[Istanbuller]

It was said that Democratic Party's ideological ground was more right leaning than most right leaning parties in Europe. But that is no longer the case.

Republican Party in 2024 is pretty much like Democratic Party in 2000. And Democratic Party in 2024 is pushed to further left.

Reagan's party and libertarian-conservative right is almost dead. American right is occupied by center leftists.

[Potemkin]

"We need a strong Republican party."

-Nancy Pelosi, every day of her life

It is infuriating to watch a political party fumble time and time again when the opposition wants to put a cop in eery woman's vagina. They only recently discovered that calling the rightwing weird works. Just fucking pathetic.

The Democratic Party is the party of Jimmy Carter, history’s greatest monster. What else can you expect from them?

[Deutschmania]

Basically yes. We will be locked into a battle with stupidity every 4 years now.

No way ! I cannot take any more of this , election cycle after election cycle . I am fed up with us not being able to move forward as a country , as I have to continuously "vote blue no matter who" , just to try to keep America from sliding any further into a rising post-fascism . And as much as I wish that @Potemkin , and @annatar1914 are correct , and that in the wake of the seeming decline of liberalism , the Democratic party , or whatever the political party that would have supplanted them , would be the left-wing social populist counterweight to the Republican Fascist Party's right-wing national populism , that same sort of thing was also anticipated to have happened during the Great Depression , when the bourgeois liberal capitalist social system seemed to have been discredited . But , also harkening back to about a century ago , when those such as the Mitford family , had become divided due to political differences , my own family is likewise divided , with me , like Jessica Mitford , being the proverbial "red sheep" . If @Rancid thinks that it's frustrating for him to be having to deal with the mindless minions of Trump's MAGA cult of personality , just imagine how it is being me who has to live , and try to be nice and get along with the likes of them , all the while anticipating that I just might in time have to sneak off , and take up refuge with this fellow comrade of mine , whom lives on the other side of the country , if events take a turn for the worse , and Donald Trump at long last does succeed in becoming our elected dictator . And as I have yet to earn a driver's license , I vote simply by using a photo ID , my before mentioned comrade on Facebook , would have to drive all the way from Utah , where he resides , to Ohio , where I currently live . He told me not to worry about the distance , and I do trust that he could and would follow through on his offer to extricate me , if ever the need were to arise , for whatever reason . However , I do regret that I'd have to journey so far with someone whom I have only come to know online . And I would also feel bad for my family , especially for my mother, presumably being heartbroken with sorrow , and fear as to my whereabouts . Yet , if Trump were able to follow through on his threat of launching a repressive crackdown on political opponents , especially upon the radical left , of which I am an outspoken part of , I would be facing the prospect of being imprisoned in a detention camp , or perhaps even killed by a death squad . I strongly suspect that I have already come to the attention of the surveillance state , and have been placed on a watchlist . So I have a lot riding on the outcome of this election . I just don't look forward to potentially having to continuously compromise my conscience , by always voting for the Democratic candidate , in and out , no matter what . And I fear that ultimately this matter will wind up having to be settled not by elections and ballots , but rather by insurrections and bullets . If one or more sides refuses to abide by the rules of lower case D democratic government , then there can be no other possible outcome .

[Rancid]

