[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Come on, I'm trying to have a serious conversation with you here, and you're replying with science fiction tropes and scenarios straight out of " ancient aliens"....

Which is to say: do you really believe that, as in a religious system type of belief? Because I can discuss that reasonably, if you're not trolling.

Recall that one definition of religion might be said to be: " a system of organized belief that claims to have define and revealed answers to issues of ultimate and universal concern".

What's your religion, if any?

My understanding is that you are saying that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe they had human origin on Earth. Logically, that means they originated here long ago and traveled lights years to their current location. Otherwise, they originated there and came here prehistorically. I don’t see another way it could be possible.

Do I have to accept your definition of religion? I am not an atheist. But I don’t claim to have all the answers. I think I told you I am no longer a Christian.

[annatar1914]

My understanding is that you are saying that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe they had human origin on Earth. Logically, that means they originated here long ago and traveled lights years to their current location. Otherwise, they originated there and came here prehistorically. I don’t see another way it could be possible.

Do I have to accept your definition of religion? I am not an atheist. But I don’t claim to have all the answers. I think I told you I am no longer a Christian.

@Hakeer :

What I am saying is that time will show eventually, even after a " definitive contact", that without-human-origin mortal beings with rational souls do not in fact exist, anywhere. It's a powerfully seductive delusion of the modern era but delusional nonetheless.

Any other logical categories of being will be, or already are, shown to exist.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

What I am saying is that time will show eventually, even after a " definitive contact", that without-human-origin mortal beings with rational souls do not in fact exist, anywhere. It's a powerfully seductive delusion of the modern era but delusional nonetheless.

Any other logical categories of being will be, or already are, shown to exist.

I can’t imagine any reason why intelligent life could not have evolved elsewhere in the universe. That is not a delusional belief. What is delusional is the idea that they certainly exist or certainly do not exist. As the song line goes, people believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest.

[annatar1914]

I can’t imagine any reason why intelligent life could not have evolved elsewhere in the universe. That is not a delusional belief. What is delusional is the idea that they certainly exist or certainly do not exist. As the song line goes, people believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest.

@Hakeer :

You stated it yourself, that you " cannot imagine it".

Ask yourself honestly, why is that? Make that mental mind experiment. Think out there not being Aliens of the kind everyone weirdly expects....

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

You stated it yourself, that you " cannot imagine it".

Ask yourself honestly, why is that? Make that mental mind experiment. Think out there not being Aliens of the kind everyone weirdly expects....

You are correct. I can imagine it. What I should have said is that I have no conclusive evidence that they exist or do not exist. But if there is intelligent life that evolved independently elsewhere in the universe, and they are God-loving creatures, is there room in the Christian tent for salvation of their souls if God appeared to them and was welcomed by all, rather than being crucified for redemption from their original sin, etc. just like humans on Earth in Christian theology?

[annatar1914]

You are correct. I can imagine it. What I should have said is that I have no conclusive evidence that they exist or do not exist. But if there is intelligent life that evolved independently elsewhere in the universe, and they are God-loving creatures, is there room in the Christian tent for salvation of their souls if God appeared to them and was welcomed by all, rather than being crucified for redemption from their original sin, etc. just like humans on Earth in Christian theology?

@Hakeer :

But then you are assuming three things instead of just one

1. That they evolved, or that even if they did that it works as some assume that it did here. It's a common assumption, that of an evolutionary mechanism, and that mechanism always in play everywhere.

2. An assumption that these beings fell, because if they didn't fall, they are immortal, death being the wages of sin.

3. And an assumption that Earth and human beings DON'T have a privileged and special place in the Cosmos, in the plans of the Creator.

A lot hinges on the near universal acceptance of most modern ideas being not just theories, but truth. A new priesthood and new dogmas for a new era.

I deny.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

But then you are assuming three things instead of just one

1. That they evolved, or that even if they did that it works as some assume that it did here. It's a common assumption, that of an evolutionary mechanism, and that mechanism always in play everywhere.

2. An assumption that these beings fell, because if they didn't fall, they are immortal, death being the wages of sin.

3. And an assumption that Earth and human beings DON'T have a privileged and special place in the Cosmos, in the plans of the Creator.

