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#15306522
skinster wrote:There never was a "Socialist Zionist", that's an oxymoron. Socialists do not and never have supported genocide, ethnic-cleansing, displacement, ethnosupremacy, apartheid etc. That stuff is for fascists.

Hear it from the horse's mouth:


The history of Socialist Zionism in Israel has been a mixed bag . I take no issue with those who would take issue with the obviously apparent hypocrisy of those who started out proclaiming the liberation of the entire population , only to then turn around and collude with the settler colonization , as Mapam wound up doing , especially as part of the Alignment . However , paradoxically , there had been in the past Arab satellite lists , who collaborated with the Labor Zionists .
But , to quote Simha Flapan ,
To dispel misunderstanding, I want to make it clear that my belief in the moral justification and historical necessity of Zionism remains unaffected by my critical reappraisal of the Zionist leadership. The history of Zionism demonstrates the extent to which the urge to create a new society, embodying the universal values of democracy and social justice, was inherent in the Zionist movement and responsible for its progress in adverse conditions. Israel's problem today lies in the disintegration of these values, due largely to the intoxication with military success and the belief that military superiority is a substitute for peace. Unless the liberal and progressive values of Zionism are restored and Palestinian rights to self-determination within a framework of peaceful coexistence are recognized, Israel's search for peace is doomed to failure. I firmly believe that these trends will ultimately become the deciding force in Israel.


I also have been aware of the role that the kibbutzim has played in the Zionist project , pertinent to the Palestinian Arab inhabitants .

https://tonygreenstein.com/2019/10/what-happened-when-as-part-of-an-experiment-arab-youth-joined-kibbutzim/

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2019-09-26/film-kibbutz-ahmad-palestinian-teens/
#15306524
skinster wrote:That should've been obvious when he skipped past my post of all that documentation of actual rapes against Palestinian women and children.

If wat0n cared about rape, he couldn't defend Israel. Don't give him the benefit of the doubt, Saeko. When someone shows you who and what they are, particularly when it's Zionists in our lordless year of 2024, believe them.


Just like an IDF tank running over and gleefully flattening protestors and ziptied prisoners alike, wat0n simply rides over any inconvenient questions put to him.
#15306526
^ absolutely. This is the MO of hasbara trolls. That poor soul bulldozed to death. Reports are he was bulldozed from his legs upwards as he was incapacitated by handcuffs, and that he was alive when it happened. Zionism sadism is boundless...


@Deutschmania, you have been misled. "socialist Zionism" is an oxymoron. If you're okay with a socialism that acts nazi-esque, with its ethnosupremacy and quest for lebensraum, just say you're a nazi and be done with it. If you support that type of depravity, you are not a socialist, you are a neonazi, or a Zionist...feel free to pick whichever term feels better.

There was no "sudden collusion with settler-colonialism". It was always that. European terrorist militias with the aid of the British army stole the country from under the feet of the natives, brutally murdering and ethnically-cleansing along the way, and driving hundreds of thousands of the natives out.

Zionists in 1923 were honest. Believe them. And if that isn't enough, look at the reality on the ground today and...believe them.
#15306529
Saeko wrote:There are obviously different kinds of Zionists.


A Zionist is someone who believes in Israel existing atop Palestine as an etnosupremacist apartheid colony.

If Zionism is the liberation of Jewish people, then I am a Zionist.


Nobody says that. Liberate Jewish people from what? They live fine all over the world. The only place dangerous to them is the Zionist entity, which about a million have fled from since Oct 7 precisely for that reason.

This is of course, totally different from the ethno-supremacist ideology of the same name in Palestine today.


It is, one is Zionism, an ethnosupremacist and fascistic ideology.
#15306531
Saeko wrote:Some aid is getting there, but the bombs get there faster.


And yet the airdrops are likely to ramp up.

Saeko wrote:I definitely do not oppose any and all efforts to do just that. Only the ones that involve genocide, apartheid, and oppression of a whole people.


Then explain how can Hamas be toppled from power in Gaza without fighting a major war like the ongoing one.

Saeko wrote:Would you support similar "any and all efforts" to defeat the genocidal regime that is currently wiping out the Palestinians? I'm gonna ask again if you would support a Gaza-like annihilation of Tel Aviv to depose said regime, since you failed to answer earlier.


No such thing is happening.

Saeko wrote:So Hamas killing upwards of 1000 people is evidence of their desire to kill as many as possible, isn't The Occupying Regime's killing of more than 30,000 people thirty times as much evidence of their desire to kill as many as possible?


The evidence of that is that Hamas didn't even allow civilians to escape, ambushing them if necessary. Many of the victims were killed in highway ambushes.