No way ! I cannot take any more of this , election cycle after election cycle . I am fed up with us not being able to move forward as a country , as I have to continuously "vote blue no matter who" , just to try to keep America from sliding any further into a rising post-fascism . And as much as I wish that @Potemkin , and @annatar1914 are correct , and that in the wake of the seeming decline of liberalism , the Democratic party , or whatever the political party that would have supplanted them , would be the left-wing social populist counterweight to the Republican Fascist Party's right-wing national populism , that same sort of thing was also anticipated to have happened during the Great Depression , when the bourgeois liberal capitalist social system seemed to have been discredited . But , also harkening back to about a century ago , when those such as the Mitford family , had become divided due to political differences , my own family is likewise divided , with me , like Jessica Mitford , being the proverbial "red sheep" . If @Rancid thinks that it's frustrating for him to be having to deal with the mindless minions of Trump's MAGA cult of personality , just imagine how it is being me who has to live , and try to be nice and get along with the likes of them , all the while anticipating that I just might in time have to sneak off , and take up refuge with this fellow comrade of mine , whom lives on the other side of the country , if events take a turn for the worse , and Donald Trump at long last does succeed in becoming our elected dictator . And as I have yet to earn a driver's license , I vote simply by using a photo ID , my before mentioned comrade on Facebook , would have to drive all the way from Utah , where he resides , to Ohio , where I currently live . He told me not to worry about the distance , and I do trust that he could and would follow through on his offer to extricate me , if ever the need were to arise , for whatever reason . However , I do regret that I'd have to journey so far with someone whom I have only come to know online . And I would also feel bad for my family , especially for my mother, presumably being heartbroken with sorrow , and fear as to my whereabouts . Yet , if Trump were able to follow through on his threat of launching a repressive crackdown on political opponents , especially upon the radical left , of which I am an outspoken part of , I would be facing the prospect of being imprisoned in a detention camp , or perhaps even killed by a death squad . I strongly suspect that I have already come to the attention of the surveillance state , and have been placed on a watchlist . So I have a lot riding on the outcome of this election . I just don't look forward to potentially having to continuously compromise my conscience , by always voting for the Democratic candidate , in and out , no matter what . And I fear that ultimately this matter will wind up having to be settled not by elections and ballots , but rather by insurrections and bullets . If one or more sides refuses to abide by the rules of lower case D democratic government , then there can be no other possible outcome .

Buckle up. Hey, at least Putin is getting what he wants.

The sad thing about MAGA is that these are people that finally realized that the Bush/Reagan Republicans elites never cared about them and never were for the working class. They used symbols like the flag and the constitution to blind them. However, rather than gaining class consciousness and uniting, they ran to an even worse abuser who cares even less about them (Trump/TRumpism). Hence, why I think they are such fucking morons.

[Hakeer]

No way ! I cannot take any more of this , election cycle after election cycle . I am fed up with us not being able to move forward as a country , as I have to continuously "vote blue no matter who" , just to try to keep America from sliding any further into a rising post-fascism . And as much as I wish that @Potemkin , and @annatar1914 are correct , and that in the wake of the seeming decline of liberalism , the Democratic party , or whatever the political party that would have supplanted them , would be the left-wing social populist counterweight to the Republican Fascist Party's right-wing national populism , that same sort of thing was also anticipated to have happened during the Great Depression , when the bourgeois liberal capitalist social system seemed to have been discredited . But , also harkening back to about a century ago , when those such as the Mitford family , had become divided due to political differences , my own family is likewise divided , with me , like Jessica Mitford , being the proverbial "red sheep" . If @Rancid thinks that it's frustrating for him to be having to deal with the mindless minions of Trump's MAGA cult of personality , just imagine how it is being me who has to live , and try to be nice and get along with the likes of them , all the while anticipating that I just might in time have to sneak off , and take up refuge with this fellow comrade of mine , whom lives on the other side of the country , if events take a turn for the worse , and Donald Trump at long last does succeed in becoming our elected dictator . And as I have yet to earn a driver's license , I vote simply by using a photo ID , my before mentioned comrade on Facebook , would have to drive all the way from Utah , where he resides , to Ohio , where I currently live . He told me not to worry about the distance , and I do trust that he could and would follow through on his offer to extricate me , if ever the need were to arise , for whatever reason . However , I do regret that I'd have to journey so far with someone whom I have only come to know online . And I would also feel bad for my family , especially for my mother, presumably being heartbroken with sorrow , and fear as to my whereabouts . Yet , if Trump were able to follow through on his threat of launching a repressive crackdown on political opponents , especially upon the radical left , of which I am an outspoken part of , I would be facing the prospect of being imprisoned in a detention camp , or perhaps even killed by a death squad . I strongly suspect that I have already come to the attention of the surveillance state , and have been placed on a watchlist . So I have a lot riding on the outcome of this election . I just don't look forward to potentially having to continuously compromise my conscience , by always voting for the Democratic candidate , in and out , no matter what . And I fear that ultimately this matter will wind up having to be settled not by elections and ballots , but rather by insurrections and bullets . If one or more sides refuses to abide by the rules of lower case D democratic government , then there can be no other possible outcome .

