[wat0n]

Thee rhetoric alone is of course not sufficient to show a genocide is happening, although there is plenty of evidence of genocidal rhetoric from the regime. But the actions of the regime is where we see the genocide. The massive killing of civilians and the displacement of almost the entire population is the genocide.

Then you don't even know what a genocide is to begin with.

Also, how many civilians have been killed in Gaza?

[Pants-of-dog]

So according to the argument put forth (that there is no genocide in Palestine because there are still Palestinians there) there has never been (for example) an Armenian genocide, since there are still Armenians. This argument put forth by Zionists can also be applied to Jews in Europe: since there are Jews in Europe, no pogroms or genocide of Jews ever took place in Europe.

Since we know this is incorrect (i.e. the Armenian genocide and Holocaust were real), this argument is incorrect.

[wat0n]

It seems @Pants-of-dog has no counterarguments so he's making his own up. Funny.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, I am making my own counter arguments to the arguments presented by those denying the current genocide.

That is how it is supposed to work.

[KurtFF8]

So according to the argument put forth (that there is no genocide in Palestine because there are still Palestinians there) there has never been (for example) an Armenian genocide, since there are still Armenians. This argument put forth by Zionists can also be applied to Jews in Europe: since there are Jews in Europe, no pogroms or genocide of Jews ever took place in Europe.

Since we know this is incorrect (i.e. the Armenian genocide and Holocaust were real), this argument is incorrect.

These are indeed the conclusions that @wat0n would make if he were to apply the logic he's using here to those genocides.

[wat0n]

Yes, I am making my own counter arguments to the arguments presented by those denying the current genocide.

That is how it is supposed to work.

You're supposed to address my arguments, not address some straw man you came up with.

These are indeed the conclusions that @wat0n would make if he were to apply the logic he's using here to those genocides.

I still want the figures.

Why? Because if the civilian casualty ratios are low relative to other wars then you can't claim that.

No, not all wars are genocide.

[KurtFF8]

I still want the figures.

Why? Because if the civilian casualty ratios are low relative to other wars then you can't claim that.

No, not all wars are genocide.

The civilian to combatant ratio is the highest of any conflict in the 21st century

You will probably claim that this is fake news, but for those of us living in reality, this yet more proof of the war crimes being committed by the regime.

[wat0n]

The civilian to combatant ratio is the highest of any conflict in the 21st century

You will probably claim that this is fake news, but for those of us living in reality, this yet more proof of the war crimes being committed by the regime.

That's not what the page says.

The page says that by January, 250 people were killed per day without distinguishing between civilians and combatants.

By January 31, the figure has decreased to 131 and will likely keep doing so.

So, how about you provide the figure of civilians killed?

[KurtFF8]

The page literally claims it's the highest ratio of any conflict in the 21st century @wat0n . The fact that this makes your previous comment look even worse is on you, not the facts.

And every other study, estimate, count (with of course the sole exception of unsubstantiated claims by the very regime doing the killing) has also claimed an outrageous civilian death count.

You of course have elsewhere justified these deaths by simply blaming Hamas, or I believe also pointing to urban warfare and casualties as just being a part of it. Another goalpost move by you as usual.

[wat0n]

The page literally claims it's the highest ratio of any conflict in the 21st century @wat0n . The fact that this makes your previous comment look even worse is on you, not the facts.

And every other study, estimate, count (with of course the sole exception of unsubstantiated claims by the very regime doing the killing) has also claimed an outrageous civilian death count.

You of course have elsewhere justified these deaths by simply blaming Hamas, or I believe also pointing to urban warfare and casualties as just being a part of it. Another goalpost move by you as usual.

You don't read your own sources, do you?

Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day which exceeds the daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam said today, as the escalation of hostilities nears its 100th day.

"People" includes both civilians and combatants.

So how many civilians have been killed again?

[KurtFF8]

You don't read your own sources, do you?

Ironic for you to claim when the only source you seem to accept is the regime that's doing the killing.

