South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 35 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15309156
If the only rebuttal to the findings is an ad hominem against the author, we can move on to the argument presented in the paper.

After a preamble discussing settler colonialism, the economic logic thereof, the context of the current conflict, and the legal definition of genocide, she gets down to bRass tacks.

The first argument is the megadeaths of civilians. She mentions evidence like the average number of children killed per day (100 during the initial bombardment, 10 now from malnutrition).

The second is the vast amounts of injuries, trauma, amputations, operations without anesthesia, and other acts of bodily harm. The evidence again includes examples of children (for example) undergoing emergency amputations without anesthesia or even medical equipment.

The third point is the deliberate crafting of an environment where necessary resources are too scarce to sustain life. Famine is mentioned, as well as lack of potable water, lack of housing, and lack of medical facilities.

So those are the acts, but mere acts do not constitute genocide. Intent must also be shown.

Which the paper also looks at….
#15309162
Pants-of-dog wrote:If the only rebuttal to the findings is an ad hominem against the author, we can move on to the argument presented in the paper.


It is not an ad-hominem to point out that the author is selective when considering allegations.



Pants-of-dog wrote:After a preamble discussing settler colonialism, the economic logic thereof, the context of the current conflict, and the legal definition of genocide, she gets down to bRass tacks.

The first argument is the megadeaths of civilians. She mentions evidence like the average number of children killed per day (100 during the initial bombardment, 10 now from malnutrition).

The second is the vast amounts of injuries, trauma, amputations, operations without anesthesia, and other acts of bodily harm. The evidence again includes examples of children (for example) undergoing emergency amputations without anesthesia or even medical equipment.

The third point is the deliberate crafting of an environment where necessary resources are too scarce to sustain life. Famine is mentioned, as well as lack of potable water, lack of housing, and lack of medical facilities.

So those are the acts, but mere acts do not constitute genocide. Intent must also be shown.

Which the paper also looks at….


No such evidence is provided, for example, there is no source for the claim that 10 children are dying from malnutrition every day:

26. Moreover, Israel’s heightened blockade of Gaza has caused death by starvation, including 10 children daily, by impeding access to vital supplies.67 Lack of hygiene and overcrowded shelters could cause more deaths than bombings,68 having created “the perfect storm for disease”.69 A quarter of Gaza’s population could die from preventable health conditions within a year.70


The link on footnote 67 is broken and the closest match I could find does not mention anything along these lines.

Likewise, she also mentions:

35. By mid-December, Israel’s bombs and shells had destroyed or severely damaged most life-sustaining infrastructure, including 77 percent of healthcare facilities, 68 percent of telecommunication infrastructure, large numbers of municipal services (72), commercial and industrial sites (76), almost half of all roads,97 over 60 percent of Gaza’s 439,000 homes,98 68 percent of residential buildings,99 all universities, 60 percent of other educational facilities, including 13 libraries.100 Israel has also destroyed at least 195 heritage sites, 208 mosques, 3 churches, and Gaza’s Central Archives (150 years of history).101 By the end of January, over one million civilians were forcibly displaced southward, their cities devastated.102


Yet the most credible source in all of these, UNOSAT, says on footnote 99:

UNOSAT wrote:UNOSAT Gaza Strip Comprehensive Damage Assessment - January 2024

This map illustrates a satellite-imagery based comprehensive assessment of damage and destruction to structures within the area of interest in the Gaza Strip, Occupied Palestinian Territory, based on images collected on 6 and 7 January 2024 when compared to images collected on 1 May 2023, 10 May 2023, 18 September 2023, 15 October 2023, 7 November 2023, and 26 November 2023. According to satellite imagery analysis, UNOSAT identified 22,130 destroyed structures, 14,066 severely damaged structures and 32,950 moderately damaged structures, for a total of 69,146 structures. These correspond to around 30% of the total structures in the Gaza Strip and a total of 93,800 estimated damaged housing units. The governorates of Gaza and Khan Yunis have experienced the highest rise in damage, with 10,319 new structures damaged in Gaza and 11,893 in Khan Yunis. Gaza City had the highest number of newly destroyed structures, with 8,926 in total. This is a preliminary analysis and has not yet been validated in the field.


30% is a much, much lower figure than she cites, from an official UN body. And it's in line with other comparable conflicts that featured mostly urban battles, conflicts nobody sees as genocidal.

And so forth and so on.
#15309192
The link for footnote 67 worked for me, as did all the others.