Liberalism ain’t dead unless we give up the fight.
And I refuse to give up on democratic elections unless we have to overthrow a dictator to restore them. If Trump is elected and Republicans execute Project 25, we will be dangerously close to your prophecy. They are formidable but not unbeatable.

[Verv]

Liberalism ain’t dead unless we give up the fight.
And I refuse to give up on democratic elections unless we have to overthrow a dictator to restore them.

Sounds like you are some kinda second amendment extremist rn fr.

... But wht was it that that very Presidential, liberal Biden said about this?

“If you wanted or if you think you need to have weapons to take on the government, you need F-15s and maybe some nuclear weapons.

American Military News

But no, really now, let's think about this...

What was happening in the 2000s, or 1990s, or 1980s... etc... that was so different?

Why do we think Trump would be able to take away the bill of rights? It makes no sense - the courts would not consent, and the US military isn't loyal to him..? IDK.

Sounds like fearmongering.

Besides, the correct answer to this would be that democracy never existed anywhere. It's just the mask that oligarchy wears.

[Hakeer]

Sounds like you are some kinda second amendment extremist rn fr.

... But wht was it that that very Presidential, liberal Biden said about this?



American Military News

But no, really now, let's think about this...

What was happening in the 2000s, or 1990s, or 1980s... etc... that was so different?

Why do we think Trump would be able to take away the bill of rights? It makes no sense - the courts would not consent, and the US military isn't loyal to him..? IDK.

Sounds like fearmongering.

Besides, the correct answer to this would be that democracy never existed anywhere. It's just the mask that oligarchy wears.

The oligarchy wins BIG when Republicans are elected. Reagan, Bush, Trump. They get massive tax cuts and their corporations deregulated. They donate hundreds of billions to get them elected. That doesn’t happen with Democrats. Biden would have already raised taxes only on people making over $400,000 if not blocked by Republicans. Or take healthcare where Republicans voted about 50 times to repeal Obamacare. The oligarchy hates Obamacare, because it makes them subsidize healthcare for poor people and millions of others. How horrible! Or take environmental protection, abortion, gun control, etc. on down the list.

We do have democracy, and many who deny it are either ignorant or like Trump trying to destroy it by saying elections are rigged, or don’t matter. They matter a lot in many ways for both the oligarchs and the rest of us.

The Republicans could do a lot more of Project 25 if Trump wins control of House and Senate in 2024. But he can do a lot of damage by executive orders. And don’t kid yourself that he won’t do it when he says he’s going to prosecute his political enemies, especially with the Trumpster Supreme Court giving him absolute immunity for the crime. He doesn’t give a damn about the Bill of Rights, and will surround himself with people who will dutifully do what he wants.

On Second Amendment, I take the standard liberal position. But I also agree with Thomas Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence!

[Rugoz]

Why do we think Trump would be able to take away the bill of rights? It makes no sense - the courts would not consent, and the US military isn't loyal to him..? IDK.

Sounds like fearmongering.

The consent of the courts is irrelevant if the executive chooses to ignore them. As for the loyalty of the US military. Trump can invoke the insurrection act for pretty much anything. He can deploy troops in the cities, which are liberal bastions, and the rural MAGA morons will be absolutely thrilled. It's their wet dream. Hence I would not expect much political push-back from the Republicans. The more the violence escalates, the better for Trump. Blue state governors could refuse to hand over their national guards to Trump, but that is akin to a civil war as well.

