[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

There are a tremendous amount of things that are quite real, but usually we only sense them by their effects, not the things themselves.

As it is, there is ample evidence of Plasma as another state of matter, things operating on various bands of the electromagnetic spectrum we barely perceive or understand. And even the unbelieving scientists out there say that a stage IV level on the Kardashev scale civilization would be so advanced that if we did notice then we'd have no more understanding of them than an ant does of a human.

You have a soul. There is a God or gods ( some think) The Truth can be known, by revelation.This sub forum was designed for people who believe and who could discuss more further than that at a minimum but on that foundation. I believe everyone knows at least that much in their heart at least whether they admit it or not.

Yes, I understand and agree with all those comments.

I am just trying to understand how you think about substance. If two entities are in the same category, they must both have in common the quality that defines the category. Dogs and cats are both mammals by the definition of mammal. I know that definition. Your lungs and your soul are both substance by your definition of substance, but I don’t know that definition.

[annatar1914]

Yes, I understand and agree with all those comments.

I am just trying to understand how you think about substance. If two entities are in the same category, they must both have in common the quality that defines the category. Dogs and cats are both mammals by the definition of mammal. I know that definition. Your lungs and your soul are both substance by your definition of substance, but I don’t know that definition.

@Hakeer :

Substance or Matter, could be defined as a form of particular dimensions that occupies space and possesses a contingent being (because created beings would not have a self sustaining existence all of their own).

A tree and a human being and an angel would fit that description from what I'm saying

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Substance or Matter, could be defined as a form of particular dimensions that occupies space and possesses a contingent being (because created beings would not have a self sustaining existence all of their own).

A tree and a human being and an angel would fit that description from what I'm saying

By dimensions, do you mean height,width,length OR something else?
Give me an example of a created being.

[annatar1914]

By dimensions, do you mean height,width,length OR something else?
Give me an example of a created being.

@Hakeer :

By Dimensions, I mean things like height and length and width, and higher.

By created, meaning a being that has an origin in time back up to a point when they do not exist in any form. And non self creating of course, requiring another being in a chain of being for their particular existence

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

By Dimensions, I mean things like height and length and width, and higher.

By created, meaning a being that has an origin in time back up to a point when they do not exist in any form. And non self creating of course, requiring another being in a chain of being for their particular existence

I understand height,width,length, but what do you mean “and higher”?

I think I understand created being now and want to come back to that later in connection to the creation of souls.

But first, what is a “contingent being” definition?

[annatar1914]

I understand height,width,length, but what do you mean “and higher”?

I think I understand created being now and want to come back to that later in connection to the creation of souls.

But first, what is a “contingent being” definition?

Beings existing in higher than the 3 dimensional space of length, height, and width.

With creation of souls, refer back for context in discussion with me on Traducianism.

A contingent being is created and has existence maintained or destroyed by other physical forces, as opposed to a necessary being which would not.

[Hakeer]

Beings existing in higher than the 3 dimensional space of length, height, and width.

With creation of souls, refer back for context in discussion with me on Traducianism.

A contingent being is created and has existence maintained or destroyed by other physical forces, as opposed to a necessary being which would not.

So, going back to the main definition of substance, do beings on higher dimension(?) occupy space and possess contingent beings?

[annatar1914]

So, going back to the main definition of substance, do beings on higher dimension(?) occupy space and possess contingent beings?

Of course. But our limited perception of them would be entirely dependent on their will and activities.

It would be similar to the perceptions of the people in Flatland who occupied 2 dimensions of space and then experienced the activity of beings who were in 3 dimensional space:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

[Hakeer]

Of course. But our limited perception of them would be entirely dependent on their will and activities.

It would be similar to the perceptions of the people in Flatland who occupied 2 dimensions of space and then experienced the activity of beings who were in 3 dimensional space:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

We have it in science fiction like the Xindi who were helping beings from another dimension transform our space so that they could move into our universe and destroy every other species.

