[wat0n]

This is of course just false.

How so? It's not like Fidel Castro didn't heavily involve his own family in his affairs.

[KurtFF8]

How so? It's not like Fidel Castro didn't heavily involve his own family in his affairs.

It's surprising that this needs to be explained to you. Fidel Castro was not a part of the ruling class of Cuba prior to 1959. So the revolution of 1959 succeeding was not a case of a section of the ruling class competing with another section of it. It was a popular revolution that saw the masses take over which was an alliance composed primarily of peasants, the urban proletariat, and some segments of the "middle class."

I don't know if it's that you just don't know much about the subject or if you're just trolling on this. Of course you keep trying to derail this thread. As I've said multiple times: if you want to continue this topic, start a thread. This is a thread about Biden withdrawing from the election, not a thread about Fidel Castro.

[wat0n]

@KurtFF8 well, you're back to your already debunked nonsense.

Anyway, just like Fidel, Trump is indeed part of the ruling class. And just like Fidel did, I don't doubt he wants to use the state for his own and his family's ends.

[KurtFF8]

Imagine comparing Donald Trump to Fidel Castro and trying to be taken seriously.

[wat0n]

It's too bad we already know how Marxism-Leninism actually works, and not just how the usual suspects want to sell it to us, @KurtFF8

[Potemkin]

Right, so to assert that it was just one faction of the ruling class taking power would be false.

That is correct.

This is of course just false.

@wat0n is of course trying to deny that there was a meaningful transformation of Cuban society following the victory of revolutionary forces over the Batista regime, since he wants to de-legitimise the Cuban Revolution.

[wat0n]

@wat0n is of course trying to deny that there was a meaningful transformation of Cuban society following the victory of revolutionary forces over the Batista regime, since he wants to de-legitimise the Cuban Revolution.

Oh, there was certainly a meaningful transformation of Cuban society after the revolution. But let's not pretend the revolution did not create a new elite, that parts of the old one were not part of it and/or that it delivered on its promises. Cuba has been stuck in socialism for a long while, without ever transitioning towards communism (including the abolition of the state), and if it ever stops being socialist it will be to transition back to capitalism just as it happened to the other formerly socialist countries.

[Rich]

Oh, there was certainly a meaningful transformation of Cuban society after the revolution. But let's not pretend the revolution did not create a new elite,

Precisely a new elite. This was a social revolution not an intra elite faction fight.

that parts of the old one were not part of it

This was not a Communist revolution from the start. This may well have allowed more members of the elite to jump ship, than happened in the Russian Revolution which was led by hard left socialists from the start. Two things are getting muddled up here. The leadership of Communist organisations has never been proletarian. The top leadership is overwhelmingly not drawn from manual labourers, industrial or farming. This is very different to saying they are just another faction of the elite.

and/or that it delivered on its promises. Cuba has been stuck in socialism for a long while, without ever transitioning towards communism (including the abolition of the state), and if it ever stops being socialist it will be to transition back to capitalism just as it happened to the other formerly socialist countries.

The are important points, very good that you're making them, but they are helped, by minimisation of the revolutionary nature of these genuine revolutions.

[wat0n]

@Rich this again assumes Fidel Castro was somehow not part of the pre-revolutionary elite. He definitely was.

[Pants-of-dog]

Is @wat0n seriously trying to argue Trump is a revolutionary by comparing him to Castro?

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog no, it seems you misunderstood. What I'm saying is that it is possible for someone in the ruling class to be a revolutionary, and Fidel Castro is an example of that.

I even said quite explicitly Trump is not a revolutionary.

[Pants-of-dog]

Then this whole tangent is off topic.

[SpecialOlympian]

Well, it's actually a pretty liberal position I am asserting here: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)

The liberal position was to never discuss it, actively shush airmchair psychologists for pointing out the obvious, and respect the office of the presidency as a matter of decorum. Liberals only just figured out that calling people who obsess over how Taylor Swift's eggs aren't getting any younger "weird" is effective, as it accurately describes the reality of the modern American conservative movement and its desire to control women and "bring consequences back to sex." Took them a decade+, but they got there.

So when you decided to become the weirdest kind of right wing weirdo, did you choose Catholicism or Orthodoxy? Why?

I hope it's Catholicism because I never even got confirmed, I just started going up and grabbing a wafer whenever I got dragged to church in adulthood. That or sneak out for a cigarette because church is pretty much over at that point. I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to say "Amen" or a "And also with you" when I grab the wafer, I just mumble. You sure as hell aren't supposed to drop it unless you want to be stuck there for an extra 30 minutes.

When the revolutionary forces took power in Cuba, the economic basis of Cuban society was fundamentally changed. This is what made it a social revolution rather than merely one faction of a larger ruling elite taking power from a rival faction of that same ruling elite, which would essentially have changed nothing. Same shit, different assholes. Lol.

I will never forgive the Cuban people until they repay the Mafia for the casinos they developed in the special economic development zones Batista provided for them. The Cubans spat in the face of their generosity.

[KurtFF8]

Is @wat0n seriously trying to argue Trump is a revolutionary by comparing him to Castro?

Yes, it's just a weird troll attempt. It's also an attempt to derail this thread.

[wat0n]

Yes, it's just a weird troll attempt. It's also an attempt to derail this thread.

I'm simply correcting you on your nonsense

[KurtFF8]

Guess @wat0n was successful in his derailing of the thread.

[wat0n]

Guess @wat0n was successful in his derailing of the thread.

Since we can agree that revolutionaries can in fact be part of the ruler class, let's discuss the real reason Trump isn't one (in the Marxist sense): He does not want to fundamentally change the US economic system.

OTOH wanting to trash the institutions from inside might be revolutionary in a broader, not necessarily Marxist, sense. Like he did in the 2020 election fraud nonsense, which was an attempt to destroy the US' institutions.