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#15309443
A new film has been released destroying the official narrative of Oct 7. Jonathan Cook wrote about it here:

We were lied into the Gaza genocide.
Myth-busting documentary finally breaks the stranglehold of Israel and its western media acolytes over the story of what happened on 7 October

For weeks, as Gaza was battered with bombs and the body count in the tiny enclave rose inexorably, western publics had little choice but to rely on Israel’s word for what happened on 7 October. Some 1,150 Israelis were killed during an unprecedented attack on Israeli communities and military posts next to Gaza.

Beheaded babies, a pregnant woman with her womb cut open and the foetus stabbed, children put in ovens, hundreds of people burned alive, mutilation of corpses, a systematic campaign of indescribably savage rapes and acts of necrophilia.

Western politicians and media lapped it up, repeating the allegations uncritically while ignoring Israel’s genocidal rhetoric and increasingly genocidal military operations these claims supported.

Then, as the mountain of bodies in Gaza grew still higher, the supposed evidence was shared with a few, select western journalists and influencers. They were invited to private screenings of footage carefully curated by Israeli officials to paint the worst possible picture of the Hamas operation.

These new initiates offered few details but implied the footage confirmed many of the horrors. They readily repeated Israeli claims that Hamas was “worse than Isis”, the Islamic State group.

The impression of unparalleled depravity from Hamas was reinforced by the willingness of the western media to allow Israeli spokespeople, Israel’s supporters and western politicians to continue spreading unchallenged the claim that Hamas had committed unspeakable, sadistic atrocities – from beheading and burning babies to carrying out a campaign of rapes.

The only journalist in the British mainstream media to dissent was Owen Jones. Agreeing that Israel’s video showed terrible crimes committed against civilians, he noted that none of the barbarous acts listed above were included.

What was shown instead were the kind of terrible crimes against civilians all too familiar in wars and uprisings.

Whitewashing genocide
Jones faced a barrage of attacks from colleagues accusing him of being an atrocity apologist. His own newspaper, the Guardian, appears to have prevented him from writing about Gaza in its pages as a consequence.

Now, after nearly six months, the exclusive narrative stranglehold on those events by Israel and its media acolytes has finally been broken.

Last week, Al Jazeera aired an hour-long documentary, called simply “October 7”, that lets western publics see for themselves what took place. It seems that Jones’ account was closest to the truth.

Yet, Al Jazeera’s film goes further still, divulging for the first time to a wider audience facts that have been all over the Israeli media for months but have been carefully excluded from western coverage. The reason is clear: those facts would implicate Israel in some of the atrocities it has been ascribing to Hamas for months.

Middle East Eye highlighted these glaring plot holes in the West’s media narrative way back in December. Nothing has been done to correct the record since.

The establishment media has proved it is not to be trusted. For months it has credulously recited Israeli propaganda in support of a genocide.

But that is only part of the indictment against it. Its continuing refusal to report on the mounting evidence of Israel’s perpetration of crimes against its own civilians and soldiers on 7 October suggests it has been intentionally whitewashing Israel’s slaughter in Gaza.

Al Jazeera’s investigations unit has gathered many hundreds of hours of film from bodycams worn by Hamas fighters and Israeli soldiers, dashcams and CCTV to compile its myth-busting documentary.

It demonstrates five things that upend the dominant narrative that has been imposed by Israel and the western media.

First, the crimes Hamas committed against civilians in Israel on 7 October - and those it did not - have been used to overshadow the fact that it carried out a spectacularly sophisticated military operation on 7 October in breaking out of a long-besieged Gaza.

The group knocked out Israel’s top-flight surveillance systems that had kept the enclave’s 2.3 million inhabitants imprisoned for decades. It smashed holes in Israel’s highly fortified barrier surrounding Gaza in at least 10 locations. And it caught unawares Israel’s many military camps next to the enclave that had been enforcing the occupation at arms’ length.

More than 350 Israeli soldiers, armed police and guards were killed that day.

