[wat0n]

Or maybe that's what one could expect given that combat is taken place primarily in urban areas.

Mosul is a great comparison - based on the battlefield and the tactics used - and most of the city was damaged or destroyed. This includes schools, hospitals, water treatment plants, etc.

[Pants-of-dog]

Deliberately ignoring how the evidence shows a deliberate and systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure in designated safe areas and corridors, while using a whataboutism, is not an argument.

Considering that we have now seen multiple lines of evidence converging on the conclusion that the IDF deliberately and systematically attacked water infrastructure, it is illogical to argue it was just a big mistake.

[wat0n]

Or maybe Mosul is a great example that widespread damage resulting from urban fighting does not mean the destruction was deliberate or even systematic, given that the same observed result (the destruction of much of the city of Mosul) does not lead to such conclusions. Instead, it is seen as a consequence of urban warfare (not a mistake either).

[Pants-of-dog]

That seems like a long and unsupported assertion.

At this point, we are assuming that the level of damage was the same, the damage was equally widespread, that the same evidence exists for deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire population’s water supply, et cetera. This is a lot to assume and I doubt most of the assumptions are true.

And even if we assume that all the facts on the ground are comparable, we would then also need to assume that everyone sees the USA and Israel in the exact same objective way. This is also an unreasonable assumption.

And finally, it is not a refutation of anything. It could even be considered a reason to bring the USA to the ICJ, which may be a perfectly logical conclusion.

[wat0n]

We do not need to assume any of that.

One can just look at what happened in Mosul, where hospitals were destroyed and so were large parts of the city. Mosul's trapped civilians also faced starvation, both in terms of lack of food and access to water. Thousands of civilians were killed in the battle as well.

None of this is "arguable" at all.

BTW, nobody accused the US of genocide in that case, because it was not.

[Pants-of-dog]

Feel free to start providing evidence for this argument.

Start with addressing the current argument:

There is a study showing that the IDF and Israeli government deliberately and systematically targeted civilians in safe zones and corridors, water infrastructure, schools, and hospitals.

Can you show that this happened somewhere other than Gaza?

I assume that there is no argument that the IDF and Israeli government deliberately and systematically targeted civilians this way.

[wat0n]

I already put it

That's what happened in Mosul, and yes hospitals were targeted and destroyed too.



The same happened to Mosul's water infrastructure and schools.

There was almost no part of the city that was spared of damage or destruction from the battle.

[Pants-of-dog]

Please show where the evidecne is showing that Mosul was under a blockade for a significant amount of time, long enough to have pre-existing conditions of water and food scarcity.

[wat0n]

Well, Mosul was in fact surrounded in an offensive that began in January 2015, over a year and a half before the actual attempt to take the city began. So yes, scarcity was already a problem inside the city when the battle to take it started on October 2016.

[Pants-of-dog]

please provide evidence showing that there was food and water scarcity in the area prior to the attack.

[wat0n]

Life under Isis in Raqqa and Mosul: 'We're living in a giant prison'

Desperate civilians say extremists are tightening their grip on the two cities amid stepped-up airstrikes, while food and power shortages are adding to their misery

...

In Mosul, the crown jewel of the totalitarian proto-state run by the jihadis, residents report excruciating pressures on locals from the skies as well as the ground.

“Living standards have deteriorated as there is no money in the bazaar and no employment in the city,” says Abdulkarim, a resident of Mosul. “People are terrified of the bombardment by the coalition and beheading and stoning still goes on the city by the [Islamic] State.”

...

For Abdulkarim, the Mosul resident, the takeover of his hometown by Isis militants was at first a blessing. Under their rule, traffic across Mosul eased as blast walls were removed, security improved, and for a while, services such as electricity, water and street-cleaning were better than they had been when the Iraqi government was in control.

The 31-year-old government employee was happy to pay a small amount of his 835,000 dinar (£490) salary that came from Baghdad to Isis as tax, and even donated an extra 7,000 dinars to the caliphate voluntarily. The militants treated their new subjects with respect and greeted them when they passed each other in the street.


But as the city’s residents prepare for their second winter under Isis control, economic blockade from Baghdad and bombardment by the US-led coalition has made life grim.

In July, Baghdad stopped providing salaries to government employees living in areas under Isis control, including Abdulkarim, whose income vanished overnight.

The lack of cash means people cannot afford to buy anything but the most basic goods. Many shops have shut, and the price of fuel and gas has increased by four or five times.

...

“Mosul has become like a big prison and people appear to be sedated with the hope that one day things will change,” adds Raafat, whose own father was killed by extremists in 2003.

Those who work with Isis are entitled to certain benefits and Maajid, a 56-year-old mechanic in Mosul, said some people collaborated with the militants to receive bigger rations of fuel and food. Maajid, who has 11 children, said the situation was almost unbearable.

“Life is becoming more and more difficult,” he told the Guardian from inside the city. “Even if you live in the worst part of the world, you need food, water and electricity to survive.”

Maajid said he receives 80,000 dinars, 15kg of flour and 10kg of rice, as well as small quantities of other foodstuffs from Isis.

“I can’t live on this ration with my big family. People are angry but no one can protest.”

Mobile phones are banned, people are not allowed to smoke cigarettes and those caught listening to music are punished. The militants punish people who use the internet and mobile phones, fearing that they may provide intelligence to their enemy.

About a month ago, a man was found with a mobile phone in his possession and punished with 45 lashes. As he was being whipped, he cried out, swearing at the Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and for that he was executed, according to locals in the city.