It is pretty easy to find evidence of famine and malnutrition killing kids in Gaza:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-isra ... -1.7134478

    Hungry children are dying in Gaza as Israel's chokehold on aid drives territory toward starvation

    15 children are among the first confirmed victims of hunger, health officials say

    …(ellipses indicate the article continues)….


https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj.q619.full

    Women in Gaza are “burying their newborns every day” as they have no way to feed them and are unable to access critical medical care amid supply shortages and a collapsed healthcare system, humanitarian organisations have said.

    “At least 15 children have already starved to death—and this is only the data from one hospital,” said Hiba Tibi, West Bank and Gaza country director for poverty charity Care.1

    …(ellipses indicate the article continues)….


From the link posted above:

    The conflict has also damaged or destroyed essential water, sanitation and health infrastructure and services and limited capacity to treat severe malnutrition and infectious disease outbreaks. With Gaza’s 335,000 children under 5 years of age especially vulnerable, UNICEF projects that, in the next few weeks, child wasting, the most life-threatening form of malnutrition in children, could increase from pre-crisis conditions by nearly 30 per cent, affecting up to 10,000 children.

    “Children at high risk of dying from malnutrition and disease desperately need medical treatment, clean water and sanitation services, but the conditions on the ground do not allow us to safely reach children and families in need,” said UNICEF Executive Director Catherine Russell. “Some of the material we desperately need to repair and increase water supply remain restricted from entering Gaza. The lives of children and their families are hanging in the balance. Every minute counts.”


If the only rebuttal is that the math to calculate the average is not easily found on the internet, then there is no refutation of the fact that children are dying from famine as we speak and that the reason is the IDF and Israeli government are withholding aid.
#15309201
Pants-of-dog wrote:The link for footnote 67 worked for me, as did all the others.


Is it this one?

https://www.wfp.org/news/preventing-fam ... s-and-more

Pants-of-dog wrote:It is pretty easy to find evidence of famine and malnutrition killing kids in Gaza:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-isra ... -1.7134478



https://www.bmj.com/content/384/bmj.q619.full



From the link posted above:



If the only rebuttal is that the math to calculate the average is not easily found on the internet, then there is no refutation of the fact that children are dying from famine as we speak and that the reason is the IDF and Israeli government are withholding aid.


None of this is the 10 children starved to death/day she cited, and which was presented as evidence of famine.

If that was the case, there would be over 700 children who have starved to death since January 15.

ingliz wrote:@wat0n


30%

The most recent numbers I could find obtained using satellite imagery show that at least 50% (157,200 buildings and counting) have been damaged or destroyed in Gaza.




:)


The estimates are very sensitive to the resolution of the images. Low definition images will overestimate the extent of the damage since they will tend to count all buildings around a single pixel as damaged if the algorithm detects damage in one.

I would guess UNOSAT has higher resolution images than open source analysts have access to since it exists precisely for this type of assessment.

It's interesting though, how now the UN is not credible when it doesn't suit you.
#15309204
There seems to be no argument that famine is killing kids in Gaza and that the IDF and Israeli government have created the famine.

The only criticism seems to be an inability to find how the average was worked out.

Being unable to find some math on the internet does not disprove genocide.
#15309207
The source for the number of dead children comes from hospitals in Gaza.

The number was almost certainly calculated by taking these numbers and dividing by the number of days covered in that period.

Since Gaza only has about ten hospitals left, this amounts to one kid per day per hospital. This is very plausible number and is probably a low estimate, since it does not include the people who are unable to get to a hospital or die somewhere else.
#15309210
Pants-of-dog wrote:The source for the number of dead children comes from hospitals in Gaza.

The number was almost certainly calculated by taking these numbers and dividing by the number of days covered in that period.

Since Gaza only has about ten hospitals left, this amounts to one kid per day per hospital. This is very plausible number and is probably a low estimate, since it does not include the people who are unable to get to a hospital or die somewhere else.


I am still waiting for the source saying 10 kids die of starvation each day. She claimed it as a fact, not as something "plausible", this "very plausible number" is something you have literally just made up.

Also, I will remind you that the same MoH in Gaza claimed 471 were killed in the Al Ahli blast, even though all available evidence says this is not the case.
#15309211
wat0n wrote:The link on footnote 67 is broken...


Pants-of-dog wrote:The link for footnote 67 worked for me, as did all the others...


Yes, but powerful racists are genociding a people that they have been targetting with hatred for a century.

Does the functionning of footnote 67 qualify as 1. "spam" or as 2. "interesting information to debate while a people are wiped off the face of the Earth by the World's Most Enduring Racists?"

1 or 2?
#15309214
wat0n wrote:...Except when such canard is used to justify mass murder and mass rape, as you do @QatzelOk.

It would not be the first time Jews have been accused of committing murder to justify massacring them.

Wow. You found some words that you could write a response with.