A lot hinges on the near universal acceptance of most modern ideas being not just theories, but truth. A new priesthood and new dogmas for a new era.

I deny.

1. The idea that intelligent life may have evolved elsewhere in the universe was just postulated to set up my theological question about their salvation. I was not asserting it as a statement of fact. Whether they evolved via the same process of mutation, adaptation, and natural selection as species on Earth or some other process operative in their region of the universe is immaterial.

2. I do assume they fell, or else there would be no need for their redemption. This gets deep into the matter of the soul. If they are intelligent enough to know and love God, does that mean they received a soul? Or are they like animal species on Earth? Cats and dogs never fall from grace because they never had it, but they are not immortal. There seems to be injustice in the idea that these aliens have discovered God, but still have no prospects for salvation.

3. It may be that God has granted special privileges only to humans and not to these aliens who love and worship God no less than humans. That would seem cruel and injust to me. If God created the universe just for humans, it certainly didn’t have to be this large!

To repeat, I have no conviction one way or the other whether intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. But if it does, there are theological questions to explore.

[Potemkin]

This book might be of interest. It explores exactly those theological questions.

[annatar1914]

This book might be of interest. It explores exactly those theological questions.

@Potemkin :

Indeed, it's a classic my friend. If you read what St Augustine of Hippo wrote, there's nothing really new about these questions, or the answers. Everything @Hakeer that you have said has the same answers whether it occurs here on Earth or out in the larger universe.

I personally believe that every rational but mortal beings we may or may not discover anywhere will be human, maybe quite different than anyone we've seen before but human nonetheless and originating from Adam right here on Earth ( any other origin theory for humans I believe is actually racist and I unequivocally reject it) .

In fact I'm pretty certain that they exist and have been mentioned in various legends for thousands of years. For our sakes, I dread any eventual contact with them.

I don't believe that non human rational mortals will be found to exist anywhere ever.

I believe that animals are necessarily limited for the purposes of this conversation.

I think that " fallen and immortal" falls into the category of demon, a follower of the Evil One, whereas " immortal and not fallen" would be beings known to us as angels. I do believe that these both have bodies of a sort and have genders, and use instruments and have use of modes of transportation when needed by them. These are not humans.

Whatever scenario plays out, I know that Truth isn't going to conflict with Truth, that conflict will resolve into a higher synthetic understanding where these and many other matters will be resolved.

Edit: @Potemkin , @Hakeer , @Verv , and @Godstud :

To me, the centre of all Creation is the Incarnate God-Man Jesus Christ. Without Him, I do not know anything: neither life nor death or true reality. And He Is The Jew.

Anything that detracts or diminishes from the Theandric and Anthropocentric centrality of Mankind, of the centrality of Earth as the cosmic battleground between Good and Evil, is simply wrong.

And indeed, everything in my worldview flows from that, including my Communism. Scientism, and Science Fiction, is the profane religious OPIATE of the atheistic Bourgeois world order, looking up to a desacralized fantasy of the Heavens for minds like unto their own, to take Imperialist Capitalism to the next level.

[Hakeer]

@Potemkin :

Indeed, it's a classic my friend. If you read what St Augustine of Hippo wrote, there's nothing really new about these questions, or the answers. Everything @Hakeer that you have said has the same answers whether it occurs here on Earth or out in the larger universe.

I personally believe that every rational but mortal beings we may or may not discover anywhere will be human, maybe quite different than anyone we've seen before but human nonetheless and originating from Adam right here on Earth ( any other origin theory for humans I believe is actually racist and I unequivocally reject it) .

In fact I'm pretty certain that they exist and have been mentioned in various legends for thousands of years. For our sakes, I dread any eventual contact with them.

I don't believe that non human rational mortals will be found to exist anywhere ever.

I believe that animals are necessarily limited for the purposes of this conversation.

I think that " fallen and immortal" falls into the category of demon, a follower of the Evil One, whereas " immortal and not fallen" would be beings known to us as angels. I do believe that these both have bodies of a sort and have genders, and use instruments and have use of modes of transportation when needed by them. These are not humans.