I think there's a decent chance something like this will go down. Maybe not 50%, but not 1% either.

Besides, the correct answer to this would be that democracy never existed anywhere. It's just the mask that oligarchy wears.

Yawn. Nonsense.

[Deutschmania]

Why do we think Trump would be able to take away the bill of rights? It makes no sense - the courts would not consent, and the US military isn't loyal to him..? IDK.

Sounds like fearmongering.

Ever since this recent Supreme Court ruling , the President has been afforded a virtual cart blanche . And while I as a pacificist am opposed to initiating violence , even to further social progress , as a centrist Marxist , I do stand by the right of revolution , preferably a nonviolent revolution though .

[annatar1914]

Saw this:


"Conversation
Caitlin Johnstone
@caitoz
"If you're anti-war than why don't you support Trump?"

Because I fucking paid attention when he was president.

I watched the warmongering and militarism rolled out by his administration instead of mindlessly ingesting right wing media like a drooling moron.

I watched the evil things he did in nations like Yemen, Venezuela, Iran and Syria.

I watched him ramp up cold war aggressions against Russia and pave the way to the war in Ukraine.

I watched him assassinate Soleimani and shred the Iran deal.

I watched him lock up Assange.

I watched him veto attempts to save Yemen.

I listened to him say "We're taking the oil" in Syria.

I watched him starve Venezuelans to death while staging the most transparent foreign coup attempt in history.

I watched him appoint bloodthirsty PNAC neocons like Elliott Abrams and John motherfucking Bolton to high positions within the US murder machine.

I listened to Mike Pompeo say they're squeezing Iranian civilians with starvation sanctions in the hope that it will spark a civil war.

I listened to Rex Tillerson brag about boats full of dead North Koreans washing up on Japan's shores because US sanctions had successfully starved them to death.

I watched him shamelessly facilitate agendas that had long been promoted by the worst neocons and war whores in Washington while you dopes who are now asking me "why don't you support Trump?" were letting Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson tell you how to think.

I don't support Trump because I spent four years of my life staring right at the administration he was running and writing about what I saw unfiltered by the lens of party politics instead of letting a bunch of asshole pundits confirm my biases for me like you did. That's the one and only reason we see him differently.
9:04 AM · Sep 10, 2024
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[Verv]

The oligarchy wins BIG when Republicans are elected. Reagan, Bush, Trump. They get massive tax cuts and their corporations deregulated. They donate hundreds of billions to get them elected. That doesn’t happen with Democrats. Biden would have already raised taxes only on people making over $400,000 if not blocked by Republicans. Or take healthcare where Republicans voted about 50 times to repeal Obamacare. The oligarchy hates Obamacare, because it makes them subsidize healthcare for poor people and millions of others. How horrible! Or take environmental protection, abortion, gun control, etc. on down the list.

That is not a lie - the oligarchy does win big when typical Republicans are elected, and it is the case that certain sectors of the oligarchy also win big with Trump. It's undeniable.

"That doesn't happen with Democrats" is a very silly statement, so much so that I do not think it has to be explained why the corporate leftoids have never been hurt by big business Democrats.

It is also noteworthy that many believe Obamacare was written so poorly by the administration specifically so it could be repealed.

We do have democracy, and many who deny it are either ignorant or like Trump trying to destroy it by saying elections are rigged, or don’t matter. They matter a lot in many ways for both the oligarchs and the rest of us.

I think you are being too hard on all the leftists who taught me this important lesson.

I know you are a very conservative guy, but this kind of blind adherence to capital is a bit much for someone who fancies themselves a progressive.

The Republicans could do a lot more of Project 25 if Trump wins control of House and Senate in 2024. But he can do a lot of damage by executive orders. And don’t kid yourself that he won’t do it when he says he’s going to prosecute his political enemies, especially with the Trumpster Supreme Court giving him absolute immunity for the crime. He doesn’t give a damn about the Bill of Rights, and will surround himself with people who will dutifully do what he wants.

