South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 75 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15319133
JohnRawls wrote:@Pants-of-dog Hey you wanted more? Netanyahu+MoD of Israel and Hamas Leaders are now under arrest warrant for Crimes against Humanity by the Hague.

While I am not sure if Hamas leaders will surrender but I am pretty sure Netanyahu and Mod of Israel will have no choice but to surrender eventually due to the public backlash at some point of time. Too bad the animals and terrorists of Hamas won't even show up probably.

So something like this will happen:



i highly doubt anything will happen except that Netanyahu and certain other officials will simply not visit any country that will actually act on said warrant.

Much like Kissinger, who was wanted by many countries for crimes against humanity, was able to travel many places and even received a Nobel Peace Prize.
#15319147
wat0n wrote:Then answer it.


There's no need to repeat myself, you can always look at the earlier comments.

Too bad this attitude changed over time. And please now don't pretend the USSR was somehow a fringe example of leftist, indeed Marxist, praxis.

If it's about writings, Marx wasn't particularly positive on Jews.


No one claimed the USSR was a "fringe example of leftist praxis." So that's just a strawman. Seems you didn't read what I wrote there then. And Marx privately said objectionable things, no question about that. But to call his overall work antisemitic would be false. Some people have tried making such claims but they've long been discredited considering they're very obviously misrepresenting Marx's actual work.

Nonsense again.

Tell me, which mainstream Zionist organizations have (for instance) supported the pro-Israel rioters who attacked the UCLA encampment?


Tell me which ones have condemned the frequent racist comments by pro-regime and pro-Zionist counter-demonstrators like the ones you're referencing.
#15319152
KurtFF8 wrote:There's no need to repeat myself, you can always look at the earlier comments.


I don't care. Answer the question.

KurtFF8 wrote:No one claimed the USSR was a "fringe example of leftist praxis." So that's just a strawman. Seems you didn't read what I wrote there then. And Marx privately said objectionable things, no question about that. But to call his overall work antisemitic would be false. Some people have tried making such claims but they've long been discredited considering they're very obviously misrepresenting Marx's actual work.


Soviet praxis is still antisemitic. If we go to what happened before the Doctor's Plot... Well, we have Stalin trying to join the Axis.

As for Marx, his overall work was unrelated to Jews to begin with. Yet when he touched the issue he showed the antisemitism that was common in his time.

KurtFF8 wrote:Tell me which ones have condemned the frequent racist comments by pro-regime and pro-Zionist counter-demonstrators like the ones you're referencing.


Let's start with Hillel (major Jewish organization in its own right), specifically its UCLA chapter:

UCLA Hillel wrote:Late Tuesday night, most Jewish Bruins were startled by a violent confrontation at the encampment instigated by a group of non-students from off-campus. Our Hillel, and the Jewish students of UCLA, condemn all forms of violence, especially targeting students. CLICK HERE to read a message written by Hillel student leaders with the intent of distancing themselves from off-campus agitators.


Where are the similar condemnations of harassment of Jewish and Israeli students from pro-Palestine student organizations?
#15319158
wat0n wrote:I don't care. Answer the question.


It's been addressed already, no need to address the same question again.

Soviet praxis is still antisemitic


Not really, no. It's interesting that you would focus on one specific incident in the USSR (the Doctor's Plot) rather than other moments in that era (literally stopping the Holocaust, the promotion of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee prior to its repression, creation of a Jewish Oblast to provide an alternative to Zionism, etc.)

To reduce the USSR's praxis to antisemitism is an elementary misunderstanding of the USSR. That's not to say the USSR didn't also make indefensible errors that deserve criticism, what country doesn't? But your framing here just isn't accurate.

If we go to what happened before the Doctor's Plot... Well, we have Stalin trying to join the Axis.


The Doctor's Plot was unacceptable and of course shouldn't be defended, it was Stalin's known paranoia and of course part of a much broader repression against people around him.