A colonial arrogance
Second, the documentary undermines the conspiracy theory that Israeli leaders allowed the Hamas attack to justify the ethnic cleansing of Gaza – a plan Israel has been actively working on since at least 2007, when it appears to have received US approval.

True, Israeli intelligence officials involved in the surveillance of Gaza had been warning that Hamas was preparing a major operation. But those warnings were discounted not because of a conspiracy. After all, none of the senior echelons in Israel stood to benefit from what unfolded on 7 October.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is finished politically as a result of the Hamas attack, and will likely end up in jail after the current carnage in Gaza ends.

Israel’s genocidal response to 7 October has made Israel’s brand so toxic internationally, and more so with Arab publics in the region, that Saudi Arabia has had to break off plans for a normalisation agreement, which had been Israel and Washington’s ultimate hope.

And the Hamas operation has crushed the worldwide reputation of the Israeli military for invincibility. It has inspired Yemen's Ansar Allah (the Houthis) to attack vessels in the Red Sea. It is emboldening Israel’s arch-enemy, Hezbollah, in neighbouring Lebanon. It has reinvigorated the idea that resistance is possible across the much-oppressed Middle East.

No, it was not a conspiracy that opened the door to Hamas’ attack. It was colonial arrogance, based on a dehumanising view shared by the vast majority of Israelis that they were the masters and that the Palestinians – their slaves – were far too primitive to strike a meaningful blow.

The attacks of 7 October should have forced Israelis to reassess their dismissive attitude towards the Palestinians and address the question of whether Israel’s decades-long regime of apartheid and brutal subjugation could – and should – continue indefinitely.

Predictably, Israelis ignored the message of Hamas’ attack and dug deeper into their colonial mindset.

The supposed primitivism that, it was assumed, made the Palestinians too feeble an opponent to take on Israel’s sophisticated military machine has now been reframed as proof of a Palestinian barbarousness that makes Gaza’s entire population so dangerous, so threatening, that they have to be wiped out.

The Palestinians who, most Israelis had concluded, could be caged like battery chickens indefinitely, and in ever-shrinking pens, are now viewed as monsters that have to be culled. That impulse was the genesis of Israel’s current genocidal plan for Gaza.

Suicide mission
The third point the documentary clarifies is that Hamas’s wildly successful prison break undid the larger operation.

The group had worked so hard on the fearsome logistics of the breakout – and prepared for a rapid and savage response from Israel’s oppressive military machine – that it had no serious plan for dealing with a situation it could not conceive of: the freedom to scour Israel’s periphery, often undisturbed for many hours or days.

Hamas fighters entering Israel had assumed that most were on a suicide mission. According to the documentary, the fighters’ own assumption was that between 80 and 90 per cent would not make it back.

The aim was not to strike some kind of existential blow against Israel, as Israeli officials have asserted ever since in their determined rationalisation of genocide. It was to strike a blow against Israel’s reputation for invincibility by attacking its military bases and nearby communities, and dragging as many hostages as possible back into Gaza.

They would then be exchanged for the thousands of Palestinian men, women and children held in Israel’s military incarceration system – hostages labelled “prisoners”.

As Hamas spokesman Bassem Naim explained to Al Jazeera, the breakout was meant to thrust Gaza’s desperate plight back into the spotlight after many years in which international interest in ending Israel’s siege had waned.

Of discussions in the group’s political bureau, he says the consensus was: “We have to take action. If we don’t do it, Palestine will be forgotten, totally deleted from the international map.”

For 17 years, Gaza had gradually been strangled to death. Its population had tried peaceful protests at the militarised fence around their enclave and been picked off by Israeli snipers. The world had grown so used to Palestinian suffering, it had switched off.

The 7 October attack was intended to change that, especially by re-inspiring solidarity with Gaza in the Arab world and by bolstering Hamas’ regional political position.

It was intended to make it impossible for Saudi Arabia – the main Arab power broker in Washington – to normalise with Israel, completing the marginalisation of the Palestinian cause in the Arab world.

Judged by these criteria, Hamas’s attack was a success.

Loss of focus
But for many long hours – with Israel caught entirely off-guard, and with its surveillance systems neutralised – Hamas did not face the military counter-strike it expected.