Whatever scenario plays out, I know that Truth isn't going to conflict with Truth, that conflict will resolve into a higher synthetic understanding where these and many other matters will be resolved.

Edit: @Potemkin , @Hakeer , @Verv , and @Godstud :

To me, the centre of all Creation is the Incarnate God-Man Jesus Christ. Without Him, I do not know anything: neither life nor death or true reality. And He Is The Jew.

Anything that detracts or diminishes from the Theandric and Anthropocentric centrality of Mankind, of the centrality of Earth as the cosmic battleground between Good and Evil, is simply wrong.

And indeed, everything in my worldview flows from that, including my Communism. Scientism, and Science Fiction, is the profane religious OPIATE of the atheistic Bourgeois world order, looking up to a desacralized fantasy of the Heavens for minds like unto their own, to take Imperialist Capitalism to the next level.

Okay, that's settled. Time to move on to the next topic.

I am curious how you see that relationship between the body and the soul. This has both theological and political significance in the current debate over IVF. Does an embryo have a soul? If so, where was that soul before the egg was fertilized? Does a woman commit murder by disposing of her extra embryos?

[annatar1914]

Okay, that's settled. Time to move on to the next topic.

I am curious how you see that relationship between the body and the soul. This has both theological and political significance in the current debate over IVF. Does an embryo have a soul? If so, where was that soul before the egg was fertilized? Does a woman commit murder by disposing of her extra embryos?

@Hakeer :

The way I see it, there is the denser material body, and then the soul, which would be an analog to the " Subtle Body" or " Light Body" of esoteric thinking:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtle_body

And you might recall that I said I was theologically a Traducian when it came to the transmission of the human soul via their parents as opposed to direct creation by God:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traducianism

So an embryonic human being would have a soul, yes.

I don't know about specific circumstances but the destruction of a physical human being is the destruction of a physical human being. One may dance around semantics but there it is.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

The way I see it, there is the denser material body, and then the soul, which would be an analog to the " Subtle Body" or " Light Body" of esoteric thinking:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtle_body

And you might recall that I said I was theologically a Traducian when it came to the transmission of the human soul via their parents as opposed to direct creation by God:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traducianism

So an embryonic human being would have a soul, yes.

I don't know about specific circumstances but the destruction of a physical human being is the destruction of a physical human being. One may dance around semantics but there it is.

So that leads to one more theological question and one political.

Does the human being get salvation and go to heaven?

Political: Should IVF be illegal and the woman charged with murder and go to prison for killing a person?

[annatar1914]

So that leads to one more theological question and one political.

Does the human being get salvation and go to heaven?

Political: Should IVF be illegal and the woman charged with murder and go to prison for killing a person?

@Hakeer :

Does what human being " get" salvation?

I know two things: God is merciful and loves mankind. And He has mercy on those He has mercy on, and judgement on others.

He shows the ways of life and of righteousness, and the ways that lead to wickedness and death.

I do not know who is graced with His enlightenment, nor do I even know if I have. But, I ask for that enlightenment and mercy because of the sinners I am the chiefest. Not just in what I have done but also what I have failed to do.

The second question is not one that can be answered in the manner I suspect you would have me answer it:

Because in this day and age I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Faithful and traditional Orthodox Christians are no doubt quite rare, so who am I to make the Gentiles of this Age do or not do anything?

God sees and judges, which is why we are in this new Dark Age, Dark not because of Barbarism and Christianity, but because of the dark lights of a perverted and devilish science and technology, without the mercy and solace and enlightenment of Truth even as an absolute concept:

" What is Truth?" Said Pilate and every Greco Roman philosopher, when Truth looked back at Pilate right square in the eyes....

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Does what human being " get" salvation?

I know two things: God is merciful and loves mankind. And He has mercy on those He has mercy on, and judgement on others.

He shows the ways of life and of righteousness, and the ways that lead to wickedness and death.

I do not know who is graced with His enlightenment, nor do I even know if I have. But, I ask for that enlightenment and mercy because of the sinners I am the chiefest. Not just in what I have done but also what I have failed to do.