The "Stalin trying to join the Axis" is a bit of a stretch. They had failed talks where the Germans were so upset about Soviet demands that they shortly after invaded the USSR. The idea that the USSR was seriously on the verge of joining the Axis is not something real historians take history. Even Cold Warrior historians rarely emphasize this.

As for Marx, his overall work was unrelated to Jews to begin with. Yet when he touched the issue he showed the antisemitism that was common in his time.


He certainly has some objectionable characteristics of Jews in some of his works and in his private correspondence. Some people try to say that his work itself is antisemitic which is false. The most common example of this "debate" is about his On the Jewish Question. Anti-Communists who try to discredit him try to claim it's an antisemitic work. But people who have actually read it understand that it's quite the opposite: it's about the liberation of all oppressed groups and the limits of "bourgeois democracy"

Where are the similar condemnations of harassment of Jewish and Israeli students from pro-Palestine student organizations?


There are of course many examples but here's one you will ignore

Article wrote:But many of the student groups behind the protests – including Jewish activists voicing their support for a cease-fire in Gaza – said that individuals making inflammatory remarks do not represent their groups or their values concerning the war in Gaza.

"At universities across the nation, our movement is united in valuing every human life," read a statement from Columbia University Apartheid Divest, one of the groups involved in the protests. "As a diverse group united by love and justice, we demand our voices be heard against the mass slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza."

Some Jewish students have long warned against conflating antisemitism with views critical of Israel's government and blanket portrayals of all protesters as antisemitic.

"It is unacceptable for school administration and politicians ... to co-opt our shared identity to silence Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, and Jewish students," said MIT Jews for Ceasefire, Harvard Jews for Palestine, and University of Pennsylvania Chavurah in a December 2023 statement to Congress. "These actions only serve to obfuscate real cases of antisemitism and put Jewish students at even greater risk."
#15319159
KurtFF8 wrote:It's been addressed already, no need to address the same question again.


You haven't.

KurtFF8 wrote:Not really, no. It's interesting that you would focus on one specific incident in the USSR (the Doctor's Plot) rather than other moments in that era (literally stopping the Holocaust, the promotion of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee prior to its repression, creation of a Jewish Oblast to provide an alternative to Zionism, etc.)

To reduce the USSR's praxis to antisemitism is an elementary misunderstanding of the USSR. That's not to say the USSR didn't also make indefensible errors that deserve criticism, what country doesn't? But your framing here just isn't accurate.


The Doctor's Plot was just the beginning.

Then there were the anti-Zionist trials of the 1950s, where Jewish communists were purged across the communist bloc, even anti-Zionist ones.

And from the 1960s onwards, the USSR had numerus clausus, denying many Soviet Jews access to higher education and some trades.

KurtFF8 wrote:The Doctor's Plot was unacceptable and of course shouldn't be defended, it was Stalin's known paranoia and of course part of a much broader repression against people around him.


Indeed, it was Stalin's paranoia but it did not stop there.

KurtFF8 wrote:The "Stalin trying to join the Axis" is a bit of a stretch. They had failed talks where the Germans were so upset about Soviet demands that they shortly after invaded the USSR. The idea that the USSR was seriously on the verge of joining the Axis is not something real historians take history. Even Cold Warrior historians rarely emphasize this.


Lol "real historians" as in pro-Soviet historians. The attempt was quite evident, and indeed was denied by Hitler.

Then you have the actions by the Comintern prior to Barbarossa. Including its US proxy, the American Peace Mobilization, to prevent the US from joining the war (the APM changed its tack as soon as Barbarossa began).

KurtFF8 wrote:He certainly has some objectionable characteristics of Jews in some of his works and in his private correspondence. Some people try to say that his work itself is antisemitic which is false. The most common example of this "debate" is about his On the Jewish Question. Anti-Communists who try to discredit him try to claim it's an antisemitic work. But people who have actually read it understand that it's quite the opposite: it's about the liberation of all oppressed groups and the limits of "bourgeois democracy"


Oh come on, the stereotyping there is quite evident.

