[Pants-of-dog]

The tactic of bombing Hamas buildings (or more correctly, buildings that Hamas has been accused of using) has been shown to be ineffective since the IDF has already bombed 70% of all schools, 70% of all homes, all food production, all the hospitals, and the majority of businesses, and Hamas is still in power.

The IDF has definitely eroded their ability to govern, but only by destroying the communities that Hamas is governing.

[wat0n]

The IDF has eroded Hamas' ability to govern by forcing it go underground for as much as possible, killing or wounding thousands of its most experienced combat men and destroying quite a bit of their arms and general infrastructure. Unfortunately this has indeed had a huge cost for civilians, just like it happened with ISIS (although everyone pretty much accepted it and moved on in this latter case) and as everyone who cared was aware before this war.

If Israel follows the logical next step (committing to two states, letting a multinational force or the Palestinian Authority replace Hamas as the government of Gaza) Hamas will end like ISIS has (unable to govern anywhere). Of course, this would mean Israel would need a Prime Minister whose top priority is actually winning this war and not lengthening it for as long as possible to avoid responsibility for his failures on October 7 and his previous (and ongoing) corruption trials.

[Pants-of-dog]

So why has the bombing of civilian buildings not stopped then?

If it was so effective, why is the war still going on full tilt?

so far, it seems ineffective if you have to destroy almost all the buildings and they are still not only governing but also fighting.

[wat0n]

Simple, because there's still tunnels to find and destroy, like wherever Sinwar is hiding.

Hamas is only able to launch guerrilla-style raids inside Gaza, unable to respond by launching any major attacks inside Israeli territory (including rocket launches) even after Haniyeh was killed in Tehran.

[Pants-of-dog]

So how the argument has moved to “we must bomb almost all the buildings in Gaza snd deprive people of education and medical care in order to destroy tunnels.

This is even more ineffective than the previous argument.

[wat0n]

We haven't moved from anything.

@Pants-of-dog using some nonsensical straw man, as usual.

[KurtFF8]

The high number of casualties is a direct result of the Hamas strategy of surrounding themselves with civilians.
This strategy has worked for many years but this is no longer the case. The atrocities committed on October 7 2023 were such that the Israelis had no option but to restore their deterrent with an iron fist. That includes turning Gaza into a giant heap of rubble. This is not 1943 but 2024. The price for killing Jews is very high these days.

Opinions may vary.

Fortunately few people except the most extremist of the regime defenders really takes this kind of argument seriously anymore. The idea that "Hamas put all those civilians close by to be killed by the regime" is just such a weak defense of blatant war crimes.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, Hamas forced all of Gaza to build 70% of their homes and schools, all of their hospitals and food production, and most of their businesses right over Hamas tunnels so that the IDF would have no choice but to destroy all of that while miraculously not heeding to do the same for the Israeli homes and buildings also located over Hamas tunnels.

I had no idea Hamas had control over construction in Gaza for the last century or so.

[wat0n]

Yes, Hamas forced all of Gaza to build 70% of their homes and schools, all of their hospitals and food production, and most of their businesses right over Hamas tunnels so that the IDF would have no choice but to destroy all of that while miraculously not heeding to do the same for the Israeli homes and buildings also located over Hamas tunnels.

I had no idea Hamas had control over construction in Gaza for the last century or so.

Actually, Hamas built its tunnels under those previously built homes. It's not like Gazans could stop them anyway.

[Deutschmania]

Yes, Hamas forced all of Gaza to build 70% of their homes and schools, all of their hospitals and food production, and most of their businesses right over Hamas tunnels so that the IDF would have no choice but to destroy all of that while miraculously not heeding to do the same for the Israeli homes and buildings also located over Hamas tunnels.

I had no idea Hamas had control over construction in Gaza for the last century or so.

Israel reminds me of Taylor Swift , in this music video . The situation also reminds me of this comedy sketch . Israel provokes people to attack them , and then tries to play the victim .

[wat0n]

Oh yes, Israel totally provoked the massacre and expulsion of Hebron's Jews in 1929.

[Pants-of-dog]

The thread is not about 1929.

The Israeli government almost certainly did provoke the attacks on October 7, with the open air prison, blockade, Apartheid laws, arbitrary detention and daily killings of Palestinians in the name of settler colonialism.

And the argument that Hamas provoked the IDF into killing civilians by building tunnels is merely a myth, since Zionists in this thread have already refuted the claim that tunnels are a valid justification.

[wat0n]

The thread is not about 1929.

The Israeli government almost certainly did provoke the attacks on October 7, with the open air prison, blockade, Apartheid laws, arbitrary detention and daily killings of Palestinians in the name of settler colonialism.

And the argument that Hamas provoked the IDF into killing civilians by building tunnels is merely a myth, since Zionists in this thread have already refuted the claim that tunnels are a valid justification.

You don't get to decide how far back in time we look into to assess the causes of the October 7 massacre, which you're once again justifying, and the subsequent war.

I'm also not all too sure about your last sentence, it seems you're either misunderstanding or setting up a straw man (both are usual behavior).

[Pants-of-dog]

If someone wants to argue that the oppressive conditions inflicted on Palestinians by the Israeli government and the IDF were not causes of the October 7 attack, then they should make that argument with logic and evidence.

It is stupid to think that the Israeli government and IDF can treat people that way and not expect a militant reacrion.

[wat0n]

Sure.

Hamas has always refused to participate in any sort of peace process with Israel and actively undermined the Oslo process by attacking Israeli civilians.

This is objectively true.

October 7 was just the latest instance of this.

Going farther back in time, the earliest instance of this type of irredentist behavior was the 1929 Hebron massacre.

It is stupid to believe Israelis would not respond to these massacres in one way or another, just like the West decided to respond to ISIS' massacres and terrorism.

[Pants-of-dog]

None of that refutes the claim that Israeli oppression was a cause of the October 7 attack.

[wat0n]

Israel did not control Gaza to begin with, the main oppressor of Gazans was and still is Hamas. Indeed, Hamas even repressed protests against its rule on July-August 2023.

Could it be that Hamas started this war to distract from these protests?

[Pants-of-dog]

The idea that Hamas would have started a war that could easily destroy the organization and the individuals currently running it for the sole purpose of getting a few PR points is even more implausible than the previous arguments.

Also, it does not matter if the Israeli government “controls” Gaza according to some arbitrary definition. They (along with the IDF) were still able to create the conditions that caused the October 7 attack even without some arbitrary “control”.

[wat0n]

So you're saying Israel is currently destroying Hamas, @Pants-of-dog?

Fact is, Gazans began to protest against Hamas just a few weeks before its attack against Israel. It's up to you to refute the claim that Hamas attacked Israel to distract from the protests. I will also note that the fact Hamas managed to repress those and other previous protests by Gazans is strong evidence of its control over Gaza, which I would also think you don't disagree with since you claimed Hamas even now governs Gaza.

It seems Hamas was just being slowly strangled prior to October 7, and it decided to go all in. Because if it wasn't ended out by Gazans, its rule would face a long term existential threat by a Saudi-Israeli peace treaty.

[Pants-of-dog]

The Israeli government and IDF are openly saying that the goal is to destroy Hamas.

The threat faced by individuals in Hamas is existential.

Thus, it is illogical to assume that these individuals would choose to create a situation that is potentially lethal for themselves merely to distract from some event that may not even have happened as Zionists think it did.

This, accompanied by the complete lack of evidence for the claim, refutes the idea that Hamas attacked on October 7 for reasons that have nothing to do with Israeli oppression.