The second question is not one that can be answered in the manner I suspect you would have me answer it:

Because in this day and age I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Faithful and traditional Orthodox Christians are no doubt quite rare, so who am I to make the Gentiles of this Age do or not do anything?

God sees and judges, which is why we are in this new Dark Age, Dark not because of Barbarism and Christianity, but because of the dark lights of a perverted and devilish science and technology, without the mercy and solace and enlightenment of Truth even as an absolute concept:

" What is Truth?" Said Pilate and every Greco Roman philosopher, when Truth looked back at Pilate right square in the eyes....

The person who died as an embryo raises questions. The embryo has no consciousness. That requires a functioning brain. But we do not know whether soul has consciousness. If so, it could become a Christian. Right? If not what happens to this person on Judgment Day? Do they go to heaven? You mentioned mercy but said nothing about justice, which I think would be important here. In a way, it is similar to asking what happens to people on Judgment Day who were born 5,000 years ago.

[annatar1914]

The person who died as an embryo raises questions. The embryo has no consciousness. That requires a functioning brain. But we do not know whether soul has consciousness. If so, it could become a Christian. Right? If not what happens to this person on Judgment Day? Do they go to heaven? You mentioned mercy but said nothing about justice, which I think would be important here.

@Hakeer :

Mercy and Justice are intertwined in the workings of Divine Providence, the All Good and Omniscient Mind of God. God owes us nothing, but the person did no wrong in life. God is free and with Him anything is possible.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Mercy and Justice are intertwined in the workings of Divine Providence, the All Good and Omniscient Mind of God. God owes us nothing, but the person did no wrong in life. God is free and with Him anything is possible.

That’s my point. I see no justice in condemning a person who did no wrong in life. However, the embryo person never became a Christian unless, as I said, we postulate that the person’s soul has consciousness and received the Holy Spirit. It gets theologically complicated if embryos have souls. And when they are resurrected, is the body an adult with a functioning brain?

[annatar1914]

That’s my point. I see no justice in condemning a person who did no wrong in life. However, the embryo person never became a Christian unless, as I said, we postulate that the person’s soul has consciousness and received the Holy Spirit. It gets theologically complicated if embryos have souls. And when they are resurrected, is the body an adult with a functioning brain?

@Hakeer :

Under one aspect, these questions and issues seem important. But in another they aren't, not really. They aren't truly Theological. Or really complicated.

That is to say, that in really experiencing God, one learns more to trust and hope in Him and not in vain questioning. He orders all things sweetly and in Him there is no darkness at all. What He does for us and for others, that is what is best.

As the Russian proverb goes: " opinion is the mother of suffering". In reality, we usually know the answers anyway I think. It's not a secret, like an occult knowledge, but instead it's coming to understand something better when one's time has come to accept and receive it in humility.

All these problems both collective and personal that we have stem from a lack of humility and an avoidance of suffering at any cost, literally.

[Potemkin]

All these problems both collective and personal that we have stem from a lack of humility and an avoidance of suffering at any cost, literally.

Quoted for truth.

[Hakeer]

@Hakeer :

Under one aspect, these questions and issues seem important. But in another they aren't, not really. They aren't truly Theological. Or really complicated.

That is to say, that in really experiencing God, one learns more to trust and hope in Him and not in vain questioning. He orders all things sweetly and in Him there is no darkness at all. What He does for us and for others, that is what is best.

As the Russian proverb goes: " opinion is the mother of suffering". In reality, we usually know the answers anyway I think. It's not a secret, like an occult knowledge, but instead it's coming to understand something better when one's time has come to accept and receive it in humility.

All these problems both collective and personal that we have stem from a lack of humility and an avoidance of suffering at any cost, literally.

I guess that wraps up this topic, too. I’ll wait for you to introduce the next.☺️

[annatar1914]

I guess that wraps up this topic, too. I’ll wait for you to introduce the next.☺️

@Hakeer , and @Potemkin , @Verv :

I've been thinking for some time about the Orthodox Christian theology of Sophia

https://images.app.goo.gl/er5krXEtATkiGJbD6

So I will be working on my next post for a couple days.