Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 181 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15311952
RealPolitic wrote:@Pants-of-dog



That's not exactly accurate what you stated here. Its disingenuous to put people into perfect little boxes. But I guess I have to clarify since some people insist on categorizing others in perfect little white or black boxes instead of recognizing other humans as something more complex than that.

I was discussing how Hamas perceives its own interests based on what they have stated and how they have acted. I was not discussing what I think somebody else's interests are given they might not agree with me. Its better to see the perspectives of those directly involved to understand why they act the way they act and how they perceive their own interests.

Hamas has written in their charter that their objective is to completely destroy all of Israel to get all their land back that was stolen from them by Jewish settlers. That being said, I think on some level, Hamas recognizes that is not a realistic goal and is not achievable even though they might not publicly admit it. So, I think, on some level, they understand, the best they can hope for is a two state solution.


Are you then saying that Hamas acted on October 7 because Hamas leaders thought that this attack would lead to more international support for a two state solution?
#15311954
@Pants-of-dog

Pants-of-dog wrote:Are you then saying that Hamas acted on October 7 because Hamas leaders thought that this attack would lead to more international support for a two state solution?


If you read what I wrote previously, I stated that I think Hamas carried out the attack on Israel because they did not want their cause of having their own homeland abandoned and forgotten about by the rest of the world. They felt, if they did not carry out such an attack and scuttle attempts for Israel and Saudi Arabia to make peace, their cause would be effectively abandoned and they would eventually lose all their land and would never even have a chance at having their own homeland. This attack also serves Iran's interest too.
#15311965
RealPolitic wrote:Hamas has written in their charter that their objective is to completely destroy all of Israel to get all their land back that was stolen from them by Jewish settlers. That being said, I think on some level, Hamas recognizes that is not a realistic goal and is not achievable even though they might not publicly admit it. So, I think, on some level, they understand, the best they can hope for is a two state solution.

No its not Hamas, that are being unrealistic. Its not Netanyahu that is being unrealistic. No its the Two Stater-ers, the so called International Community that is being totally unrealistic or at least pretending to be.

People seem to forget that the mandate was already partitioned into Transjordan and Palestine. Could Palestine have been partitioned a second time. Well yes in principle, but such a partition would have required massive ethnic cleansing of both Jews and Arabs. But the actual partition plan was totally phony. It was not designed to create a partition into two states but aid the Zionists in grabbing as much land as possible.

Of course the Zionists whined about it. The Zionists have turned ingratitude into an art form. The Zionist never says thank you for helping us, thank you for being massively biased in out favour. No the Zionist complains that you didn't give him more, Help the Zionist if you want, just don't expect gratitude, expects accusations of antisemitism, because you weren't even more biased towards him than you were.

If you were serious about partitioning Palestine then you would have to split it north south. All this talk about two states is total and utter bullshit. Hamas are realistic, and they are not alone in this. Go and speak to just about any far hard left organsiation in the world and they'll all tell you what I'm telling you, there can be no Palestinian state without wiping the Jewish state off the map. As I've said before, what ever the faults of the Jews, a general lack of
intelligence is not one of them. So why do the religious nutters end up running the show, why has Israel been dragged along by religious extremists for the last half century or more? Because the religious nutters are actually the realists here.
#15312203
Saeko wrote:https://twitter.com/hermit_hwarang/status/1779130216977154217


But it is their "resistance" that got them in to this mess on the 7th of October, no? So are we in a Ouroboros situation here?
#15312324
About the hopes for a two-state solution, wat0n wrote:That was already offered to Netanyahu but he said no. Hence why Netanyahu needs to go just like Hamas.


Yes, wouldn't it be nice of Palestine was a foreign state, like Syria and Lebanon are. Then the Palestinians will finally be safe from Jewish bombs and land-theft.

Oh wait...

***

RealPolitic wrote:I am not buying the notion that Iran isn't behind many of the attacks by Hezbollah or Hamas...

Do you find it unlikely that the Palestinians and Lebanese... would be fighting Israel to protect themselves from it? In your mind, could it only be some kind of International Evil Entity that would ever have major differences with the Euro-Jewish aircraft carrier that's been bombing all its Arab neighbors for 70 years?

***
#15312342
QatzelOk wrote:Yes, wouldn't it be nice of Palestine was a foreign state, like Syria and Lebanon are. Then the Palestinians will finally be safe from Jewish bombs and land-theft.