KurtFF8 wrote:There are of course many examples but here's one you will ignore


Have they disavowed any specific incidents like Hillel did?
#15319182
KurtFF8 wrote:It's been addressed already, no need to address the same question again.



Not really, no. It's interesting that you would focus on one specific incident in the USSR (the Doctor's Plot) rather than other moments in that era (literally stopping the Holocaust, the promotion of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee prior to its repression, creation of a Jewish Oblast to provide an alternative to Zionism, etc.)

To reduce the USSR's praxis to antisemitism is an elementary misunderstanding of the USSR. That's not to say the USSR didn't also make indefensible errors that deserve criticism, what country doesn't? But your framing here just isn't accurate.



The Doctor's Plot was unacceptable and of course shouldn't be defended, it was Stalin's known paranoia and of course part of a much broader repression against people around him.

The "Stalin trying to join the Axis" is a bit of a stretch. They had failed talks where the Germans were so upset about Soviet demands that they shortly after invaded the USSR. The idea that the USSR was seriously on the verge of joining the Axis is not something real historians take history. Even Cold Warrior historians rarely emphasize this.



He certainly has some objectionable characteristics of Jews in some of his works and in his private correspondence. Some people try to say that his work itself is antisemitic which is false. The most common example of this "debate" is about his On the Jewish Question. Anti-Communists who try to discredit him try to claim it's an antisemitic work. But people who have actually read it understand that it's quite the opposite: it's about the liberation of all oppressed groups and the limits of "bourgeois democracy"



There are of course many examples but here's one you will ignore


SU was anti-semitic just less than the Tsarist Russia. Jews were barred from all top level education institutions up to the collapse of the USSR. Hence why so many ended up going for example to the university of Tartu since they were offlimits to most universities in Moscow or St Petersburg. Also Jews were sort of banned from high ranking communist party positions and some administrative rolls.

Is this anti-semitic? Well yeah sure, their social mobility and so on is limited and their ability to get education is severely limited. But it is not as bad as it was in Tsarist Russia or other places.

Basically the jews were persecuted in USSR on administrative level in their ability to achieve something in life in the USSR instead of actual physical prosecution.

I think that Stalin trials and prosecution were misleading in this regard. Sure his propaganda spoke of jewish-fascist-brown conspiracies and whatever but the majority of the problems persisted beyond Stalin. And focusing only on Stalin period is a mistake.
#15319438
KurtFF8 wrote:Why would the entire state of Israel not be culpable? Seems like yet another case of blatant double standards to me: Hamas militants do something objectionable and the entire organization and civilian infrastructure needs to be destroyed, Israeli soldiers do the same thing and only the individual soldiers should be held accountable?

I don't recall you calling on the individual militants who are said to have attacked civilians to be held accountable, @wat0n


It is exactly this in-your-face double-standard that reveals the racism and bad faith that is behind both the creation of the Israeli settler state, and its ongoing genocidal behavior against the local indigenous Arabs populations.

Imagine if Hamas was bombing Israel and killing thousands of Israeli babies in order to "stop Likud" from kidnapping and killing Arabs. What would Canada's reaction to this be? Would Justin Trudeau get a new hairstyle, and then announce that: "Hamas has a right to defend the Palestinians"?
#15319453
QatzelOk wrote:It is exactly this in-your-face double-standard that reveals the racism and bad faith that is behind both the creation of the Israeli settler state, and its ongoing genocidal behavior against the local indigenous Arabs populations.

Imagine if Hamas was bombing Israel and killing thousands of Israeli babies in order to "stop Likud" from kidnapping and killing Arabs. What would Canada's reaction to this be? Would Justin Trudeau get a new hairstyle, and then announce that: "Hamas has a right to defend the Palestinians"?


I guess that starting a war by committing a massacre doesn't help your cause at all, after all.

At least not among normal people, far left racists are a different matter.
#15319455
wat0n wrote:I guess that starting a war by committing a massacre doesn't help your cause at all, after all.


Are you talking about the actions of Israel here?

At least not among normal people, far left racists are a different matter.


