South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 73 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#15318793
Sherlock Holmes wrote:You regularly make statements like "are you saying" and "so what you're saying is" and so on, if you can't understand what I write just say so and I'll happily explain it to you. This paraphrasing is fallacious, you are using it to present weak strawman arguments, restating what I write in another form and then attacking that as if you are attacking what I said.

You can't debate intelligently, can't attack or challenge what I actually write and instead pretending I wrote something else altogether and attacking that, it makes you look foolish and by implication makes your defense of Israel, Zionism and all the other xenophobic nonsense look like what it is - retrograde Nazism.


Oh so you aren't?

I mean, I was assuming they reviewed what would be a key piece of evidence in this case.

But you're saying we shouldn't.

Then maybe we should assume the exact opposite, granting no charity at all to them.
#15318845
wat0n wrote:Oh so you aren't?

I mean, I was assuming they reviewed what would be a key piece of evidence in this case.

But you're saying we shouldn't.

Then maybe we should assume the exact opposite, granting no charity at all to them.


Assume all you want, the fact is this is more blatant lies, you're at it again claiming "you're saying we shouldn't" but none of my posts contain that sentiment, but I understand it's easier to lie when you don't quote me literally, paraphrasing is your modus operandi and every neutral visitor to this site who might read these threads can see for themselves that you are an apologist for racism and racial superiority as well as an incompetent debater.

The following are to all intents and purposes facts:

1. You nor I have any idea what evidence the expert panel has reviewed
2. You nor I have any idea the volume of evidence the expert panel has reviewed
3. You are not in a position to say what is "key" to the panel of experts
4. Whatever evidence they have seen they regard it as sufficient to establish due cause.
5. The panel of experts are unlikely to seek a prosecution unless they regard the evidence as sufficient to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
6. Every member of the expert panel is an acknowledged expert in jurisprudence.

If you disagree with any of these then just say so and explain why you disagree.

I don't think you really appreciate the seriousness of this, these are very very serious allegations and require a considerable weight of evidence. This is a real court with real powers and with real jurisdiction. This is not a game they are playing, these men are in very deep trouble and the crimes being investigated are perhaps the most serious crimes any person can commit.
#15318847
Sherlock Holmes wrote:Assume all you want, the fact is this is more blatant lies, you're at it again claiming "you're saying we shouldn't" but none of my posts contain that sentiment, but I understand it's easier to lie when you don't quote me literally, paraphrasing is your modus operandi and every neutral visitor to this site who might read these threads can see for themselves that you are an apologist for racism and racial superiority as well as an incompetent debater.

The following are to all intents and purposes facts:

1. You nor I have any idea what evidence the expert panel has reviewed
2. You nor I have any idea the volume of evidence the expert panel has reviewed
3. You are not in a position to say what is "key" to the panel of experts
4. Whatever evidence they have seen they regard it as sufficient to establish due cause.
5. The panel of experts are unlikely to seek a prosecution unless they regard the evidence as sufficient to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
6. Every member of the expert panel is an acknowledged expert in jurisprudence.

If you disagree with any of these then just say so and explain why you disagree.

I don't think you really appreciate the seriousness of this, these are very very serious allegations and require a considerable weight of evidence. This is a real court with real powers and with real jurisdiction. This is not a game they are playing, these men are in very deep trouble and the crimes being investigated are perhaps the most serious crimes any person can commit.


This is a serious allegation which requires a considerable weight of evidence we don't yet know about.

This requires showing that 1) there's famine in Gaza, 2) is due to Israeli policy, 3) it's part of an Israeli plan. Much of this evidence should already be public, since you can't hide 1) and 2) easily yet now we see the FRC saying it is impossible to know if there's even an ongoing famine in Gaza...
#15318849
wat0n wrote:This is a serious allegation which requires a considerable weight of evidence we don't yet know about.

This requires showing that 1) there's famine in Gaza, 2) is due to Israeli policy, 3) it's part of an Israeli plan. Much of this evidence should already be public, since you can't hide 1) and 2) easily yet now we see the FRC saying it is impossible to know if there's even an ongoing famine in Gaza...


One thing is clear, the panel of experts believe that the evidence, expert testimony, verified video, photographs, eye witness accounts, public statements and so on, is sufficient to demonstrate guilt else they would never have sought arrest warrants.

You and I do not know how much evidence they have, which experts they've interviewed or what eye witness testimony they have. You act is if you know, but you don't, you act as if its obvious there's not enough evidence but it isn't.