On Second Amendment, I take the standard liberal position. But I also agree with Thomas Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence!

I do not understand this Project 2025 thing...

... I also do not understand the concept that Trump is actually shredding the Bill of Rights, particularly when it comes from people who believe that hate speech isn't free speech. IDK. I do not know how much I am contributing to the thread with this interaction - perhaps just address my accusation that you are a conservative for believing capital does not undermine the democratic process in the United States. That is perhaps the only line from this post worth either of our time.

[Verv]

Ever since this recent Supreme Court ruling , the President has been afforded a virtual cart blanche . And while I as a pacificist am opposed to initiating violence , even to further social progress , as a centrist Marxist , I do stand by the right of revolution , preferably a nonviolent revolution though .

What decisions were problematic in particular..? I don't really understand your perspective on this.

[Verv]

The consent of the courts is irrelevant if the executive chooses to ignore them. As for the loyalty of the US military. Trump can invoke the insurrection act for pretty much anything. He can deploy troops in the cities, which are liberal bastions, and the rural MAGA morons will be absolutely thrilled. It's their wet dream. Hence I would not expect much political push-back from the Republicans. The more the violence escalates, the better for Trump. Blue state governors could refuse to hand over their national guards to Trump, but that is akin to a civil war as well.

This is some of the most insane content I've seen posted...

Trump himself tolerated the rights of states to allow portions of their cities to become staging grounds for continuous BLM marches and protests after the George Floyd incident.

He even allowed Michigan and other locations to take draconian actions during COVID-19 that curtailed the rights of average Americans...

Where was the tyranny from Trump?

I do not even begin to understand the idea that you would think he could or would command the US military to brutalize regular Americans, lol, and that the US military would just go along with it... These are both insane suggestions, and you talk about them as if they are going to happen.

This is the sort of chatter I expect from a schizoid on a crowded subway, tbh.

I think there's a decent chance something like this will go down. Maybe not 50%, but not 1% either.

The billionaire financiers, the collective media minus "faux news," the Deep State... You think all of these would be able to be outflanked by a single President who lost the popular vote but won the electoral cycle just arbitrarily deciding to suspend the Constitution?

Nah, never.

And that's not the only reason that he is not going to do it - he believes in the Bill of Rights.

Yawn. Nonsense.

I understand conservaives would reject this - it's fine. I appreciate the logic and used to think that way myself.

[wat0n]

Kamala Harris has thrown the troll bait but Trump hasn't fallen for it just yet. If he does, she wins IMHO. She needs him to look as unhinged as possible but he seems to have stuck to the script.

[wat0n]

Now that the debate ended, Trump's answer on Ukraine was pathetically weak, sounded like a total bitch. Like Neville Chamberlain.

[JohnRawls]

Debate watchers said, 63% to 37%, that Harris turned in a better performance onstage in Philadelphia. Prior to the debate, the same voters were evenly split on which candidate would perform more strongly, with 50% saying Harris would do so and 50% that Trump would. And afterward, 96% of Harris supporters who tuned in said that their chosen candidate had done a better job, while a smaller 69% majority of Trump’s supporters credited him with having a better night.

Trump was a clown but not to the degree I thought he would be. So I guess yes and no? But then again, Biden vs Trump was 63 to 37% in Trumps favour and this is 63% to 37% in to Harrises.

[Verv]

Trump was a clown but not to the degree I thought he would be. So I guess yes and no? But then again, Biden vs Trump was 63 to 37% in Trumps favour and this is 63% to 37% in to Harrises.

I think that this is largely from the fact that the left had extremely low expectations going into this.

Trump was not really bested - I can count two points where I felt he was weak, but overall, he controlled the debate, so much so it felt like he was bullying the moderators at points (lol).

I assume they are finding tepid Republicans who would rather be voting for Mitt Romney or some shit who are like, "Oh dear, Trump said that the last election was stolen, that made me uncomfortable..." to weigh in as the Republican viewers.