Three factors seem to have led to a rapid erosion of discipline and purpose.

With no meaningful enemy to confront or limit Hamas’ room for manoeuvre, the fighters lost focus. Footage shows them squabbling about what to do next as they freely wander around Israeli communities.

That was compounded by the influx of other armed Palestinians who piggybacked on Hamas’ successful breakout and the lack of an Israeli response. Many suddenly found themselves with the chance to loot or settle scores with Israel – by killing Israelis – for years of suffering in Gaza.

And the third factor was Hamas stumbling into the Nova music festival, which had been relocated by the organisers at short notice close to the fence around Gaza.

It quickly became the scene of some of the worst atrocities, though none resembling the savage excesses described by Israel and the western media.

Footage shows, for example, Palestinian fighters throwing grenades into concrete shelters where many dozens of festivalgoers were sheltering from the Hamas attack. In one clip, a man who runs out is gunned down.

Fourth, Al Jazeera was able to confirm that the most extreme, sadistic and depraved atrocities never took place. They were fabricated by Israeli soldiers, officials and emergency responders.

One figure central to this deception was Yossi Landau, a leader of the Jewish religious emergency response organisation, Zaka. He and his staff concocted outlandish tales that were readily amplified not only by a credulous western press corps but by senior US officials too.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken graphically told of a family of four being butchered at the breakfast table. The father’s eye was gouged out in front of his two children, aged eight and six. The mother’s breast was cut off. The girl’s foot was amputated, and the boy’s fingers cut off, before they were all executed. The executioners then sat down and had a meal next to their victims.

Except the evidence shows none of that actually happened.

Landau has also claimed that Hamas tied up dozens of children and burned them alive at Kibbutz Be’eri. Elsewhere, he has recalled a pregnant woman who was shot dead and her belly cut open and the foetus stabbed.

Officials at the kibbutz deny any evidence for these atrocities. Landau’s accounts do not tally with any of the known facts. Only two babies died on 7 October, both killed unintentionally.

When challenged, Landau offers to show Al Jazeera a photo on his phone of the stabbed foetus, but is filmed admitting he is unable to do so.

Fabricating atrocities
Similarly, Al Jazeera’s research finds no evidence of systematic or mass rape on 7 October. In fact, it is Israel that has been blocking efforts by international bodies to investigate any sexual violence that day.

Respected outlets like the New York Times, the BBC and Guardian have repeatedly breathed credibility into the claims of systematic rape by Hamas, but only by unquestioningly repeating Israeli atrocity propaganda.

Madeleine Rees, secretary general of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, told Al Jazeera: “A state has instrumentalised the horrific attacks on women in order, we believe, to justify an attack on Gaza, of which the majority suffering are other women.”

In other cases, Israel has blamed Hamas for mutilating the bodies of Israeli victims, including by driving over them, smashing their pelvises. In several cases, Al Jazeera’s investigation showed that the bodies were of Hamas fighters mutilated or driven over by Israeli soldiers.

The documentary notes that reporting by the Israeli media – followed by the western media – “focuses not on the crimes they [Hamas] committed but on the crimes they did not”.

The question is why, when there were plenty of real atrocities by Hamas to report, did Israel feel the need to fabricate even worse ones? And why, especially after the initial fabrication of beheaded babies was debunked, did the western media carry on credulously recycling improbable stories of Hamas savagery?

The answer to the first question is that Israel needed to manufacture a favourable political climate that would excuse its genocide in Gaza as necessary.

Netanyahu is shown congratulating Zaka’s leaders on their role in influencing world opinion: “We need to buy time, which we gain by turning to world leaders and to public opinion. You have an important role in influencing public opinion, which also influences leaders.”

The answer to the second is that western journalists’ racist preconceptions ensured they would be easily persuaded that brown people were capable of such barbarity.

'Hannibal directive'
Fifth, Al Jazeera documents months of Israeli media coverage demonstrating that some of the atrocities blamed on Hamas – particularly relating to the burning alive of Israelis – were actually Israel’s responsibility.