Oh wait...

***


Wouldn't it be nice if Palestine was a state friendly to Israel like Egypt and Jordan are?
#15312490
wat0n wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Palestine was a state friendly to Israel like Egypt and Jordan are?

Egypt is a bankrupt state whose "leader" is another Zelensky-style product of a cout d'état. How long before this act of interference in another country's politics turns into a civil war?

And it was very interesting to see Jordan "defend" Israel agaisnt Iran's drone army.... as Israel is attempting to genocide or ethnic cleanse the refugee camps full of dislocated Palestinian refugees from Isreali-Occupied Territories.

I realize that I could never have written the paragraphe above if I worked for the New York Times.

The Intercept wrote:
...THE NEW YORK TIMES instructed journalists covering Israel’s war on the Gaza Strip to restrict the use of the terms “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and to “avoid” using the phrase “occupied territory” when describing Palestinian land, according to a copy of an internal memo obtained by The Intercept.

The memo also instructs reporters not to use the word Palestine “except in very rare cases” and to steer clear of the term “refugee camps” to describe areas of Gaza historically settled by displaced Palestinians expelled from other parts of Palestine during previous Israeli–Arab wars. The areas are recognized by the United Nations as refugee camps and house hundreds of thousands of registered refugees...

***
#15312491
QatzelOk wrote:Egypt is a bankrupt state whose "leader" is another Zilensky-style product of a cout d'état. How long before this act of interference in another country's politics turns into a civil war?

And it was very interesting to see Jordan "defend" Israel agaisnt Iran's drone army.... as Israel is attempting to genocide or ethnic cleanse the refugee camps full of dislocated Palestinian refugees from Isreali-Occupied Territories.

I realize that I could never have written the paragraphe above if I worked for the New York Times.


***


Or maybe both Egypt and Jordan don't believe the Western pro-Palestine bullshit, with Jordan in particular not wanting to allow Iran destabilize it.

The Intercept is bullshit and is thankfully going down the drain.

Semafor wrote:The Intercept, the left-wing U.S. newsroom that’s been a thorn in Joe Biden’s side and a hub for pro-Palestinian coverage, is nearly out of money and facing its own bitter civil war, with multiple feuding factions battling for power and two star journalists trying to take control.

At the heart of the crisis is a nonprofit whose founding donor, Pierre Omidyar, decided in late 2022 to end his support for the organization. Now spun off from Omidyar’s First Look Media, The Intercept is losing roughly $300,000 a month, is on track to have a balance of less than a million dollars by November — and could be completely out of cash by May 2025, according to data shared internally in March.


:lol:
#15312519
Pants-of-dog wrote:Another mass grave has been found on the grounds of a hospital in Palestine.

But if everything is Hamas' fault, Pod, then this is just more crimes for Israel to punish the group (the world?) for.

At least that's the vibe I get from the Semafors of this world and their well-paid enablers like wat0n.

***
#15312654
Some Zionists are finally getting the memo:

Haaretz wrote:Saying What Can't Be Said: Israel Has Been Defeated – a Total Defeat
The war's aims won't be achieved, the hostages won't be returned through military pressure, security won't be restored and Israel's international ostracism won't end

We've lost. Truth must be told. The inability to admit it encapsulates everything you need to know about Israel's individual and mass psychology. There's a clear, sharp, predictable reality that we should begin to fathom, to process, to understand and to draw conclusions from for the future. It's no fun to admit that we've lost, so we lie to ourselves.

Some of us maliciously lie. Others innocently. It would be better to find solace in some airy carb with a total-victory crust. But it might just be a bagel. When the solace ends, the hole remains. There's no way around it. The good guys don't always win.

My favorite book is "Love in the Time of Cholera." It feels good all over to think that even after 51 years, nine months and four days, Florentino Ariza will consummate his love with Fermina Daza. Gabriel García Márquez was a fabulous writer, but letters don't always reach their destination. Sometimes beautiful love is cut short, painful and bleeding until death arrives. That's life. Sometimes there's a good ending, but quite often there isn't. Wars are like that, too.

After half a year, we could have been in a totally different place, but we're being held hostage by the worst leadership in the country's history – and a decent contender for the title of worst leadership anywhere, ever. Every military undertaking is supposed to have a diplomatic exit – the military action should lead to a better diplomatic reality. Israel has no diplomatic exit.