[annatar1914]

We have it in science fiction like the Xindi who were helping beings from another dimension transform our space so that they could move into our universe and destroy every other species.

@Hakeer :

Some time back on this thread, @Godstud , @Potemkin , and @Verv , and I discussed the ramifications of the modern age on spirituality and religion. More specifically the near universal belief today in extraterrestrial life and civilizations on other worlds.

The point I made wasn't whether any of these beliefs were true or not, but that a religious system of belief that did accommodate these speculations would be quite popular and prepared for events in the modern era as time goes on.

It's reasonable to discuss the new mythology in this new age, how it fits here, and if it's true or not.

I suggested as a possibility an gradual explosion in growth for Mormonism, parallel and intertwined with the " Americanization" of the world and the need for a Western Imperium to have a modicum of spiritual " legitimacy" and of civic religion. This or some variety of Roman Catholicism, or a syncretic amalgam of beliefs.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Some time back on this thread, @Godstud , @Potemkin , and @Verv , and I discussed the ramifications of the modern age on spirituality and religion. More specifically the near universal belief today in extraterrestrial life and civilizations on other worlds.

The point I made wasn't whether any of these beliefs were true or not, but that a religious system of belief that did accommodate these speculations would be quite popular and prepared for events in the modern era as time goes on.

It's reasonable to discuss the new mythology in this new age, how it fits here, and if it's true or not.

I suggested as a possibility an gradual explosion in growth for Mormonism, parallel and intertwined with the " Americanization" of the world and the need for a Western Imperium to have a modicum of spiritual " legitimacy" and of civic religion. This or some variety of Roman Catholicism, or a syncretic amalgam of beliefs.

I actually discussed aliens once with a Ph.D Catholic theologian. She said, “ A Christian is free to believe anything you want that doesn’t contradict the Bible.” As far as I know, there is nothing in the Bible that says intelligent aliens don’t exist. But if they believe in God and don’t look like humans, it does create a problem for anthropomorphic conceptions of God. Did you guys talk about that?

[annatar1914]

I actually discussed aliens once with a Ph.D Catholic theologian. She said, “ A Christian is free to believe anything you want that doesn’t contradict the Bible.” As far as I know, there is nothing in the Bible that says intelligent aliens don’t exist. But if they believe in God and don’t look like humans, it does create a problem for anthropomorphic conceptions of God. Did you guys talk about that?

@Hakeer :

I'm showing my particularity here, but I have as an Orthodox Christian a problem with " degrees" in " theology". The experience of God is personal and experiential, and isn't something that lends itself to dry dusty philosophical academic discussion.

All that aside, I don't think as I might recall that we delved too deeply into the anthropocentric difficulties posed by exterrestrial life/alien contact. My concerns are a bit different but radically " pre modern", you might say. But really there's nothing new under the sun. Along those lines, I'd like to quote Saint Augustine in his " City of God":

Book 16

Chapter 8

It is also asked whether we are to believe that certain monstrous races of men, spoken of in secular history, have sprung from Noah’s sons, or rather, I should say, from that one man from whom they themselves were descended. For it is reported that some have one eye in the middle of the forehead; some, feet turned backwards from the heel; some, a double sex, the right breast like a man, the left like a woman, and that they alternately beget and bring forth: others are said to have no mouth, and to breathe only through the nostrils; others are but a cubit high, and are therefore called by the Greeks “Pigmies:” they say that in some places the women conceive in their fifth year, and do not live beyond their eighth. So, too, they tell of a race who have two feet but only one leg, and are of marvellous swiftness, though they do not bend the knee: they are called Skiopodes, because in the hot weather they lie down on their backs and shade themselves with their feet. Others are said to have no head, and their eyes in their shoulders; and other human or quasi-human races are depicted in mosaic in the harbor esplanade of Carthage, on the faith of histories of rarities. What shall I say of the Cynocephali, whose dog-like head and barking proclaim them beasts rather than men? But we are not bound to believe all we hear of these monstrosities . But whoever is anywhere born a man, that is, a rational, mortal animal, no matter what unusual appearance he presents in color, movement, sound, nor how peculiar he is in some power, part, or quality of his nature, no Christian can doubt that he springs from that one protoplast. We can distinguish the common human nature from that which is peculiar, and therefore wonderful.