Deprived of functioning surveillance, an enraged Israeli military machine lashed out blindly. Video footage from Apache helicopters shows them firing wildly on cars and figures heading towards Gaza, unable to determine whether they are targeting fleeing Hamas fighters or Israelis taken hostage by Hamas.

In at least one case, an Israeli tank fired a shell into a building in Kibbutz Be’eri, killing the 12 Israeli hostages inside. One, 12-year-old Liel Hetsroni, whose charred remains meant she could not be identified for weeks, became the poster child for Israel’s campaign to tar Hamas as barbarians for burning her alive.

The commander in charge of the rescue efforts at Be’eri, Colonel Golan Vach, is shown fabricating to the media a story about the house Israel itself had shelled. He claimed Hamas had executed and burned eight babies in the house. In fact, no babies were killed there – and those who did die in the house were killed by Israel.

The widespread devastation in kibbutz communities – still blamed on Hamas – suggests that Israel’s shelling of this particular house was far from a one-off. It is impossible to determine how many more Israelis were killed by “friendly fire”.

These deaths appear to have been related to the hurried invocation by Israel that day of its so-called “Hannibal directive” – a secretive military protocol to kill Israeli soldiers to prevent them from being taken hostage and becoming bargaining chips for the release of Palestinians held hostage in Israeli jails.

In this case, the directive looks to have been repurposed and used against Israeli civilians too. Extraordinarily, though there has been furious debate inside Israel about the Hannibal directive’s use on 7 October, the western media has remained completely silent on the subject.

Woeful imbalance
The one issue largely overlooked by Al Jazeera is the astonishing failure of the western media across the board to cover 7 October seriously or investigate any of the atrocities independently of Israel’s own self-serving accounts.

The question hanging over Al Jazeera’s documentary is this: how is it possible that no British or US media organisation has undertaken the task that Al Jazeera took on? And further, why is it that none of them appear ready to use Al Jazeera’s coverage as an opportunity to revisit the events of 7 October?

In part, that is because they themselves would be indicted by any reassessment of the past five months. Their coverage has been woefully unbalanced: wide-eyed acceptance of any Israeli claim of Hamas atrocities, and similar wide-eyed acceptance of any Israeli excuse for its slaughter and maiming of tens of thousands of Palestinian children in Gaza.

But the problem runs deeper.

This is not the first time that Al Jazeera has shamed the western press corps on a subject that has dominated headlines for months or years.

Back in 2017, an Al Jazeera investigation called The Lobby showed that Israel was behind a campaign to smear Palestinian solidarity activists as antisemites in Britain, with Jeremy Corbyn the ultimate target.

That smear campaign continued to be wildly successful even after the Al Jazeera series aired, not least because the investigation was uniformly ignored. British media outlets swallowed every piece of disinformation spread by Israeli lobbyists on the issue of antisemitism.

A follow-up on a similar disinformation campaign waged by the pro-Israel lobby in the US was never broadcast, apparently after diplomatic threats from Washington to Qatar. The series was eventually leaked to the Electronic Intifada website.

Then 18 months ago, Al Jazeera broadcast an investigation called The Labour Files, showing how senior officials in Britain’s Labour Party, assisted by the UK media, waged a covert plot to stop Corbyn from ever becoming prime minister. Corbyn, Labour’s democratically elected leader, was an outspoken critic of Israel and supporter of justice for the Palestinian people.

Once again, the British media, which had played such a critical role in helping to destroy Corbyn, ignored the Al Jazeera investigation.

There is a pattern here that can be ignored only through wilful blindness.

Israel and its partisans have unfettered access to western establishments, where they fabricate claims and smears that are readily amplified by a credulous press corps.

And those claims only ever work to Israel’s advantage, and harm the cause of ending decades of brutal subjugation of the Palestinian people by an Israeli apartheid regime now committing genocide.

Al Jazeera has once again shown that, on matters that western establishments consider the most vital to their interests – such as support for a highly militarised client state promoting the West’s control over the oil-rich Middle East – the western press is not a watchdog on power but the establishment’s public relations arm.

