what Hamas is doing.


So you have no disagreement that US support for the Israeli government and IDF is the same as support for war crimes, nor do you disagree that a handful of air drops will not change this.
#15306120
Pants-of-dog wrote:You forgot that you are the one arguing that they made that estimate. The fact that this number was mentioned in October makes it impossible that this number would take February conditions into account.

But if you wish to weaken your own argument by questioning this number, feel free.


I'm questioning your interpretation.

Will you answer those 3 points?

Pants-of-dog wrote:You have not addressed the fact that it is these groups responsible for the restrictions on humanitarian aid. They control (at gunpoint) the access routes.


Which groups?

If anything, there are trucks that have already been cleared by Israel that have yet to enter Gaza. And there is footage of Hamas shooting at civilians trying to pick up aid, including minors.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So you have no disagreement that US support for the Israeli government and IDF is the same as support for war crimes, nor do you disagree that a handful of air drops will not change this.


There is disagreement about that. Also, air drops are an effective way to address the lack of access to aid.

Israel has also not obstructed them and it seems they'll be scaled up, with its support.

I also note you don't disagree Oxfam is in fact opposing the airdrops for political reasons and using Gaza civilians for political purposes.
#15306125
wat0n wrote:Which groups?


The Americans and Israelis are preventing aid from entering the concentration they've been attacking for almost 5 months, and these two are preventing the Egyptians from opening the Rafah crossing.

If anything, there are trucks that have already been cleared by Israel that have yet to enter Gaza.


Who's preventing these trucks you made up, to get in?

And there is footage of Hamas shooting at civilians trying to pick up aid, including minors.


You are still making up complete shit? :lol:

There is 0 evidence for your claim, nor is this something Hamas would do. If this was happening, the IDF would be able to observe Hamas fighters and...kill them. But it's not happening. And the minors thing is also complete bullshit coming from a known hasbara troll who is so sick in the head that he comes out with this shit after the Israelis shot with guns and tanks hundreds of Palestinians who were trying to get aid just a couple of days ago. It's known as the Flour Massacre and over 120 starving Palestinians were shot in broad daylight, which there is evidence for, including drone footage.
#15306140
wat0n wrote:I'm questioning your interpretation.

Will you answer those 3 points?


No, those three questions only challenge your claim that 100 trucks are sufficient.

If you are going to attack that part of the argument, feel free.

Which groups?


The IDF and the Israeli government.

If anything, there are trucks that have already been cleared by Israel that have yet to enter Gaza.


Provide evidence for this claim.

Even still, the IDF and Israeli government are still in control over every other aspect of the access routes for the trucks.

And there is footage of Hamas shooting at civilians trying to pick up aid, including minors.


Since you have already justified killing children trying to get food, how is this relevant?

There is disagreement about that.


Such as?

Also, air drops are an effective way to address the lack of access to aid.

Israel has also not obstructed them and it seems they'll be scaled up, with its support.


At best, you can show that other countries have convinced the Israeli government that these air drops can be useful.

It does not contradict the fact that the IDF and the Israeli government are deliberately blocking humanitarian aid in other ways.

I also note you don't disagree Oxfam is in fact opposing the airdrops for political reasons and using Gaza civilians for political purposes.


Since this is just your feels about an Oxfam employee, it is not worth arguing. Feel however you want to feel.
#15306141
Now even a cross section of a congressional delegation of Democrats has come out against Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip .

WASHINGTON (JTA) — Six U.S. House of Representatives Democrats returned from an Israel trip accusing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of “utter disregard for Palestinian lives” and fearing that he is moving toward Gaza’s “total destruction.”

The Democrats — including the most senior Democrat on the House appropriations committee, Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut — made the comments in a statement issued Friday. They represent the breadth of the party’s ideologies and include several with pro-Israel records.

The statement came as President Joe Biden said he would airdrop assistance into the Gaza Strip after more than 100 Gaza Palestinians died during a chaotic aid delivery under disputed circumstances on Thursday.

Speaking briefly Friday with reporters in the Oval Office, Biden called the event “tragic and alarming.”

“We need to do more, and the United States will do more,” he said. “In the coming days, we’re going to join with our friends in Jordan and others who have provided air drops of additional food and supplies.”

The recommendations in the joint statement signed by DeLauro, Sean Casten of Illinois, Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania, Becca Balint of Vermont, and Salud Carvajal and Mark Takano of California were in line with President Joe Biden’s policies, including a call for a six-week ceasefire to facilitate the release of all hostages held by Hamas and the entry of direly needed humanitarian assistance into the Gaza Strip.

But the tone was extraordinary, and could only be seen as a warning that Democrats in the House would continue to veer sharply away from Israel as long as Netanyahu is prime minister.

The six Democrats squarely blamed Netanyahu for the failure to get relief to the Palestinians.