The same account which is given of monstrous births in individual cases can be given of monstrous races. For God, the Creator of all, knows where and when each thing ought to be, or to have been created, because He sees the similarities and diversities which can contribute to the beauty of the whole. But He who cannot see the whole is offended by the deformity of the part, because he is blind to that which balances it, and to which it belongs. We know that men are born with more than four fingers on their hands or toes on their feet: this is a smaller matter; but far from us be the folly of supposing that the Creator mistook the number of a man’s fingers, though we cannot account for the difference. And so in cases where the divergence from the rule is greater. He whose works no man justly finds fault with, knows what He has done. At Hippo-Diarrhytus there is a man whose hands are crescent-shaped, and have only two fingers each, and his feet similarly formed. If there were a race like him, it would be added to the history of the curious and wonderful. Shall we therefore deny that this man is descended from that one man who was first created? As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy. For no one ever called them Hermaphroditesses. Some years ago, quite within my own memory, a man was born in the East, double in his upper, but single in his lower half—having two heads, two chests, four hands, but one body and two feet like an ordinary man; and he lived so long that many had an opportunity of seeing him. But who could enumerate all the human births that have differed widely from their ascertained parents? As, therefore, no one will deny that these are all descended from that one man, so all the races which are reported to have diverged in bodily appearance from the usual course which nature generally or almost universally preserves, if they are embraced in that definition of man as rational and mortal animals, unquestionably trace their pedigree to that one first father of all. We are supposing these stories about various races who differ from one another and from us to be true; but possibly they are not: for if we were not aware that apes, and monkeys, and sphinxes are not men, but beasts, those historians would possibly describe them as races of men, and flaunt with impunity their false and vainglorious discoveries. But supposing they are men of whom these marvels are recorded, what if God has seen fit to create some races in this way, that we might not suppose that the monstrous births which appear among ourselves are the failures of that wisdom whereby He fashions the human nature, as we speak of the failure of a less perfect workman? Accordingly, it ought not to seem absurd to us, that as in individual races there are monstrous births, so in the whole race there are monstrous races.Wherefore, to conclude this question cautiously and guardedly, either these things which have been told of some races have no existence at all; or if they do exist, they are not human races; or if they are human, they are descended from Adam

That is, not real, or Animals, or some kind of human (which is a rational mortal animal) which are all descendants of one Man no matter how divergent they are now from his original form. Or Angel, a rational and immortal being.

[Hakeer]

Expanding the definition of “man” to include reptiles doesn’t completely address the problem. Would they need to be “redeemed” just like humans on planet Earth? What if God appeared on their planet looking like one of them and was welcomed by all instead of crucified? That would conflict with whole doctrine of original sin, need for Jesus to die for our redemption, etc. That’s only one of many theological questions the aliens would possibly present.

[annatar1914]

Expanding the definition of “man” to include reptiles doesn’t completely address the problem. Would they need to be “redeemed” just like humans on planet Earth? What if God appeared on their planet looking like one of them and was welcomed by all instead of crucified? That would conflict with whole doctrine of original sin, need for Jesus to die for our redemption, etc. That’s only one of many theological questions the aliens would possibly present.

@Hakeer :

Where is " reptiles" included?

So far, I'm placing " Aliens", as in fallen non human mortals possessed of a rational soul, in the speculative category, because I only know that we alone suffered a type of anthropological catastrophe.

If we saw such a being living here in this world, no matter how strange, we should probably conclude with St Augustine that they are human beings.

There's a larger issue involved with this, I'll try to bring it more. The issues raised are important ones.

I believe that all of Modernity and it's ideological constructs have been converging to this point, where and when people are (or should be!) asking questions. Honestly, I don't think people are, they are just believing whatever they are being spoon fed today.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Where is " reptiles" included?