Al Jazeera’s investigation has not just revealed the lies Israel spread about 7 October to justify its genocide in Gaza. It reveals the utter complicity of western journalists in that genocide.
https://jonathancook.substack.com/p/we- ... =143038555


Here is the film. Watch it before talking about this topic so that you are not speaking from a position of ignorance.
#15309448
It is easy to tell the tunnel was made of pre fab sections by looking at the photo in the linked article from The Times Of Israel.

Image

Note that all the units are the same dimensions, colour, finish, and composition. This is typical of pre fab sections that are made in controlled environments.

To install these units, the tunnel would need to be open above and each unit would have been lowered into place by a crane.
#15309454
Pants-of-dog wrote:It is easy to tell the tunnel was made of pre fab sections by looking at the photo in the linked article from The Times Of Israel.

Image

Note that all the units are the same dimensions, colour, finish, and composition. This is typical of pre fab sections that are made in controlled environments.

To install these units, the tunnel would need to be open above and each unit would have been lowered into place by a crane.


...Which is also not impossible for Hamas to have done and indeed Hamas did carry out public works in the Salah al-Din highway under which the tunnels were found in 2010.

But hey, we should assume the tunnels don't exist because they may or may have not been built using prefab, based on "trust me bro".

And we should ignore Qassam's own admission of its Nuseirat Battalion or the first-hand testimony of Amit Soussana, as @skinster is desperately doing to justify her demand of footage to satisfy her rape fetish.
#15309461
@wat0n

Your obsession with sexual violence is reaching @PufferFish levels and is quite disturbing.

Pofo safeguarding initiative ...

Have you thought of seeking professional help?

If you're experiencing sexually intrusive thoughts or obsessions, you’ll likely be experiencing lower well-being and self-esteem, and be at greater risk of stress, anxiety, and depression.

Psychosexual therapy can help before things get to this stage.
#15309462
ingliz wrote:@wat0n

Your obsession with sexual violence is reaching @PufferFish levels and is quite disturbing.

Pofo safeguarding initiative ...

Have you thought of seeking professional help?

If you're experiencing sexually intrusive thoughts or obsessions, you’ll likely be experiencing lower well-being and self-esteem, and be at greater risk of stress, anxiety, and depression.

Psychosexual therapy can help before things get to this stage.


Fact is, we have a hostage (Amit Soussana) saying publicly she was raped. What do the likes of @skinster do? Demand footage.

You should redirect her to seek help. Wanting (indeed, demanding) to watch footage of rape is fucked up as it is.

OTOH, weren't you justifying rape as well? Are you sure everything is going well in Malta, @ingliz?
#15309465
skinster wrote:A new film has been released destroying the official narrative of Oct 7. Jonathan Cook wrote about it here:



Here is the film. Watch it before talking about this topic so that you are not speaking from a position of ignorance.


Pretty much the only report on Oct 7th I've ever seen that doesn't reek of bullshit.
#15309469
If the tunnels were built by Hamas openly, then the IDF and Israeli government must have already known about them since their construction.

Now the IDF is claiming to have discovered it.

Did the IDF simply not notice the large scale construction of tunnels?
#15309471
@ingliz good to know, so why have double standards when it comes adjudicating rape?

Again, we have gotten to the point where a former hostage is publicly saying she was raped.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If the tunnels were built by Hamas openly, then the IDF and Israeli government must have already known about them since their construction.

Now the IDF is claiming to have discovered it.

Did the IDF simply not notice the large scale construction of tunnels?


Israel has claimed Hamas was building tunnels since over a decade ago. Some were destroyed in the 2014 war, too, and likely rebuilt after.

Israel also developed measures to detect tunnel building going from Gaza into its own territory and indeed Israeli civilians living in the border area denounced hearing "construction noises" at the time.

