South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide - Page 112 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15326043
The fact that I addressed the general warning and my argument was quoted and then completely ignored shows that this is not an honest debate.

I will also nite that the quoted text also discussed this and that part of the text has also been ignored.

Consequently, the argument about a general warning can be dismissed.
#15326055
Will you finally explain why should one discount the fact that state practice is that general warnings like the one Israel gave are enough?

Also, Israel claimed that the attack targeted not just tunnels but also a commander. This would in turn be one of those circumstances as also described by the ICRC.

As the rule indicates, State practice considers that a warning is not required when circumstances do not permit, such as in cases where the element of surprise is essential to the success of an operation or to the security of the attacking forces or that of friendly forces.[16] Necessary speed of response is another consideration cited in practice as relevant to determining the feasibility of warnings.[17]
#15326102
Maybe, I am just showing that even general warnings are not always necessary. In this case, though, Israel had already given a general warning to the civilian population to evacuate - in line with state practice on the matter.

But you're right about something - I confused this attack with the attack at Jabaliya on October 31, where Israel did claim it targeted a commander who took part of the October 7 massacre.

Instead, it seems Israel attacked mainly infrastructure (tunnels) located under the towers.
#15326388
So no specific warning was given.

Still waiting for any evidence showing that there were extenuating circumstances for not giving any such general warning.

The claimed justification is that there were tunnels under the tower.

Now we should also be provided with evidence that there were tunnels under the tower.
#15326400
The claim that a general warning suffices is not written in the ICRC summary,

Instead, it states that the USA usually gives general warnings, “in order not to endanger the attacking forces or the success of their mission …[and can] consist of a blanket alert delivered by broadcast advising the civilian population to stay away from certain military objectives”.

There is no evidence that the residents of the towers were told to stay way from the tunnels, and there is no evidence that a specific warning would endanger the mission.

So even if we accept US practice as law, the IDF still failed to provide sufficient warning.

And once again, we cannot take the IDF’s claims at face value since they are currently being investigated by the ICJ for genocide and war crimes against the population of Gaza and therefore would be admitting guilt if they said anything except “tunnels”.

And please note that the mere presence of tunnels has been refuted as a justification for attacks by @wat0n and others.

To now claim that this is sufficient cause for an attack would ge to refute other previous arguments. Is this what you are arguing now?
#15326403
Pants-of-dog wrote:The claim that a general warning suffices is not written in the ICRC summary,

Instead, it states that the USA usually gives general warnings, “in order not to endanger the attacking forces or the success of their mission …[and can] consist of a blanket alert delivered by broadcast advising the civilian population to stay away from certain military objectives”.

There is no evidence that the residents of the towers were told to stay way from the tunnels, and there is no evidence that a specific warning would endanger the mission.

So even if we accept US practice as law, the IDF still failed to provide sufficient warning.


What was the mission Israel was trying to fulfill when it attacked those towers? This is not something you can learn solely from the bombing. The fact that Rimal is in northern Gaza City and that Israel entered Gaza by ground just 2 days after the bombing may have something to do with it.

Furthermore, how exactly can the civilians be away from the tunnels and remain in the buildings at the same time? The tunnels presumably were located under the towers. It's why they needed to evacuate the area.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And once again, we cannot take the IDF’s claims at face value since they are currently being investigated by the ICJ for genocide and war crimes against the population of Gaza and therefore would be admitting guilt if they said anything except “tunnels”.


The ICJ is only investigating genocide.

I also wonder, why would Israel just attack civilians for the sake of it? In reality, civilian deaths are not in Israel's interest (they definitely hamper the war effort). And indeed, we can see this has been the case as the Biden administration decided to restrict arms sales to Israel, and of course also from this bogus genocide charge itself which has also hampered Israel's war effort to some extent. There're also no prospects of annexing Gaza in the long term, given that it's clear Gazans are not leaving the strip en masse and no attempt was made to get them to do that.

Although we can also see people like you, who justify attacking civilians by claiming it's just "resistance" and unavoidable.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And please note that the mere presence of tunnels has been refuted as a justification for attacks by @wat0n and others.

