South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 78 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15319835
If the only criticism is a weird set of straw men, then there seems to be no disagreement that rational and reasonable fears of settler colonialism were the cause of the violence.

This is different from October 7 in one important respect: October 7th was not about a perceived threat of future settler colonialism but instead was fuelled by a direct historical experience of settler colonialism in the recent past and in the present moment.
#15319838
Pants-of-dog wrote:If the only criticism is a weird set of straw men, then there seems to be no disagreement that rational and reasonable fears of settler colonialism were the cause of the violence.


It's not a straw man, it's just reality.

I will note that this rhetoric was quite similar to the rhetoric behind the Great Replacement Theory.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This is different from October 7 in one important respect: October 7th was not about a perceived threat of future settler colonialism but instead was fuelled by a direct historical experience of settler colonialism in the recent past and in the present moment.


And now we have more attempts to justify October 7.
#15319914
October 7 is not justified nor does it heed to be.

The question of whether or not it was “justified” is for hand wringing over tea while trying to claim a moral high ground. It is irrelevant.

The question is what is causing the violence, The violence, justified or not, is being caused by the oppression of settler colonialism.

To ignore the history of what caused October 7, as Zionists do, is to invite another auch attack. Which seems to be what Zionists want.
#15319917
The violence is caused by extremism and irredentism on both sides. We know that because it predates the establishment of the State of Israel.

And those who justify such violence have done so ever since, and still do now obviously. In some cases they even project their desire for mass murder and rape on their victims, which is also not new.
#15319930
Pants-of-dog wrote:October 7 is not justified nor does it heed to be.

The question of whether or not it was “justified” is for hand wringing over tea while trying to claim a moral high ground. It is irrelevant.

The question is what is causing the violence, The violence, justified or not, is being caused by the oppression of settler colonialism.

To ignore the history of what caused October 7, as Zionists do, is to invite another auch attack. Which seems to be what Zionists want.


There is no moral high ground for October 7th or what Israel does nowadays to Gaza just fifty shades of terror. But this is what you get since all of you support pro-war parties on both sides.
#15319932
JohnRawls wrote:There is no moral high ground for October 7th or what Israel does nowadays to Gaza just fifty shades of terror. But this is what you get since all of you support pro-war parties on both sides.


It has nothing to do with who is supporting each side. Neither the IDF nor Hamas care about the feels of some random internet people.

This is about one group trying to take the land and resources of another group, and the latter group opposing them with whatever limited means they have.

Hamas did not attack on October 7 because some internet people would support them, but acted for clear historical reasons. The mainstream liberals and centrists seem to be ignoring these reasons. This is bound to create the conditions for another such attack.
#15319945
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is about one group trying to take the land and resources of another group, and the latter group opposing them with whatever limited means they have.


"whatever limited means they have" includes support from other quasi-state military organizations (like Hezbollah and the Houthis), from state actors such as Qatar and Iran. And if we are talking about the greater picture of Palestinians vs. Israelis, both sides receive great amounts of foreign support in different forms.

Yes, Hamas exists because of hatred and frustration. My fear is that we will still be in this exact situation in another 75 years, having buried 10s of thousands of Israelis and millions of Palestinians in early graves along the way.
#15319949
Pants-of-dog wrote:It has nothing to do with who is supporting each side. Neither the IDF nor Hamas care about the feels of some random internet people.

This is about one group trying to take the land and resources of another group, and the latter group opposing them with whatever limited means they have.

Hamas did not attack on October 7 because some internet people would support them, but acted for clear historical reasons. The mainstream liberals and centrists seem to be ignoring these reasons. This is bound to create the conditions for another such attack.


YEs but they do care about the mass of people on the internet and world. If you think that one individual doesn't matter then the mass also doesn't matter. And if an individual does matter then the mass also matters. Get enough individuals to sway around then you will also sway the mass around.
#15320009
JohnRawls wrote:YEs but they do care about the mass of people on the internet and world. If you think that one individual doesn't matter then the mass also doesn't matter. And if an individual does matter then the mass also matters. Get enough individuals to sway around then you will also sway the mass around.


I am not sure mass feels matter.

Hamas would have attacked o matter what the mass feels were. The mass feels make it more or less likely that they can stop settler colonialism, but they would have significantly less impact on the motivations of Hamas militants.
#15320092
wat0n wrote:More justifications for October 7 coming from @Pants-of-dog ...


October 7 doesn't need justification from anyone. It exists, and will continue to exist, in order to provide a date between October 6 and October 8.

This obsession you have with a date... is a strategy that you use to avoid talking about any of the historical or sociological conditions of Palestinians. For you, you just have to yell out "that awful day!" and then wait for crocodile tears to appear in your eyes.

Hollywood must surely admire your tactics, but unfortunately, I don't watch movies. Replaying a film called "October 7" over and over... doesn't convince me at all. I need historical and sociological context to "believe" anything.
#15320104
QatzelOk wrote:October 7 doesn't need justification from anyone. It exists, and will continue to exist, in order to provide a date between October 6 and October 8.

This obsession you have with a date... is a strategy that you use to avoid talking about any of the historical or sociological conditions of Palestinians. For you, you just have to yell out "that awful day!" and then wait for crocodile tears to appear in your eyes.

Hollywood must surely admire your tactics, but unfortunately, I don't watch movies. Replaying a film called "October 7" over and over... doesn't convince me at all. I need historical and sociological context to "believe" anything.


Oh yes, I don't doubt you're not convinced. It's not like you believe Jews are human at all anyway.

Of course someone who justifies scalping children is okay with the October 7 massacre.
#15320115
A lot of time is wasted in this thread explaining how @wat0n misunderstood something.

———————

On topic:

This case before the ICJ is, to a large degree, spectacle.

Even if Israel is found guilty of everything, there will be no real punishment. The ICJ has no enforcement body. It would be up to individual countries to do something about it. And since most western countries have unambiguously supported the Israeli genocide, it is logical to assume that things will go on as usual after the verdict is reached, no matter what the verdict is.
#15320157
    In an interview with AFP, Nambitha Dambuza, a judge of appeal in the Supreme Court of South Africa, lamented that Israel faces few constraints in prosecuting its war.

    "The cause of the state concerned, Israel, is so deep and they're convinced they're in the right and they know there's hardly anything that's going to happen if they continue with their conduct," Dambuza said.

    "Accountability can be a choice among states and I'm not saying all states are the same. Some are more sensitive to pressure, and they might adjust their conduct accordingly, but others will not," added Dambuza who was in New York for the UN's High Level Political Forum.


https://www.newarab.com/news/hardly-any ... rica-judge

It is hard to believe in the myth of international justice when there is seemingly no way to hold criminal countries accountable.
#15320657
The deliberate and systematic destruction of homes is also a form of ethnic cleansing.

This destruction of communities creates a situation where many Palestinians are for ed to flee to other countries, ,and because of Israel’s apartheid law concerning right of return, these Palestinians are unable to return, thus leaving the land open for Israeli settler colonialism.
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