[wat0n]

Ironic for you to claim when the only source you seem to accept is the regime that's doing the killing.

No.

I'm still waiting, how many civilians have been killed?

Also, if we go by your own standard then Hamas killed 1,175 in a single day on October 7 (796 of them civilians), yet it's somehow not genocidal.

This goes to show just how full of shit you and also Oxfam are.

[KurtFF8]

This goes to show just how full of shit you and also Oxfam are.

Called it. I'm not surprised that you restored to the typical Trumpian "fake news" retort to facts you don't like.

[wat0n]

Called it. I'm not surprised that you restored to the typical Trumpian "fake news" retort to facts you don't like.

No.

I am criticizing your (and Oxfam's) hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to your "concern" about genocide and war casualties respectively.

So, how many Gazan civilians have been killed thus far?

[Pants-of-dog]

So the mere presence of a targeted group does not refute the claim that the targeted group is being targeted with genocide and ethnic cleansing (since that would mean the Holocaust never happened) then it is entirely plausible that the Israeli government and the IDF are targeting Gaza for ethnic cleansing through this war in preparation for settlements, as they are openly doing in the West Bank.

[wat0n]

Right, you need to prove intent first. I'm still waiting for actual proof, not statements taken out of context.

So let's start with answering the obvious question: How many Gazan civilians have been killed?

[Pants-of-dog]

That reminds me that my question about how many Gaza residents have access to their own family home, clean water, school, doctors, and a job.

I predict it will be ignored again.

[wat0n]

Few do, and that's because Hamas took over their schools and hospitals to use them as military installations, fired rockets right next to where they live and also was stupid enough to (among other things) destroy part of the infrastructure Israel uses to deliver them water on October 7.

How does this prove genocidal intent?

And I'm still waiting, how many Gazan civilians have been killed?

[SpecialOlympian]

Genocide doesn't require killing. That is the popular understanding of genocide. However, one could argue that Israel is trying to create conditions that cause Palestinians to vacate the region. That, is actually genocide too.

At the same time, how could you even prove that is one of the goals of Israel? Currently, their only stated goal is to destroy Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

This kind of reminds me of trying to prove discrimination in the work place. It's totally plausible, but often very hard to concretely prove (which is what makes work place discrimination so insidious). The same is true here. Sure, Israel could have the secret goal of displacing all Palestinians, but it being plausible, doesn't mean they are guilty of it. so... round and round we go.

Dunno... just some thoughts.

Israel is just doing the modern version of what we did to Native Americans. Controlling where they live. Making their living conditions hostile. Outright killing them and trapping in increasingly smaller boxes to take their land.

It’s and evil and cruel and stupid and I hate my country for supporting it.

You can only fire rockets at a bakery or a school or a hospital and say, “Our opponent was using hundreds of women and children as human shields” so many times before it becomes apparent that the reduction of Palestinian lives is your real goal.

Also Palestine isn’t a state. They don’t have military targets. Israel will never allow the Palestinians to have military bases or legitimate targets for their violence.

[Rich]

A Palestinian state is pure idiocy. Gaza should go back to Egypt and the West Bank minus East Jerusalem and its western edge should go back to Jordan. Neither Egypt nor Jordan should be given any choice is this matter. A Palestinian state makes no economic sense what so ever. It has no cultural reason to exist. The only thing that binds Gaza and the West Bank together is a hatred of Jews and Israel and a hunger to regain all the lands taken by the Jews.

I'm deeply proud to have been one of the earliest supporters of regime change in Iraq. My thinking was quite straightforward, the Arab Shia majority needed to be ruled by an Arab Shia government. Ideally the Sunni kurds would be ruled by a Sunni Kurd government as well. I had no illusions about SCIRI or DAWA, always likely to be the biggest winners of any free elections in Iraq,

Similarly the Sunni Arabs of Palestine need to be ruled by a Sunni Arab government. Questions of democracy, free speech, civil liberties etc are secondary to this.