Normal people tend to oppose genocide. And of course this is yet another lie of yours. Leftists are inherently anti-racist.
#15319457
The focus on October 7 is a red herring.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that Hamas are actually the stereotypical moustache twirling villains that @wat0n believes they are, and they did all the heinous things that the IDF and Israeli government accuse them of, and (magically) Israeli policy was not part of the causal chain that led to October 7, that still does not change any fact or argument about IDF and Israeli government war crimes in any way.
#15319467
KurtFF8 wrote:Are you talking about the actions of Israel here?


No. This war was started by Hamas.

KurtFF8 wrote:Normal people tend to oppose genocide.


Thankfully there's no genocide in Gaza.

KurtFF8 wrote:And of course this is yet another lie of yours. Leftists are inherently anti-racist.


No you're not.

Leftists are actively standing for antisemitism as shown by the support by the pro-Palestine left of October 7, antisemitism goes back to Marx himself and you have examples of explicit antisemitic policy in leftist states like the USSR. That's not counting the active efforts to stymie opposition to Hitler when the USSR was trying to join the Axis.

Pants-of-dog wrote:The focus on October 7 is a red herring.


It's not. It's exactly why there's an ongoing war.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that Hamas are actually the stereotypical moustache twirling villains that @wat0n believes they are, and they did all the heinous things that the IDF and Israeli government accuse them of, and (magically) Israeli policy was not part of the causal chain that led to October 7,


And now justifying October 7, as usual from racist leftists. It seems massacres are okay and not worth of any punishment to leftists if the victims are or believed to be Jewish as long as the perpetrators are liked by leftists.

Pants-of-dog wrote: that still does not change any fact or argument about IDF and Israeli government war crimes in any way.


Certainly not. Hamas' use of shielding however does.
#15319472
wat0n wrote:No. This war was started by Hamas.


So are you claiming that Israel had killed no Palestinians prior to October 7th?

Thankfully there's no genocide in Gaza.


Genocide denial is an ugly thing.


No you're not.

Leftists are actively standing for antisemitism as shown by the support by the pro-Palestine left of October 7, antisemitism goes back to Marx himself and you have examples of explicit antisemitic policy in leftist states like the USSR. That's not counting the active efforts to stymie opposition to Hitler when the USSR was trying to join the Axis.


Just more nonsense and grasping at straws by you. Fortunately your argument here is so fringe that it isn't taken seriously by anyone who knows even an elementary amount of information about these topics.
#15319473
KurtFF8 wrote:So are you claiming that Israel had killed no Palestinians prior to October 7th?


So are you claiming Hamas had killed no Israelis prior to October 7th?

KurtFF8 wrote:Genocide denial is an ugly thing.


Making up false accusations of genocide is an ugly thing.

So is hypocrisy, given the left's denial of Holodomor.

KurtFF8 wrote:Just more nonsense and grasping at straws by you. Fortunately your argument here is so fringe that it isn't taken seriously by anyone who knows even an elementary amount of information about these topics.


Not nonsense, just objective facts.

The SJP if anything publicly came in support of those groups supporting October 7.

Marx's antisemitic writings are well known.

The USSR's institutionalized antisemitism is also well known, and proven by policies like the numerus clausus.

Stalin's attempt to join the Axis and the Comintern's active efforts to stymie the Allied fight against Nazism before Barbarossa is also well known.
#15319476
wat0n wrote:So are you claiming Hamas had killed no Israelis prior to October 7th?


No.

Making up false accusations of genocide is an ugly thing.

So is hypocrisy, given the left's denial of Holodomor.


The projection here is wild. You, a genocide denier, are now trying to do the classic projection/gaslighting thing of "but you're the real genocide denier!"

And as usual, you can't stay on topic and have to quickly try to change to a totally unrelated historical event. Classic deflection.

Not nonsense, just objective facts.

The SJP if anything publicly came in support of those groups supporting October 7.

Marx's antisemitic writings are well known.

The USSR's institutionalized antisemitism is also well known, and proven by policies like the numerus clausus.