So far, I'm placing " Aliens", as in fallen non human mortals possessed of a rational soul, in the speculative category, because I only know that we alone suffered a type of anthropological catastrophe.

If we saw such a being living here in this world, no matter how strange, we should probably conclude with St Augustine that they are human beings.

There's a larger issue involved with this, I'll try to bring it more. The issues raised are important ones.

I believe that all of Modernity and it's ideological constructs have been converging to this point, where and when people are (or should be!) asking questions. Honestly, I don't think people are, they are just believing whatever they are being spoon fed today.

I didn’t mean reptiles literally. I meant intelligent reptile-looking creatures. I was more interested about whether they are still redeemed if God appears to them without them going through the same thing as humans with original sin, crucifiction, etc. on their planet. On there planet, God appeared and hypothetically was welcomed by all.

[annatar1914]

I didn’t mean reptiles literally. I meant intelligent reptile-looking creatures. I was more interested about whether they are still redeemed if God appears to them without them going through the same thing as humans with original sin, crucifiction, etc. on their planet. On there planet, God appeared and hypothetically was welcomed by all.

@Hakeer :

I know that this is the immediate thing that comes to mind with modern Christians, I remember asking that myself.

But what has to be established, or un-established actually, is the assumption that " aliens" exist. Beings might exist, that's true, but saying that they're " extraterrestrial" could be a categorical error.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

I know that this is the immediate thing that comes to mind with modern Christians, I remember asking that myself.

But what has to be established, or un-established actually, is the assumption that " aliens" exist. Beings might exist, that's true, but saying that they're " extraterrestrial" could be a categorical error.

Well, you can’t prove they don’t exist. They could be living in a parallel universe.

We don’t know how difficult it is for life to emerge on other planets, but the universe is incredibly large, so a case can be reasonably argued either way by cosmologists.

[annatar1914]

Well, you can’t prove they don’t exist. They could be living in a parallel universe.
@Hakeer :

We don’t know how difficult it is for life to emerge on other planets, but the universe is incredibly large, so a case can be reasonably argued either way by cosmologists.

I believe that this is a set of epistemological problems, again coming from the rise of Modernity. That being said, id like to invite the others who I originally discussed this with to comment as seems fair:

@Potemkin , @Potemkin , , @Political Interest, and @Godstud

Id say personally that should any " aliens" or Extraterrestrial " beings be found, they will have a human origin on this world, if they happen to be genuine mortal creatures with rational souls. In other words, they won't be Aliens or Extraterrestrial.

[Hakeer]

I believe that this is a set of epistemological problems, again coming from the rise of Modernity. That being said, id like to invite the others who I originally discussed this with to comment as seems fair:

@Potemkin , @Potemkin , , @Political Interest, and @Godstud

Id say personally that should any " aliens" or Extraterrestrial " beings be found, they will have a human origin on this world, if they happen to be genuine mortal creatures with rational souls. In other words, they won't be Aliens or Extraterrestrial.

They would have to have been on Earth in prehistoric times, or else we would have historical written textual evidence they were here. Then, they built a spaceship that could fly light years in minutes like on Startrek. Or else they came here from outer space and some decided to stay on Earth, but that also does not conform to the Bible.

[annatar1914]

They would have to have been on Earth in prehistoric times, or else we would have historical written textual evidence they were here. Then, they built a spaceship that could fly light years in minutes like on Startrek. Or else they came here from outer space and some decided to stay on Earth, but that also does not conform to the Bible.

@Hakeer :

Come on, I'm trying to have a serious conversation with you here, and you're replying with science fiction tropes and scenarios straight out of " ancient aliens"....

Which is to say: do you really believe that, as in a religious system type of belief? Because I can discuss that reasonably, if you're not trolling.

Recall that one definition of religion might be said to be: " a system of organized belief that claims to have define and revealed answers to issues of ultimate and universal concern".

What's your religion, if any?