It has a scoundrel for a leader, someone with no capacity for leadership or decision-making, a person who loses his sense of good judgment over a free cigar. Yet the electorate put its faith in the current prime minister to the tune of 32 Knesset seats.

Theoretically, we could have been in a better place. The shock of the outbreak of the war could have been a starting point for a swift, powerful, aggressive, eminently justified campaign to quickly root out Hamas wherever that was possible. It could have then been replaced by a coalition of countries with money and good intentions to carry out reconstruction, with global and Arab backing, along with the Palestinian Authority. We could have created a viable alternative to Hamas in Gaza. After six months, there already might have been the first signs of independent government there. Every day and every minute, better decisions could have been made. But that's whom we elected – a suit with a person attached.

We can't say it, but we've lost. People have an inclination to believe in the best and be optimistic, hoping that tomorrow will be okay, that we are in a process that in the end will be more successful. That's the most fundamental failure of human thought: the notion that the direction we are taking is a good one, that we just need to get there already – that in just a little more time, with a little more effort, the hostages will be returned, Hamas will surrender and Yahya Sinwar will be killed. After all, we're the good guys, and good will triumph.

It's the same mentality that leads to the notion that "the Iranian regime will soon implode" and other notions that have more to do with Hollywood scripts than life itself. They're not the truth and it relates to something that's uncomfortable. After all, it's uncomfortable telling the public the truth.

My conclusion from October 7 as a journalist is that what's "uncomfortable" is the most dangerous thing for our security and our future here, that being addicted to feeling good is itself what's dangerous. We need to tell the truth, even when it is uncomfortable, even when it hurts, even if some people deplore it, even if it lowers morale.

We need to stand up to the Bibi-ist propaganda machines even if attack dogs are sniffing at our crotch. If on October 1, someone had said that the chief of military intelligence was incompetent, that military intelligence could plan successful operations but was incapable of providing a warning about a coming war, that the Shin Bet was dozing and that we were about to get the whooping of our lives, such a person would have been perceived as crazy, defeatist and out of touch. Certain politicians would have called for such a person to be charged with spreading false news. There were so many signs that the military was in bad shape, but we wouldn't see them – because we believe things are all right.

It's unpleasant to say, but we may not be able to safety return to Israel's northern border, to what had been before. Hezbollah has changed that equation, to its own benefit. That's the situation.

We constantly tell ourselves about an imaginary deadline – April, May, September 1 – and if Hezbollah keeps it up until then, we'll give it a thorough shellacking. The deadline keeps being pushed back. The border region remains empty. The deceit continues. There now seems to be a high probability that for years, anyone driving along the border will be a target. Tel Hai will fall again.

And that's true on every front: Not all hostages will return, either alive or dead. The whereabouts of some are lost, and their fate will remain unknown. They'll be like the downed airforce navigator Ron Arad. Their relatives will go around sick with worry, fear and apprehension. From time to time, we'll launch balloons in their memory.

No cabinet minister will restore our sense of personal security. Every Iranian threat will make us tremble. Our international standing was dealt a beating. Our leadership's weakness was revealed to the outside. For years we managed to fool them into thinking we were a strong country, a wise people and a powerful army. In truth, we're a shtetl with an air force, and that's on the condition that its awakened in time.

In part it's the military's sacred place in Israel that makes it so hard to admit defeat. You can't say anything bad about the military. Only when it comes to October 7 are you specifically allowed to talk about a disgrace. Since then, we've been lions.

Granted that many combat soldiers are indeed lions. They got up and left home. They fought, demonstrated skill as soldiers and chalked up impressive tactical achievements. Our defeat doesn't mean they're not good soldiers, that they didn't make an effort, that they didn't deliver or risk their lives, that they weren't prepared to do whatever was required. It means that the combination of military capabilities and the politicians' conduct produced an unfavorable outcome. The spin doctors keep jumping up yelling that "you're hurting soldiers' morale." In truth, that's easy to put across because who wants to come out in opposition to the soldiers?

So we keep fooling ourselves.