From the report:

As the Prosecutor has kept confidential the evidence underlying the article 58 applications at this stage, this Report will not reference specific pieces of evidence that the Panel has reviewed, or name specific witnesses.

and
Finally, the Panel welcomes the Prosecutor’s statement that the investigation of crimes committed in Israel and Palestine is ongoing and that applications are likely to be made in relation to additional charges and/or suspects in the near future. The Panel agrees.


They are continually investigating, acquiring evidence and testimony and could even bring additional charges.

If the warrants are approved and issued, how would you react? would you knee-jerk defend these people or retain an open mind and agree that these men should be arrested at the earliest opportunity and the trial should proceed and a decision made based on the facts and evidence?

If they were found guilty and incarcerated would you accept that or insist it was a conspiracy, an example of antisemitism?
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on 20 Jun 2024 17:49, edited 1 time in total.
#15318851
wat0n wrote:@Sherlock Holmes I see no reason to just "trust the experts" since we're dealing with criminal law. I want to see their evidence.

The same holds for Hamas, the CCTV footage the ICC's prosecutor mentions should be made public if it's not already.


But you're willing to trust the IDF claims about rape and baby beheadings. I'm sure you'll see the evidence in due course not that it would affect your opinion.
#15318935
wat0n wrote:And now on June 4, the FRC said the IPC was wrong to make that assessment.


No. not according to your evidence.

Your evidence shows that there is not enough information either way.

You didn't read the report, did you? The IPC has already made such assessments with incomplete information before. The difference is that Gaza's pre-war conditions are not the same as those of Somalia or South Sudan.


The precious findings were not extrapolated from this kind of data as far as Ic an tell.

There is no reason to assume that 5ere is no famine at this point. The best the IDF and Israeli government an argue is that the FRC is not able to get enough information to make a declaration.

This is possibly due to interference by the IDF and Israeli government.

Actually, this is what the report says about financial access:


Which does not contradict the very real possibility that food prices are out of reach for many residents of Gaza.

Also, the report says total caloric availability of imported food into Gaza is probably high enough to meet the residents' needs so whatever issues there are have more to do with distribution than anything else. Hardly evidence of genocidal intent.


Quote the relevant text.
#15318943
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. not according to your evidence.

Your evidence shows that there is not enough information either way.


Such lack of evidence is precisely why the FRC said the IPC was wrong in claiming famine. It is explicitly said so in the report, as I quoted, so maybe you misunderstood.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The precious findings were not extrapolated from this kind of data as far as Ic an tell.


They were, which is why the FRC saw the need to correct course.

Pants-of-dog"There is no reason to assume that 5ere is no famine at this point. The best the IDF and Israeli government an argue is that the FRC is not able to get enough information to make a declaration.

This is possibly due to interference by the IDF and Israeli government.[/quote]

Sounds like speculation, done blaming the Jews?

[quote="Pants-of-dog wrote:
Which does not contradict the very real possibility that food prices are out of reach for many residents of Gaza.


It does not prove it either, again, as assessed by the FRC.

Maybe you could provide evidence instead of speculating.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Quote the relevant text.


Already quoted.

Keep up with the thread.
#15318946
wat0n wrote:Such lack of evidence is precisely why the FRC said the IPC was wrong in claiming famine. It is explicitly said so in the report, as I quoted, so maybe you misunderstood.


So you are arguing that the lack of evidence either way shows that one way was right and the other was wrong?

That is literally nonsense.

They were, which is why the FRC saw the need to correct course.


Since yiu were unaware if the findings before I mentioned them fir the second time, it us unreasonable to believe that you have some insight into the methodology that has not been presented in this thread.

So quote the IPC methodology concerning the May press release.

Sounds like speculation, done blaming the Jews?


Again, South Africa is pursuing a case of genocide against Israel in the ICJ.

For the IDF and Israeli government to allow the FRC to cinduct a thorough investigation would allow the FRC to find the evidence required fro a guilty verdict.

It does not prove it either, again, as assessed by the FRC.

Maybe you could provide evidence instead of speculating.


Do you think it is incorrect to assume that food prices in a time of war and blocakade will be high and too expensive for many?

Already quoted.

Keep up with the thread.


Post a link to where you quoted it.
#15318948
Pants-of-dog wrote:So you are arguing that the lack of evidence either way shows that one way was right and the other was wrong?

That is literally nonsense.


So are you admitting there's not enough evidence to claim there is famine in Gaza?

If you want to qualify it with a "yet" I'm fine with that. It's hard to know what's going to happen in the future.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Since yiu were unaware if the findings before I mentioned them fir the second time, it us unreasonable to believe that you have some insight into the methodology that has not been presented in this thread.