“We are deeply worried that Prime Minister Netanyahu is moving toward the total destruction of Gaza and has demonstrated an utter disregard for Palestinian lives,” the statement said. “Nearly 30,000 Palestinians have been killed – with almost 70,000 more injured and thousands missing. He has shamefully been unwilling to allow humanitarian services in at the scale needed.”

Biden, too, seemed more ready than he has in the past to squarely place responsibility for aid delivery on Israel.

“We’re going to insist that Israel facilitate more trucks and more routes to give more and more people the help they need,” he said. “No excuses. Because the truth is aid flowing to Gaza is nowhere nearly enough.”

Biden has been at pains to defend Israel from charges that it is committing genocide in Gaza, and has until now accepted, to a degree, Israel’s claims that it is not alone to blame for the failure of assistance to enter the strip. Israel says Hamas steals the aid and that it must also contend with a chaotic reality as the war drags on.

Biden’s envoys to the United Nations on Thursday blocked a Security Council resolution that would have blamed Israel for the deadly humanitarian aid debacle. Israel contends that the vast majority of deaths were caused by a stampede, while Hamas says Israeli gunfire was mostly to blame.

On Friday, the number of Palestinians killed since Israel launched counterstrikes topped 30,000, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not differentiate between combatants and civilians. Israel says that more than a third of the dead are combatants.

Israel launched the counterstrikes after Hamas terrorists raided Israel on Oct. 7, massacring 1,200 people and abducting more than 250. The statement from the six Congress members condemns the massacres at the outset and called for the immediate release of the more than 130 hostages remaining captive, of whom about 100 are thought to remain alive.

Hamas said Friday that seven hostages, including three elderly men who appeared in a video it distributed some time ago, had been killed. The group has previously announced the death of a hostage who was later released alive.

The six lawmakers traveled to Israel as part of a delegation organized by J Street, the liberal Jewish Middle East policy group that has affiliated political action committees.

DeLauro, who led the delegation, stands out: In addition to being the top Democrat on the powerful Appropriations Committee, she is a member of the House Democratic leadership and has in the past been close to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the preeminent mainstream pro-Israel lobby. AIPAC’s affiliated political action committee has endorsed her. She is married to pollster Stanley Greenberg, who has been active in pro-Israel advocacy.

But the others are also significant: Casten in 2022 unseated Marie Newman in a primary, a victory propelled in part by pro-Israel anger at her policies. Carbajal is a member of Problem Solvers Caucus, which unites moderates of both parties. Balint is Jewish and a member of the Progressive Congressional Caucus. Dean’s Philadelphia-area district has a substantial Jewish population.

Jeremy Ben-Ami, the J Street president who accompanied the delegation, said the lawmakers were moved by how officials across the spectrum — in Netanyahu’s government, in the opposition and in the Palestinian Authority — saw the U.S. role as “indispensable.”

“If the United States doesn’t lead some kind of a very large initiative to come out of this in a better place, nothing is going to happen,” Ben-Ami said.

He said the six saw up close the devastation wrought by the Oct. 7 attacks and their aftermath, staying in a hotel housing evacuees from Israel’s northern border, where Hezbollah is firing rockets into Israel in support of Hamas.

“The children are playing on the couches next to the members in the lobby as we’re getting ready to go on a tour,” he said. “It’s in the breakfast hall in the morning. The families are getting ready for school and the members are there, getting food right next to them.” Jewish Telegraphic Agency article
#15306150
@skinster here's one such example:



And another one:



It even led to some of Rafah's clans to issue a statement threatening Hamas:



Pants-of-dog wrote:No, those three questions only challenge your claim that 100 trucks are sufficient.


I am simply repeating what the UN estimated.

It's up to you to prove all your claims about why they revised it.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If you are going to attack that part of the argument, feel free.


Maybe less than 100 are sufficient too. Who knows?

Pants-of-dog wrote:The IDF and the Israeli government.


You have yet to prove this.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Provide evidence for this claim.

Even still, the IDF and Israeli government are still in control over every other aspect of the access routes for the trucks.


The videos above are from Rafah, where there's no Israeli ground presence.

It is also not surprising there's a backlog under these conditions, even after trucks have been inspected by Israel or Egypt.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Since you have already justified killing children trying to get food, how is this relevant?


No, I did not justify that. But it's interesting coming from someone who justified the mass rapes and murder of October 7.

How isn't it relevant that Hamas is appropriating the aid? Including by killing children trying to get food.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Such as?


I don't agree. I think Israel could definitely do more, it could do the airdrops itself given how hard it is to deliver aid by land and make sure it is not misappropriated by the various armed groups, but I don't think it is actively blocking aid.

Pants-of-dog wrote:At best, you can show that other countries have convinced the Israeli government that these air drops can be useful.