Tired of hardship and living in constant fear of the militants and bombardment, hundreds are defying a ban on leaving, often paying large sums to smugglers to get them out. Those who are caught fleeing are punished severely.

In the frontline Iraqi town of Dibis near Kirkuk, the head of internal security Ali Mohammad is responsible for processing those who flee Isis controlled areas.

“We have collected the bodies of three children who died of hunger as the families walked on foot for hours to reach peshmerga positions,” he says.

About 1,000 people are being held in a village near the frontline, guarded by peshmerga as the Kurds try to process them one by one, to root out any infiltrators among them.

“We don’t have a problem with the IDPs [internally displaced persons] but we are worried that spies may have mingled and cross the frontline,” says Mohammad. “Daesh [Isis] has mined the path of people fleeing and my officers collected the bodies of five civilians that stepped on IEDs last month.”

Salah, a 34-year-old former police officer, fled from a village south of Mosul, swimming across the Great Zaab river to reach Kurdish positions. Exhausted but relieved to have escaped, Salah said: “If you are with them [Isis] they treat you well but if you are not they don’t treat you well. They treat you like second-class citizens.”

...

Last month, Isis began stopping people from leaving except in exceptional medical circumstances, reinforcing their checkpoints around the city’s entrances. They have kept rotating fighters periodically, to give residents a sense that the group remains powerful despite recent setbacks on the battlefield. Electricity is available sporadically, based chiefly on the whim of the militants. It remains unclear how airstrikes on oil and gas installations have affected energy supplies within the territory.

...

Services

Electricity and water has deteriorated significantly. Before Isis came, Mosul had about 20 hours a day of electricity from the national grid. Within four months of Isis taking over, it dropped to six-eight hours. For the past three months it has fallen to two hours a day. Each neighbourhood has water once a week at different times to fill up their tanks. In Raqqa, electricity is sporadic, dependent on how happy the militants are with the people’s adherence to their rules.

Fuel

In Mosul, the price of petrol has increased from 450 dinars to 2,000-2,500 dinars.

...

Coalition bombing

People in Mosul are terrified of coalition bombing raids. Civilians have reportedly been killed in two recent occasions. Isis sets up its bases in populated neighbourhoods.

In Raqqa, activists say people do not fear coalition raids which tend to target isolated Isis positions. But they also say the militants seek shelter in civilian streets, buildings and neighbourhoods when sirens alerting to an incoming coalition attack are on.

All of this sounds a lot like Gaza, I guess it makes sense since the situations were similar in many respects.

[Pants-of-dog]

Bold the sentence showing food and water scarcity.

The only mention I found was vague.

[wat0n]

So it is then confirmed @Pants-of-dog cannot, in fact, read?

Because if he could, he would be able to get what he's requesting.

[Pants-of-dog]

If the best evidence for an existing condition of food and water scarcity is this article, it is hard to argue that the situation is comparable to Gaza.

For example, there is no indication that military forces deliberately and systematically attacked food and water infrastructure.

The IDF on the other hand, has done so and there is evidence in the form of a study quoted in this thread.

[wat0n]

You were asking about the conditions prior to the battle for Mosul, as it was shown there was already scarcity of food, water, fuel and electricity before the battle because the city was surrounded and placed under siege.

It is also inarguably true that, during the battle itself, Mosul's water and food infrastructure, just as other key infrastructure, was attacked by the coalition as part of the effort to retake the city from ISIS.

Again, how is it different? It's not like any of this is a secret or anything. The US itself was quite open about combing hospitals like Al Salam (one of the largest in the city) once taken over by ISIS combatants.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, the food and water scarcity in Mosul happened because of the siege.

Palestine had food and water insecurity prior to any attack because of the blockade. So when the IDF and Israeli government cut off food and water, things went bad immediately. The same did not happen in Mosul. Consequently, this is not a good comparison and can be ignored.

[wat0n]

How is this supporting your arguments here @Pants-of-dog?

The siege definitely limited Mosul's civilian population access to food and water, as per the article cited above. That siege involved the blocking of access to all sorts of goods from reaching Mosul, as it happens in any siege or blockade. The attempt to take the city made things go bad immediately as well, including leading to famine among those civilians who were unable to flee the battlefield.

No different from Gaza in this regard.

[Pants-of-dog]

In both cases, the siege cut off supplies of food and water. In Mosul, this was not preceded by a blockade that created existing conditions In Palestine, the siege was preceded by a blockade causing food and water insecurity.

In both cases, the later attack destroyed the infrastructure. In Mosul, we do not have evidence that the water infrastructure was deliberately attacked. In Palestine, we have evidence that it was deliberately and systematically attacked.

These are important differences.

[wat0n]

Mosul had already been affected by the Iraq War since 2003, that's where the pre-existing conditions (at least prior to the siege) came from.

Also, by your own logic, any attacks that destroy infrastructure are deliberate since the attacker accepts that's what can happen. As such, Mosul's infrastructure was deliberately destroyed unless you have a different standard when it comes to Israel.

[Pants-of-dog]

The definition of “deliberately” is not mine.

It comes from the study showing the IDF “deliberately and systematically” (the quote marks indicate I am quoting the study) attacked water infrastructure.

Once again, misunderstanding the argument is not a refutation of the argument.

And the claim that water was a problem since 2003 is wrong, according to the evidence cited about Mosul’s water. It explicitly states that under ISIL, they had no water problems.