So quote the IPC methodology concerning the May press release.


Are you going to acknowledge the FRC's assessment and take it seriously?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, South Africa is pursuing a case of genocide against Israel in the ICJ.

For the IDF and Israeli government to allow the FRC to cinduct a thorough investigation would allow the FRC to find the evidence required fro a guilty verdict.


It doesn't seem like this is under Israel's control.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Do you think it is incorrect to assume that food prices in a time of war and blocakade will be high and too expensive for many?


That doesn't mean most Gazans can't afford food, however.

But, anyway, there are also reports that food prices have gone down in Gaza. Interpret that as you desire.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Post a link to where you quoted it.


Go back in the thread.
#15319008
wat0n wrote:So are you admitting there's not enough evidence to claim there is famine in Gaza?

If you want to qualify it with a "yet" I'm fine with that. It's hard to know what's going to happen in the future.

Are you going to acknowledge the FRC's assessment and take it seriously?

It doesn't seem like this is under Israel's control.

That doesn't mean most Gazans can't afford food, however.

But, anyway, there are also reports that food prices have gone down in Gaza. Interpret that as you desire.

Go back in the thread.


There is more than one famine in Gaza right now.

The fact that the FRC is unable to get enough information to make a declaration does not change that. A famine can occur without any declaration.

And a declaration of famine requires the observation of several critieria, and almost all of 5ese criteria have been observed. The lack of declaration is due to one or two criteria not being observed.

And yes, access for the FRC is very much under IDF control, since the IDF can simply kill any investigator that goes where they are not supposed to do so.

Much like the IDF deliberately killed humanitarian aid workers on more than one occasion.
#15319011
Pants-of-dog wrote:There is more than one famine in Gaza right now.


Prove it.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The fact that the FRC is unable to get enough information to make a declaration does not change that. A famine can occur without any declaration.


Ok, then prove such famine is ongoing.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And a declaration of famine requires the observation of several critieria, and almost all of 5ese criteria have been observed. The lack of declaration is due to one or two criteria not being observed.


No, they have not. It's exactly what the FRC is saying.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And yes, access for the FRC is very much under IDF control, since the IDF can simply kill any investigator that goes where they are not supposed to do so.

Much like the IDF deliberately killed humanitarian aid workers on more than one occasion.


This is a weird definition of "control". By this logic, they are also under the control of Hamas since Hamas can kill any investigator who goes where they are not supposed to.

It seems you're desperate now that the FRC is explicitly saying there is no evidence of an ongoing famine in Gaza, not even north Gaza.
#15319015
wat0n wrote:Prove it.
Ok, then prove such famine is ongoing.
No, they have not. It's exactly what the FRC is saying.
This is a weird definition of "control". By this logic, they are also under the control of Hamas since Hamas can kill any investigator who goes where they are not supposed to.
It seems you're desperate now that the FRC is explicitly saying there is no evidence of an ongoing famine in Gaza, not even north Gaza.


Prove the Earth goes around the sun.

and yes, the declaration of famine requires the observation of several critieria:


    FAMINE WITH SOLID EVIDENCE
    An area is classified in Famine with solid evidence if there is clear and compelling evidence that the Famine thresholds for starvation, acute malnutrition and mortality have been reached.

    FAMINE WITH REASONABLE EVIDENCE
    An area is classified in Famine with reasonable evidence if there is clear evidence that two of the three thresholds for starvation, acute malnutrition and mortality have been reached, and analysts reasonably assess from the broader evidence that the threshold from the third outcome has likely been reached.


At this point, it seems like Gaza is under “famine with reasonable evidence”.

Here is yet more evidence:

https://reliefweb.int/attachments/b1e5a ... apshot.pdf
#15319028
^ yes, that is also an example (an obvious one) of shielding. Those soldiers need to be court martialed.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Prove the Earth goes around the sun.

and yes, the declaration of famine requires the observation of several critieria:



At this point, it seems like Gaza is under “famine with reasonable evidence”.

Here is yet more evidence:

https://reliefweb.int/attachments/b1e5a ... apshot.pdf


You gotta be desperate to use an assessment of the IPC the FRC considered to be lacking evidence.
  • 1
  • 71
  • 72
  • 73
  • 74
  • 75
  • 78

Bad shot confirmed. :lol: Shooting suspect wa[…]

The time will come when I am no longer able to car[…]

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

This is an excellent question, JohnRawls, and tot[…]

Or maybe people who engage in genocidal rhetoric, […]