But that is one thing, another is to actually locate those tunnels, figure out how long they are, where they lead to and their purpose, go inside them and then destroy them.
#15309477
A good discussion here with Norman Finkelstein and Chris Hedges. Zionists cut out the live stream because the truth hurts them, but this is the recorded version:


One of six fronts the Israelis are fighting on (and losing on).


wat0n wrote:Fact is, we have a hostage (Amit Soussana) saying publicly she was raped. What do the likes of @skinster do? Demand footage.

You should redirect her to seek help. Wanting (indeed, demanding) to watch footage of rape is fucked up as it is.

OTOH, weren't you justifying rape as well? Are you sure everything is going well in Malta, @ingliz?


Again with the blatant lies. :lol: I asked you to quote where I said I demand footage or whatever other nonsense you repeatedly claim and you aren't able to do that because you're as usual, full of shit in your unsubtle defence of genocide, because that is what this obsession with rape really is.

Every single report of "Hamas rape" following October 7 has been debunked. Even Israeli police have said there have been no testimonies, no evidence, no witnesses, nothing.

Since then, we have had a few claims made that have also been thoroughly debunked. And every single time the stories have been debunked, a new story comes along. Which then gets debunked, either by the media that reported it, family members of those claims are made about, by Israeli police or on Israeli media. Which I have shared on this thread. That you choose to ignore this doesn't change the reality of the situation or reality in general, which I know is something Zionists have a daily struggle with.

Even with the debunked stories, your ilk just walk away from them and start focusing on a new story that then gets debunked, as though we don't notice you just walked away from another pile of bullshit. And then you do it again and expect us to fall for these Zionist That Cried Rape stories.

Amit said nothing about about being raped when she was at press conference earlier in the year. This new claim of hers came out immediately after the reports of the Palestinian woman who was gang-raped in Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza by IDF terrorists - who forced her husband and children to watch or they would be killed - and then they shot the woman they gang-raped in both her legs and she bled to death. And when I mentioned this report a few times in this thread so far, you just scuttle past it and then try to act like you give a shit about rape. And then I posted reports of Israelis in hotels from the north raping other Israelis and you scuttle past that too. And then you act like I believe you give a shit about rape? You don't, you give a shit about defending that genocidal state and it is obvious to anyone with a room temperature IQ.

These are the people who made claims about rape and beheaded babies and they've been debunked for being massive liars. And you are just one of them, likely paid to spend all your time here defending genocide, and I am not here for it.


Saeko wrote:Pretty much the only report on Oct 7th I've ever seen that doesn't reek of bullshit.


Yes, it's very good. There was the Israeli film that they wouldn't allow the public to see and only allowed select journalists, which had little success. One of those journalists, that twat Owen Jones, said the claims the Israeli government made about the film didn't match up to the footage. Isn't it odd that Israel would seek to restrict this so-called evidence of mass rape etc.?

Another thing I find wild is that they have tons of footage from the go-pro cameras of killed Palestinian resistance fighters on October 7 and Israelis couldn't find a single image of rape happening amongst it, despite the RAPE RAPE RAPE stories that came out following October 7.

And then there is the leaked Frank Luntz report that has told Zionists to keep going on about rape as a way to detract from the genocide. And then you have people like wat0n that think some of us were born yesterday. :lol:
#15309479
skinster wrote:Again with the blatant lies. :lol: I asked you to quote where I said I demand footage or whatever other nonsense you repeatedly claim and you aren't able to do that because you're as usual, full of shit in your unsubtle defence of genocide, because that is what this obsession with rape really is.


It is quite clear what you demand here:

skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1772726638540620286

There is no footage of it. Every rape accusation by the Israelis has been debunked. And this new one from today will be too, because I suspect if it were true, we would've heard about it.

The reason why I'm quick to dismiss these claims is because 1) Zionists lie as they breathe 2) we've seen reports of Israeli propagandists instructing people like you to keep going on about rape in an attempt to distract from the genocide 3) the New York Times reports have all been debunked including by family of one of these "rape" victims.


In fact, you demand it too in this very post:

skinster wrote:Another thing I find wild is that they have tons of footage from the go-pro cameras of killed Palestinian resistance fighters on October 7 and Israelis couldn't find a single image of rape happening amongst it, despite the RAPE RAPE RAPE stories that came out following October 7.