Like it or not, Israel has allowed civilians to evacuate.

Saeko wrote:That image says: "Throw the Jews into the sea". Since this is a completely different statement from "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Free" (having only a single word in common), I think we can safely dismiss such an absurd claim.


Nah, it's just a dog whistle.

The former doesn't sound good so it needs to be wrapped in a cloak of respectability.

Saeko wrote:Maybe they have a policy of refusing to negotiate with terrorists?


Even Israel negotiated with the PLO, and it currently is negotiating a ceasefire with Hamas.

Why can't Hamas just negotiate a final status agreement?

skinster wrote:^ :lol:



Dafuq are you talking about? :lol:

They tried to negotiate when they won their election about 15 years ago but the West ignored democracy in Palestine then and refused to engage with Hamas, and ended up blockading Gaza and turning it into a concentration camp (Hamas also won in the West Bank too tho).

They changed their charter in 2017 and still, nothing.

Israel has never been serious about making peace with Palestinians. NEVER, once. Likud's founding document of that made that clear in 1977. Oslo was a complete charade to maintain the occupation and steal more land and more recently, all the leaders of the fascist ruling coalition as well as other ministers have confirmed their disinterest in peace with Palestinians.


Please show me a single peace summit between Israel and Hamas' negotiators.
#15306533
wat0n wrote:Please show me a single peace summit between Israel and Hamas' negotiators.


Are you retarded? I already explained that after Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, the Israelis were upset with the outcome of the vote so decided to ignore the vote and blockade Gaza, and has ignored them ever since. Israel has never shown any interest in negotiating with Hamas, including currently as over 100 Israelis live in the same conditions the Israelis have forced on Palestinians in Gaza (a concentration camp under daily bombardment and famine).
#15306535
wat0n wrote:And yet the airdrops are likely to ramp up.


Since Genocide Joe keeps approving arms sales to the Rape Regime, I think you're right.

Then explain how can Hamas be toppled from power in Gaza without fighting a major war like the ongoing one.


I think that recognizing the Palestinian genocide and putting the genocidal war criminals in charge of the Zionist Entity on trial in front of the Hague would be a step towards the reconciliation that would make the existence of Hamas unnecessary, untenable and undesirable for Palestinians.

No such thing is happening.


No surprise that you would deny it. I never doubted for a single second that you are 100% pro-rape and pro-genocide as long as the right people are doing those things.

The evidence of that is that Hamas didn't even allow civilians to escape, ambushing them if necessary. Many of the victims were killed in highway ambushes.

Like it or not, Israel has allowed civilians to evacuate.


To where? Heaven?

Nah, it's just a dog whistle.

The former doesn't sound good so it needs to be wrapped in a cloak of respectability.


Evidence?

Even Israel negotiated with the PLO, and it currently is negotiating a ceasefire with Hamas.

Why can't Hamas just negotiate a final status agreement?


Why didn't the Jews in Auschwitz just negotiate with the Nazis? Gosh, you're so smart!
#15306536
Saeko wrote:Since Genocide Joe keeps approving arms sales to the Rape Regime, I think you're right.


Sure, rape advocate.

Saeko wrote:I think that recognizing the Palestinian genocide and putting the genocidal war criminals in charge of the Zionist Entity on trial in front of the Hague would be a step towards the reconciliation that would make the existence of Hamas unnecessary, untenable and undesirable for Palestinians.


Nonsense.

Even if Israel disappeared overnight, Hamas would still exist. Why? Because it represents the deeply religious elements within Palestinian society, the type that also doesn't like Western progressives.

Saeko wrote:No surprise that you would deny it. I never doubted for a single second that you are 100% pro-rape and pro-genocide as long as the right people are doing those things.


Actually, it is the left that cares about "who" and not "what". Hence the rape advocacy.

Saeko wrote:To where? Heaven?


Rafah and the humanitarian safe zone in South West Gaza.

Saeko wrote:Evidence?


It's as simple as looking how the same people celebrate the October 7 massacre, hence they're rape advocates.

Saeko wrote:Why didn't the Jews in Auschwitz just negotiate with the Nazis? Gosh, you're so smart!


Right, it may be silly to negotiate with rapists like Hamas and also their advocates, but there are negotiations even now to agree to a ceasefire. Yet Hamas is rejecting one by all accounts.

skinster wrote:Are you retarded? I already explained that after Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, the Israelis were upset with the outcome of the vote so decided to ignore the vote and blockade Gaza, and has ignored them ever since. Israel has never shown any interest in negotiating with Hamas, including currently as over 100 Israelis live in the same conditions the Israelis have forced on Palestinians in Gaza (a concentration camp under daily bombardment and famine).