Early in the debate, I saw a very liberal British friend remark that he was disappointed with Harris, which seems about right. While Trump looked brooding & angry at points, Harris looked shellshocked after some of the immigration exchanges.

@wat0n 's comments show that there really is a group of people who think that showing strength on foreign policy is agreeing to toss in another hundred billion dollars to the losing side of a war.

The only people who really, truly want this in their heart of hearts and have enough of an informed opinion on it are the contractors who will be bathing in that money.

[JohnRawls]

I think that this is largely from the fact that the left had extremely low expectations going into this.

Trump was not really bested - I can count two points where I felt he was weak, but overall, he controlled the debate, so much so it felt like he was bullying the moderators at points (lol).

I assume they are finding tepid Republicans who would rather be voting for Mitt Romney or some shit who are like, "Oh dear, Trump said that the last election was stolen, that made me uncomfortable..." to weigh in as the Republican viewers.

Early in the debate, I saw a very liberal British friend remark that he was disappointed with Harris, which seems about right. While Trump looked brooding & angry at points, Harris looked shellshocked after some of the immigration exchanges.

@wat0n 's comments show that there really is a group of people who think that showing strength on foreign policy is agreeing to toss in another hundred billion dollars to the losing side of a war.

The only people who really, truly want this in their heart of hearts and have enough of an informed opinion on it are the contractors who will be bathing in that money.

British politics are overall more lefter, obviously your friend would be disappointed with Harris.

Foreign policy is more or less irrelevant for US elections, that is not news. And its irrelevant both ways by the way. What is relevant as you mentioned are internal US stuff like Trump claiming the election was rigged and having shitty ideas about the economy.

[Verv]

British politics are overall more lefter, obviously your friend would be disappointed with Harris.

Foreign policy is more or less irrelevant for US elections, that is not news. And its irrelevant both ways by the way. What is relevant as you mentioned are internal US stuff like Trump claiming the election was rigged and having shitty ideas about the economy.

Which economic ideas she failed to adequately hit on - she simply cited the idea that the "experts" disagree, while he talked about how his own economy was far better than the current one.

My gripe would be pointing out that the lockdowns and unlimited money for staying home probably had a lot to do with the inflation.

I think his ideas about tariffs are wonderful negotiating tools, and I am surprised he did not emphasize this.

As far as foreign policy goes, I've actually been shocked... I thought that it was a slog for the US to convince the world to go into Iraq, but then I realized in retrospect that it was not a matter of convincing much of anyone. The Ukraine war and the unconditional support for Israel are just things we do, and whichever party is out of power pretends to have reservations about it for a few months and then we are consolidated behind the Military Industrial Complex.

[JohnRawls]

Which economic ideas she failed to adequately hit on - she simply cited the idea that the "experts" disagree, while he talked about how his own economy was far better than the current one.

My gripe would be pointing out that the lockdowns and unlimited money for staying home probably had a lot to do with the inflation.

I think his ideas about tariffs are wonderful negotiating tools, and I am surprised he did not emphasize this.

As far as foreign policy goes, I've actually been shocked... I thought that it was a slog for the US to convince the world to go into Iraq, but then I realized in retrospect that it was not a matter of convincing much of anyone. The Ukraine war and the unconditional support for Israel are just things we do, and whichever party is out of power pretends to have reservations about it for a few months and then we are consolidated behind the Military Industrial Complex.

Cool and all but experts are the people who you should ask. Sure mistakes were done before but not doing them also had severe consequences. But the main problem for Trump is that his ideas are totally insane like the tariffs that will increase inflation even further and will be a tax on the people and a subsidy to US corporations.

Anyways, 67 to 33 in Harris favour according to independent polling institutions seems pretty bad for Trump. May be he did come out as a real clown although I didn't see anything special in the snippets. (I had more important things to do than watch the whole debate - sleep)