Then you were complaining about how no testimonies, witnesses, etc yet when both witnesses allege rape took place and also when a former hostage claims she was raped, you reject it.

Typical ghoulish, scummy behavior we can expect from tankies.
#15309482
If Hamas were to have built that tunnel, there would be no issue of locating it or figuring out how long they are, where they lead to and their purpose, et cetera.

This would already be known with the simplest surveillance possible.
#15309485
Pants-of-dog wrote:If Hamas were to have built that tunnel, there would be no issue of locating it or figuring out how long they are, where they lead to and their purpose, et cetera.

This would already be known with the simplest surveillance possible.


How so?

It depends on where the tunnel begins and how deep it is.

And you have still not addressed, beyond simply denying:

1) The Qassam Brigades admitting openly to have a battalion in Nuseirat

2) The fact that a former hostage said she was taken to Nuseirat
#15309491
Nobody is trying to distract from the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It is part of the inherent brutality of urban war like this one.

But you are indeed quite fixated on wanting to watch rape footage.
#15309495
It has already been explained that this type of construction is almost impossible to conceal. Thus, the IDF would have known things like where the tunnel begins and how deep it is at the time of construction.

Also, this does not work as an excuse for the Nuseirat bombings in October since this “discovery” occurred several months afterwards.
#15309499
Pants-of-dog wrote:It has already been explained that this type of construction is almost impossible to conceal. Thus, the IDF would have known things like where the tunnel begins and how deep it is at the time of construction.


Prove that Israel knew where the tunnel begins at the time of construction. I don't see why would that be the case.

"Trust me bro" is not proof.

Also, this does not mean the tunnel was somehow not used by Hamas.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Also, this does not work as an excuse for the Nuseirat bombings in October since this “discovery” occurred several months afterwards.


Sure, the fact that the Qassam Brigades operate and have a permanent battalion there does.

But you still deny it this despite:

1) The Qassam Brigades saying so and eulogizing a battalion commander

2) A former hostage saying she was taken there

3) Finding a tunnel used by Hamas
#15309504
The claim is a conditional statement.

This is one that goes “If x, then y”.

Therefore, the claim is “If Hamas built it, then the IDF would have known about it”.

If the IDF did not know about it, as you claim, then Hamas did not build it.

There is no evidence that Hamas used that runnel ever for any reason.

The Qassam Brigade do not say they have a battalion there, That is based on a misreading of a vague allusion in a Google translation of a eulogy.
#15309510
Yes, and that conditional statement is not necessarily true.

It is not necessarily true that the IDF would have known Hamas was building a tunnel there, specifically.

I am still waiting for you to address:

1) The Qassam Brigades admitting that it has a force in Nuseirat and eulogized a battalion commander, you have yet to prove this was a misreading

2) A former hostage saying she was taken to Nuseirat, which implies Hamas presence. And since this operation requires planning, such presence was long-standing and not recent (else, where exactly should the hostages be moved to and how can it be done without being caught?)

3) The finding of a tunnel in Nuseirat that was used by Hamas to travel between northern and southern Gaza
#15309513
Find Someone Who Loves You Like Israel Loves Attacking Palestinian Hospitals
Israel’s constant fixation on attacking healthcare facilities makes no sense from a military strategic point of view, but it makes plenty of sense from a genocidal point of view.

The World Health Organization has issued a statement saying that it has recorded 410 Israeli attacks on Gazan healthcare services since October 7, resulting in 685 fatalities, 902 injuries, and damage to 99 healthcare facilities.

As of this writing there is a still-ongoing IDF assault on Al-Shifa Hospital, which according to Israel has resulted in scores of Palestinian deaths and the capture of hundreds of prisoners. This is the fourth time Israel has attacked this particular hospital, which happens to be the largest hospital in Gaza.

Survivors of the assault have told Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor that they repeatedly witnessed groups of prisoners being walked into the hospital morgue by IDF troops, then heard the sound of gunfire, then saw the IDF troops returning without the prisoners. Which is probably exactly what it would look and sound like if the IDF was conducting mass summary executions at Al-Shifa Hospital.