Hamas could have perfectly announced it seeks talks or that it would abide by the Oslo Accords, but it didn't. That would have ended any blockade.

Not kidnapping Gilad Shalit would have also helped.
#15306538
wat0n wrote:Nonsense.

Even if Israel disappeared overnight, Hamas would still exist. Why? Because it represents the deeply religious elements within Palestinian society, the type that also doesn't like Western progressives.


And if Hamas disappeared overnight, the Palestinian people would, too. Why? Because Israel's government represents the deeply religious elements within Israeli society, the type that hates both Westerners and Muslims.

Actually, it is the left that cares about "who" and not "what". Hence the rape advocacy.


You are confused, wat0n. The only one advocating for rape here is the one who refuses to hold the Occupying Regime accountable for its crimes to any extent whatsoever.

Rafah and the humanitarian safe zone in South West Gaza.


And where are they bombing now?

It's as simple as looking how the same people celebrate the October 7 massacre, hence they're rape advocates.


Which people? What relevance does this have to the phrase, "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea"? Are you saying that Palestine should not be free, wat0n?

Right, it may be silly to negotiate with rapists like Hamas and also their advocates, but there are negotiations even now to agree to a ceasefire. Yet Hamas is rejecting one by all accounts.


Good. I don't see why anyone should accept any sort of terms from a regime trying to exterminate their people.

Hamas could have perfectly announced it seeks talks


It did.

or that it would abide by the Oslo Accords, but it didn't.


It did.

That would have ended any blockade.


It never worked before.

Not kidnapping Gilad Shalit would have also helped.


You know what would have helped to prevent October 7th? Not murdering, raping, torturing, maiming, and displacing hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinians over a period of like 80 years.
#15306540
Saeko wrote:And if Hamas disappeared overnight, the Palestinian people would, too. Why? Because Israel's government represents the deeply religious elements within Israeli society, the type that hates both Westerners and Muslims.


If Hamas disappeared overnight?

The West would likely force Israel to sign a peace agreement.

This government, by the way, is toast and it was already in deep shit even before the war.

Saeko wrote:You are confused, wat0n. The only one advocating for rape here is the one who refuses to hold the Occupying Regime accountable for its crimes to any extent whatsoever.


I am all for holding rapists accountable, I don't care if they are Israeli or Palestinian, Jewish or Arab.

Saeko wrote:And where are they bombing now?


Rafah and also Hamas holdouts in central and northern Gaza.

Saeko wrote:Which people?


Those who set out to celebrate the October 7 massacre.

Saeko wrote:What relevance does this have to the phrase, "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea"?


That's one of their most common cries.

Saeko wrote: Are you saying that Palestine should not be free, wat0n?


Of course it should. It should exist alongside Israel, with clearly defined borders.

Saeko wrote:Good. I don't see why anyone should accept any sort of terms from a regime trying to exterminate their people.


Weird, because it is Israel which has OK'd the current terms, endorsed even by the Arab states. This would allow relief for Gazan civilians.

Saeko wrote:It did.


Not really.

Saeko wrote:It did.


It didn't either. It has also refused to join the PLO or recognize it as the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

Saeko wrote:It never worked before.


There was no blockade during Oslo.

Saeko wrote:You know what would have helped to prevent October 7th? Not murdering, raping, torturing, maiming, and displacing hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinians over a period of like 80 years.


If you want to go back in history with the "it didn't start on October 7" shtick, then let's discuss events like the 1929 massacre and ethnic cleansing of Hebron's Jewish community. There was no Israel to speak of back then.

But you don't want to because, again, this isn't about "what" but about "who".
#15306554
wat0n wrote:This government, by the way, is toast and it was already in deep shit even before the war.

Not if you look at the results of the recent municipal elections.

The far-right made significant gains.


:)
#15306562
ingliz wrote:Not if you look at the results of the recent municipal elections.

The far-right made significant gains.


:)


Those had a very low participation.

Most election polls suggest the current coalition would go from 65 to 48-51 seats. Even before the war, they were suggesting it'd drop to 57-60 seats.
#15306565


wat0n wrote:Hamas could have perfectly announced it seeks talks or that it would abide by the Oslo Accords, but it didn't. That would have ended any blockade.


Why must you insist on speaking such ahistorical nonsense? Hamas weren't in power during the charade called Oslo. That whole farce of negotiations was theatre for a Western audience and the Israelis had no genuine interest in giving Palestinians a state then, even though they requested merely 22% of the 45% the Balfour Agreement offered them. All the details are HERE. Also, the blockade wasn't on Gaza back then. Way to display yourself as a complete moron on this topic. :lol:

Not kidnapping Gilad Shalit would have also helped.