Stalin's attempt to join the Axis and the Comintern's active efforts to stymie the Allied fight against Nazism before Barbarossa is also well known.


More grasping at straws. SJP did not say they support the actions of October 7th as far as I'm aware. Show me a statement where they did.

Marx's only work that focuses on Judaism as a religion is about how its a religion that is repressed by the German state of that time and is a work about how to achieve true emancipation and the limits of bourgeois democracy. Did he have objectionable stereotypes in the work? Yes. Is it a work against Jewish people? No. Is any of this relevant to the program or positions of any contemporary Left wing group? No.

It's interesting that you focus on a very specific component of the USSR on this question yet you ignore other actions of the USSR like literally ending the Holocaust which I note that you conveniently ignore every time I bring it up. You've also failed to demonstrate how these policies of the USSR are reflected in any contemporary Left wing organization.

And the "USSR tried to join the Axis" is not taken as a very serious point by anyone who has an elementary understanding of the USSR at that time as we've discussed before. Prior to this, the USSR had also tried to get the West to plan a security pact to invade Germany to stop fascism but the West rejected it. There are plenty of valid criticisms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but this is what the focus should be, not on the non-serious discussion about the USSR potentially joining the Axis. More important than your incorrect framing of history here: it is not relevant to any position of any contemporary Left wing organizations.
#15319478
KurtFF8 wrote:No.


Then?

KurtFF8 wrote:The projection here is wild. You, a genocide denier, are now trying to do the classic projection/gaslighting thing of "but you're the real genocide denier!"

And as usual, you can't stay on topic and have to quickly try to change to a totally unrelated historical event. Classic deflection.


No projection here.

Just showing how you deny an actual and well-documented genocide yet we're supposed to accept the farcical claims of genocide your camps makes.

KurtFF8 wrote:More grasping at straws. SJP did not say they support the actions of October 7th as far as I'm aware. Show me a statement where they did.


SJP publicly supported those organizations glorifying the October 7 massacre, arguing one can't tell Palestinians how to "resist". If this isn't supporting October 7, what is?

KurtFF8 wrote:Marx's only work that focuses on Judaism as a religion is about how its a religion that is repressed by the German state of that time and is a work about how to achieve true emancipation and the limits of bourgeois democracy. Did he have objectionable stereotypes in the work? Yes. Is it a work against Jewish people? No. Is any of this relevant to the program or positions of any contemporary Left wing group? No.


Oh but it is.

Marx's anti-semitic stereotypes certainly informed later writings.

This nonsense is like saying we should ignore other racist tropes just because they're actually good for those being stereotyped. Like for instance the noble savage nonsense that is common among contemporary leftists and even shared by some in this forum.

KurtFF8 wrote:It's interesting that you focus on a very specific component of the USSR on this question yet you ignore other actions of the USSR like literally ending the Holocaust which I note that you conveniently ignore every time I bring it up.


Firstly, you're a hypocrite since you'd not hold people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson to this standard. Under the leftist standard, their ownership of slaves trumps everything else.

Secondly, Soviet antisemitism included segregation of Jewish students from higher education, exactly what I'm saying leftists are doing whether they admit it or not.

KurtFF8 wrote:You've also failed to demonstrate how these policies of the USSR are reflected in any contemporary Left wing organization.


They're reflected in the harassment of Jewish students and their attempts to ban Jewish student organizations from campus.

KurtFF8 wrote:And the "USSR tried to join the Axis" is not taken as a very serious point by anyone who has an elementary understanding of the USSR at that time as we've discussed before. Prior to this, the USSR had also tried to get the West to plan a security pact to invade Germany to stop fascism but the West rejected it. There are plenty of valid criticisms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but this is what the focus should be, not on the non-serious discussion about the USSR potentially joining the Axis. More important than your incorrect framing of history here: it is not relevant to any position of any contemporary Left wing organizations.


It's odd how leftists just love to talk about history when discussing racism by right-wingers but are suddenly so shy to discuss history when it comes to their racism.
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