In an article for The Washington Post titled “How Biden became embroiled in a Gaza conflict with no end in sight” (the western press have an extensive track record of constantly framing US military aggressions as passive entanglements that the global superpower keeps innocently stumbling and bumbling its way into by accident), Yasmeen Abutaleb and John Hudson report that according to their sources the Biden White House misrepresented the intelligence whose claims were used to justify the first Al-Shifa raid back in November.

Senator Chris Van Hollen, a Democrat, told The Washington Post that there was a marked discrepancy between what White House officials were saying publicly about Al-Shifa and what the intelligence they’d seen actually said:

“Van Hollen, who had received a classified briefing about the U.S. intelligence on al-Shifa, said there were ‘important and subtle differences’ between what Biden officials were saying publicly and what the intelligence actually showed. ‘I did find there to be some disconnect between the administration’s public statements and the classified findings,’ the senator said.”

In December, when it was all long over, The Washington Post published a report which found that “the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center.” It was obvious that Israel was lying about Al-Shifa at the time back in November, with psyops like a nonexistent Hamas calendar being “discovered” in the hospital and a fake video purporting to show an Al-Shifa nurse saying the hospital was overrun with Hamas fighters being debunked as fast as they could be produced.



The evidence for the justification of this raid doesn’t appear to be any more robust, with the IDF publishing highly dubious footage of what it claims are “Hamas terrorist funds found inside Shifa Hospital”, complete with notes accompanying the money thanking Hamas by name for their “good work”.

Yeah okay sure, people have been somehow sending “Dear Hamas” letters to the militant group with wads of cash enclosed, and Hamas has been keeping both the cash and the letters in Al-Shifa Hospital, where they were kind enough to leave it for the incoming IDF raid to discover. Sounds legit. Definitely not the sort of thing Israel has been caught lying about many times before.

In an article titled “US and UK doctors in Washington to warn of IDF’s ‘appalling atrocities’ in Gaza”, The Guardian’s Chris McGreal writes the following:

Professor Nick Maynard, the former director for cancer services at Oxford University who worked at the al-Aqsa hospital in central Gaza at the beginning of the year, accused the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) of “appalling atrocities”.

“The IDF are systematically targeting healthcare facilities, healthcare personnel and really dismantling the whole healthcare system,” he said.

“It’s not just about targeting the buildings, it’s about systematically destroying the infrastructure of the hospitals. Destroying the oxygen tanks at the al-Shifa hospital, deliberately destroying the CT scanners and making it much more difficult to rebuild that infrastructure. If it was just targeting Hamas militants, why are they deliberately destroying the infrastructure of these institutions?”

The UN says none of Gaza’s 36 hospitals is fully functional. A dozen are partially working and the others are destroyed. On Monday, the Israeli military again raided the al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. Medical staff said the IDF killed and arrested Palestinians inside the hospital.


Israel’s constant fixation on attacking healthcare facilities makes no sense from a military strategic point of view, but it makes plenty of sense from a genocidal point of view. Hospitals are where people are brought to save their lives after they’ve been badly injured or have become acutely malnourished or sick, and they’re where civilians would normally take shelter when nowhere else is safe.

All the way back in December we were already seeing reports that Gaza’s healthcare system has been effectively destroyed by the nonstop attacks on healthcare facilities and the siege warfare cutting the enclave off from much-needed medical supplies. Now we are seeing Israel repeatedly re-attacking those same facilities, ensuring that they remain non-functioning despite all the most resilient efforts of the people of Gaza to stay alive.

This is exactly what it looks like. The narrative managers of Israel and the west will try to spin and distort the information you’re seeing right in front of your face to try and make you believe you’re seeing something other than what you’re seeing, but the truth really couldn’t be more self-evident. This is a genocide. If it wasn’t, Israel wouldn’t be methodically destroying hospitals while bombing and starving the population they’ve been oppressing for generations.
https://caitlinjohnstone.com.au/2024/03 ... hospitals/






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