Not stealing a country, committing ethnic cleansing, creating a concentration camp etc. might also have helped with Gilad Shalit not being kidnapped. But history clearly isn't your strong point...
#15306568
skinster wrote:Why must you insist on speaking such ahistorical nonsense? Hamas weren't in power during the charade called Oslo. That whole farce of negotiations was theatre for a Western audience and the Israelis had no genuine interest in giving Palestinians a state then, even though they requested merely 22% of the 45% the Balfour Agreement offered them. All the details are HERE. Also, the blockade wasn't on Gaza back then. Way to display yourself as a complete moron on this topic. :lol:


Hold on, what happened to most of that land that the Balfour Agreement set up for the Arabs?

The PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinian people, Hamas doesn't even respect that.

skinster wrote:Not stealing a country, committing ethnic cleansing, creating a concentration camp etc. might also have helped with Gilad Shalit not being kidnapped. But history clearly isn't your strong point...


Not ethnically cleansing Jewish communities like that of Hebron in 1929 would have helped the Palestinians more than anything else.
#15306575
LOTS of popular people give their 2 cents on their disgust and horror at the genocidal apartheid colony is, here:


wat0n wrote:Hold on, what happened to most of that land that the Balfour Agreement set up for the Arabs?

The PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinian people, Hamas doesn't even respect that.


Again, are you retarded? Hamas didn't gain power until 2006. The Oslo farce occurred in the early 1990s. History and chronology are really things you struggle with, huh. :lol:

As for the Balfour Agreement: Palestinians were offered 45% of the land despite being the majority. At Oslo, the PLO asked for merely 22% of their land, which is Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israelis said no because they wanted all the land and no peace.And that's precisely why things are as they are today. Where a sixth of Israelis have run off after feeling a tiny fraction of what they've imposed on Palestinians for about 80 years. And more will follow. And Zionism will be over. And people like wat0n will deny they ever defended this flavour of fascism...
#15306577
skinster wrote:Again, are you retarded? Hamas didn't gain power until 2006. The Oslo farce occurred in the early 1990s. History and chronology are really things you struggle with, huh. :lol:


I never said Hamas negotiated Oslo. I said Hamas could have decided to respect it, since it was elected to form the Palestinian government.

skinster wrote:As for the Balfour Agreement: Palestinians were offered 45% of the land despite being the majority. At Oslo, the PLO asked for merely 22% of their land, which is Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israelis said no because they wanted all the land and no peace.And that's precisely why things are as they are today. Where a sixth of Israelis have run off after feeling a tiny fraction of what they've imposed on Palestinians for about 80 years.


Israel accepted the bipartition (even if they would have liked different borders) and the Palestinians and the Arab world at large rejected it, more lies.
#15306581
A bunch of Jews in discussion about how they're sickened by the genocidal Zionist entity and hate to be associated with it. Israel does indeed use Jews as a human shield for their gross colony...


wat0n wrote:I never said Hamas negotiated Oslo. I said Hamas could have decided to respect it, since it was elected to form the Palestinian government.


Then you continue to sound dumb because Oslo was scrapped over a decade before Hamas gained power.

Israel accepted the bipartition (even if they would have liked different borders) and the Palestinians and the Arab world at large rejected it, more lies.


This is a complete lie and this article shows exactly how. Likud rejected a Palestinian state ever since its founding document and every single fascist running the show since have done the same. I shared an article on the most recent version of that but you ignored it. Here it is again.

Thanks for living up to the obvious fact that Zionists are merely compulsive liars and nothing before, besides genocidal killers who enjoy starving babies.
#15306582
skinster wrote:Then you continue to sound dumb because Oslo was scrapped over a decade before Hamas gained power.


Oslo was not scrapped in 1996.

Lying won't help you here.

skinster wrote:This is a complete lie and this article shows exactly how. Likud rejected a Palestinian state ever since its founding document and every single fascist running the show since have done the same. I shared an article on the most recent version of that but you ignored it. Here it is again.

Thanks for living up to the obvious fact that Zionists are merely compulsive liars and nothing before, besides genocidal killers who enjoy starving babies.


Likud was not in power in 1947, when the bipartition was approved. The Jewish Agency indisputably accepted the resolution.

Likud was also not in power in 2000, in Camp David.

Camp David was far, far better than what Palestine has now.
#15306587
wat0n thinks putting words together might make it look like they make sense, but it is utter nonsense and I refuse to get distracted by your shitty hasbara techniques and you simply cannot polish a turd either. That turd in question is the apartheid colony called 'Israel', try as you might...

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