It does not contradict the fact that the IDF and the Israeli government are deliberately blocking humanitarian aid in other ways.


Like?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Since this is just your feels about an Oxfam employee, it is not worth arguing. Feel however you want to feel.


This is Oxfam saying it opposes airdrops solely for political reasons.
#15306174
@wat0n

"airdrops"

The US has dropped 38,000 meals, ready-to-eat on the 1.5 million Palestinians in Rafah.

and,

As of December, delivered 5,400 MK84 bombs, 5,000 unguided MK82s, 1000 GBU-39 small-diameter bombs, some 3,000 joint direct attack munitions (JDAM), and 57,000 artillery shells for Israel to drop on Gaza, with another 2,000 MK-82 500-pound bombs and KMU-572s on the way this month.


:lol:
#15306176
wat0n wrote:@skinster here's one such example:

And another one:


None of those videos prove your claim that Hamas has been shooting at its own as they were collecting aid. For one, the only people shooting at civilians in Gaza is the IDF, something there is documented record of. Here's one example, when a man spoke to an ITV reporter and as soon as the recording stopped, he was sniped in broad daylight by IDF terrorists.


There is 0 evidence of Hamas or any of the resistance groups threatening their people from getting aid, only the opposite and much anger at Israel, the U.S., neighbouring states and the world in general for denying Palestinians aid as they STARVE, in the statements of Hamas and co. Let me know if you'd like me to share them..

It even led to some of Rafah's clans to issue a statement threatening Hamas:


This clan doesn't exist and there is a reason only Zionists with Israeli flags in their bios are sharing this obvious hasbara. That poster "Hamza" who you shared has a timeline of defending Israel and attacking the resistance in Palestine and beyond...very legit account. Zionists really are so pathetic in their hasbara. :lol:

And those accounts with OSINT are what to Gaza were NAFO trolls re: NATO's war in Ukraine. Do better, wat0n. This is embarrassing.

Palestinians know who's starving them and they don't claim its Hamas. The masses in Gaza and all over Palestine support the resistance.

wat0n wrote:But it's interesting coming from someone who justified the mass rapes...


You're still bullshitting away with the "rapes" or "mass rapes" that did not take place on Oct 7? There's still no evidence for this atrocity propaganda.

New York Times had to retract the same recently after repeating the lies about mass rape, where there was none. Here's a report on that:
#15306193
wat0n wrote:I am simply repeating what the UN estimated.

It's up to you to prove all your claims about why they revised it.


I explained why.

Do you disagree that the IDF has bombed most of the population out of their homes?

Do you disagree that this then means that people cannot access the food in their homes since their homes are no more?

Do you disagree that the IDF has also bombed the restaurants, markets, crops, and other forms of internal food production and disbursement?

Do you disagree that the majority of the population is now reliant on food aid?

Maybe less than 100 are sufficient too. Who knows?


Only if the IDF and the Israeli government have managed to kill about 80% of the population.

But musing about one’s ignorance does not magically make famine less imminent.

The videos above are from Rafah, where there's no Israeli ground presence.

It is also not surprising there's a backlog under these conditions, even after trucks have been inspected by Israel or Egypt.


And since the IDF control access to Rafah, this situation was caused by the IDF and the policy of the Israeli government, restricting food to Gaza.

No, I did not justify that.

How isn't it relevant that Hamas is appropriating the aid? Including by killing children trying to get food.


You just spent pages explaining why the IDF had to bomb a busy market in a refugee camp that had kids running around, Are you now claiming the bombing by the IDF was not juatifued?

I don't agree. I think Israel could definitely do more, it could do the airdrops itself given how hard it is to deliver aid by land and make sure it is not misappropriated by the various armed groups, but I don't think it is actively blocking aid.


The Israeli government and the military are not doing airdrops. Other countries are. So in terms of providing aid that way, there seems to be no disagreement that the IDF and the Israeli government are depriving Gazans of food.

And since these two groups control the birders and therefore control all entry of other food deliveries, there seems to be no disagreement that the IDF and the Israeli government are depriving Gazans of food.

Like?


Like what?

This is Oxfam saying it opposes airdrops solely for political reasons.


Again , you can feel whatever you want to feel.
#15306198
ingliz wrote:@wat0n

"airdrops"

The US has dropped 38,000 meals, ready-to-eat on the 1.5 million Palestinians in Rafah.

and,

As of December, delivered 5,400 MK84 bombs, 5,000 unguided MK82s, 1000 GBU-39 small-diameter bombs, some 3,000 joint direct attack munitions (JDAM), and 57,000 artillery shells for Israel to drop on Gaza, with another 2,000 MK-82 500-pound bombs and KMU-572s on the way this month.




"Children are being starved at the fastest rate we have ever seen"
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