Along with natural psychology, there are the machines plying lies and deceit. There's a political camp the very survival of which pretty much depends on a "victory." That camp has long since lost all touch with truth and reality. We've gotten to know its leader, that human Pinocchio. For months, he's been talking of "total victory" and of being "a step away from victory." And for a couple of months, he's been saying that we're going to enter Rafah "right away," tomorrow, tomorrow, here I go. I would believe TV reality figure Ohad Buzaglo telling me I'm his one true love before I would believe one word from Netanyahu.

The system is to procrastinate for as long as possible, and in the meantime – lie. The army of spokespeople is hollering. And in recent months, right-wing Channel 14 has been giving rise to a new mouthpiece, a "shababnik," as the ultra-Orthodox community calls people on the community's margins, by the name of Motty Castel. If Yinon Magal and Erel Segal are submissive slaves to the father-king, Castel is a serf to the king's son Yair Netanyahu. I've seen freer people at the Dungeon club.

This week Castel broke through Channel 14 screens to promise the people that victory is at hand: "I'm being contacted by a lot of citizens [who ask]: 'Have we given up on Rafah?' I'm saying with all due responsibility that we will enter Rafah. The prime minister has said too many times himself that we will enter Rafah and he can't forgo entering Rafah. Furthermore, he also said in one interview that we're going to have to do it on our own, contrary to the position of the United States. We will do it. You can calm down. It will happen."

Rafah is the newest bluff that the mouthpieces are plying to fool us and make us think that victory is just moments away. By the time they enter Rafah, the actual event will have lost its significance. There may be an incursion, perhaps a tiny one, sometime – say in May. After that, they'll peddle the next lie, that all we have to do is ________ (fill in the blank), and victory will be on its way. The reality is that the war's aims will not be achieved. Hamas will not be eradicated. The hostages will not be returned through military pressure. Security will not be reestablished.

The more the mouthpieces shout that "we're winning," the clearer it is that we're losing. Lying is their craft. We need to get used to that. Life is less secure than before October 7. The beating we took will sting for years to come. The international ostracism won't go away. And, of course, the dead won't be coming back. Nor will many of the hostages.

For some of us, life will get back on track, with the petrifying fear of an imminent repeat. And for some of us, life won't get back on track. Those people will walk among us like the living dead. That's what we voted for. That's how it is. We need to get used to the sad reality in our homeland.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... ef6ba10000




Good interview here by two self-hating Jews, as Zionist like to call them..


Potemkin wrote:Nations are founded through ethnic cleansing, @late. Why should Israel be an exception?


Because the natives, in their millions, still live, and the Israelis deny them basic human/civil rights, force them under a five decades long savage military occupation or into an almost two decades-long concentration camp, now death camp.

Normal people think these things are bad, Potemkin. It's why apartheid ended in South Africa too..

JohnRawls wrote:Israel is a democracy.


Democracy is when you deny rights or privilege them based on a person's religion. :lol:

wat0n wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if Palestine was a state friendly to Israel like Egypt and Jordan are?


The masses in this countries are protesting against their bought governments and the future does not look bright for them.

Jordanians have been holding nightly protests at the Zionist embassy in Amman for the last three weeks, despite the repression and arrests of many protesters. This looks to be only getting bigger, especially given their dictator's support of the Zionists during the Iranian response last weekend..

Jordanians at the Zionist embassy today:


Pants-of-dog wrote:At this point, it seems like Saudi Arabia is considered just another western country.


You spelt colony wrong. The Saudis have basically said there will be no normalisation with the Zionist entity unless it commits to the fantasy of a two-state solution. The Israelis have stated for decades that Palestinians will never have sovereignty over their own land so it'll be interesting what happens.

The Saudi traitors are currently playing both sides. Remaining allies with the West while moving closer to BRICS and multipolarity. With the increasing decline of the U.S. empire, I think the Saudis will opt for the future (China/Russia/Iran) than the past (West).

wat0n wrote:It is interesting to see skinster celebrate an Iranian propaganda nonsense that has little grounding in Arab tradition :lol:


Al-Quds day was celebrated in pretty much EVERY Muslim and Arab country this year. Let me know if you would like to see images of every single one because I can bring them up, easy because I shared them on my social media.

Western countries had protests in favour of it too. I went to the one in London. :excited:
#15312655
Al Quds day was literally invented by the Ayatollahs in 1979 :lol:

In the meantime, Jordan helped stop Iran's attack on Israel. There seem to be no major consequences of doing so for the monarchy.
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