This is how you expect to win this thread, wat0n. With the sheer number of bland responses you make.

The dumb will be fooled, and you will feel like you won something.

"I replied to every anti-Israel post with the talking points I was told to respond with. I'm winning!"

That's what your people are telling you, right. That you're winning something... over the crushed bodies of thousands of innocent children. Winning.
#15309217
QatzelOk wrote:Wow. You found some words that you could write a response with.

This is how you expect to win this thread, wat0n. With the sheer number of bland responses you make.

The dumb will be fooled, and you will feel like you won something.

"I replied to every anti-Israel post with the talking points I was told to respond with. I'm winning!"

That's what your people are telling you, right. That you're winning something... over the crushed bodies of thousands of innocent children. Winning.


This inane response suggests you have no arguments to make.

Like, for example, that an UN report is making unsourced factual claims.
#15309221
wat0n wrote:...UN report is making unsourced factual claims.

Get 'em for plagiarism!

Accuse 'em of anti-semitic blood lible.

Remind 'em of the exact number of victims during the Holocaust. Flare your nostril while you say the word "ho-lo-caust."

Then kill another hundred children and call it a day.
#15309222
QatzelOk wrote:Get 'em for plagiarism!

Accuse 'em of anti-semitic blood lible.

Remind 'em of the exact number of victims during the Holocaust. Flare your nostril while you say the word "ho-lo-caust."

Then kill another hundred children and call it a day.


Funny coming from you:

QatzelOk wrote:The invaders were racists. They learned their racism in Europe.

This is the important difference between these well-armed, Crusading Euros, and the welcoming people whose lands they invaded.

If the First Nations had known about this European "racism," they would have killed every one of them as they got off their boats.


I think it's entirely logical to expect UN rapporteurs to provide evidence for their claims.
#15309225
wat0n wrote:...I think it's entirely logical to expect UN rapporteurs to provide evidence for their claims.

And if they don't, you can always have them killed by your hitmen.

Who does the UN think they are? Don't they realize that their only function is to passify the human animals whose "countries"are represented there?

#15309226
@wat0n

Your numbers are 2 months out of date.

low resolution

Wrong!

It used to be that the best you could buy as a civilian were ’50 cm’ images. Which meant the smallest feature you could distinguish was 50 centimeters across.

In 2014, the U.S. Government eased restrictions to allow civilian sales of '31 cm' images.

For the metrically challenged ...

That's 12-inches.


:lol:
#15309230
QatzelOk wrote:And if they don't, you can always have them killed by your hitmen.

Who does the UN think they are? Don't they realize that their only function is to passify the human animals whose "countries"are represented there?



If they don't, they discredit themselves.

ingliz wrote:@wat0n

Your numbers are 2 months out of date.


Wrong!

It used to be that the best you could buy as a civilian were ’50 cm’ images. Which meant the smallest feature you could distinguish was 50 centimeters across.

In 2014, the U.S. Government eased restrictions to allow civilian sales of '31 cm' images.

For the metrically challenged ...

That's 12-inches.


:lol:


Poor argument :lol:

UNOSAT will still have access to higher definition satellites.

The latest available assessment estimates ~35% of Gaza's buildings have been destroyed or damaged:

UNOSAT, March 20 2024 wrote:UNOSAT Gaza Strip Comprehensive Building & Housing Unit Damage Assessment - March 2024

This map illustrates a satellite-imagery based comprehensive assessment of damage and destruction to structures within the area of interest in the Gaza Strip, Occupied Palestinian Territory, based on images collected on 29 February 2024 when compared to images collected on 1 May 2023, 10 May 2023, 18 September 2023, 15 October 2023, 7 November 2023, 26 November 2023, and 6-7 January 2024. According to satellite imagery analysis, UNOSAT identified 31,198 destroyed structures, 16,908 severely damaged structures and 40,762 moderately damaged structures, for a total of 88,868 structures. These correspond to around 35% of the total structures in the Gaza Strip and a total of 121,400 estimated damaged housing units. The governorates of Khan Yunis and Gaza have experienced the highest rise in damage, with 12,279 new structures damaged in Khan Yunis and 2,010 in Gaza. Khan Yunis City had the highest number of newly destroyed structures, with 6,663 in total. This is a preliminary analysis and has not yet been validated in the field.


Much, much lower than (say) the percentage of buildings damaged or destroyed in Mariupol.
Last edited by wat0n on 27 Mar 2024 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
#15309231
The evidence for the children dying of starvation has been presented. Every major humanitarian aid agency in the world is openly discussing it. There is no evidence at all disputing this tragedy.

If someone wants to find out how one paper calculated a specific average, Google might help.
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