To now claim that this is sufficient cause for an attack would ge to refute other previous arguments. Is this what you are arguing now?


Certainly hitting tunnels isn't enough of a justification by itself, hitting tunnels are are known to be out of commission and therefore unused for example would not justify this type of bombing. Whether the attack was justified on military grounds also depends on what or who was believed was inside those tunnels, what they were assessed to be used for, if such assessments were justified by the available intelligence and if there were alternative means to destroy them. And if you want to know if it was proportionate then you'll have to compare those assessments with the assessment of the expected damage to civilians (that is, how many civilians were assessed would be killed or otherwise harmed by the bombing of those tunnels).

Unfortunately, since the war is still ongoing, Israel has no reason to share any of that information and indeed doing so could also hamper its war effort and its intelligence sources. Hence, any spokesperson will just say that the decision was made according to protocol or something vague along those lines.

What I'd love to know though is how you concluded then that this attack did not target a military asset or that it was disproportionate. It seems you are just assuming Israelis are cartoonishly evil and just can't help themselves to do these things. And yet when one says that Hamas' massacre of October 7 was an evil act, you say that one is just assuming Hamas is cartoonishly evil even when its men literally filmed themselves massacring civilians and proudly shared it on social media.
#15326441
@wat0n

Give it a couple of months and with any luck Kamala wins the US election and it's fight, fight, fight. Half the army joins the MAGA and you are so distracted killing each other that you forget to give your bombs to Israel.


:lol:
#15326446
@wat0n

You have been posting the Zionists' bollocks justifying state terrorism and their atrocities for 112 pages.

Surely, I am allowed one comment to take the piss and lighten the mood.


:)


p.s. There will be no Civil War 2.0.

The typical American, much like the whinging Pom, has no balls (Bla bajd).
#15326459
The stated claim by the IDF and Israeli government was to attack tunnles beneath the towers.

To how claim this was preparation for the ground invasion would be contradictory to the claims made by the IDF and Israeli government. There would need to be some evidence for this to be an argument instead of baseless speculation.

And there was no mention of the tunnels in the general warning, thus making it impossible for civilians to know to stay away from them. Consequently, the general warning does not suffice according to the ICRC summary posted,

The reason the IDF and Israeli government are attacking residential towers is because they are conducting a genocide. There is no other plausible reason. This is why there are also plans to annex Gaza. The first step is to maintain a permanent military presence, such as the IDF and Israeli government are already demanding and doing. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/isra ... army-bases

And the only justification given has been the presence of tunnels. This is not a valid justification. Nor has there been any evidence presented of any other military advantage.

Consequently, this is clearly a war crime.
#15326463
Pants-of-dog wrote:The stated claim by the IDF and Israeli government was to attack tunnles beneath the towers.

To how claim this was preparation for the ground invasion would be contradictory to the claims made by the IDF and Israeli government. There would need to be some evidence for this to be an argument instead of baseless speculation.


How is it contradictory? This makes no sense. Destroying tunnels before a ground invasion is fairly logical and clearly confers a military advantage to the invader.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And there was no mention of the tunnels in the general warning, thus making it impossible for civilians to know to stay away from them. Consequently, the general warning does not suffice according to the ICRC summary posted,


It's unlikely Gazan civilians would know much about the tunnels, unless you believe they're complicit. Furthermore, the ICRC's website says explicitly state practice considers general warnings for civilians to evacuate an area that will be attacked to be enough.

Are you saying Gaza's civilians know where the tunnels are?

Pants-of-dog wrote:The reason the IDF and Israeli government are attacking residential towers is because they are conducting a genocide. There is no other plausible reason. This is why there are also plans to annex Gaza. The first step is to maintain a permanent military presence, such as the IDF and Israeli government are already demanding and doing. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/isra ... army-bases

And the only justification given has been the presence of tunnels. This is not a valid justification. Nor has there been any evidence presented of any other military advantage.

Consequently, this is clearly a war crime.


Whining about how tunnels are not a military asset, even though tunnels are known to be used as a route for troop and arms movements - is not enough to prove genocidal intent. In fact, you have yet to explain why would Israel even warn civilians if it wanted to exterminate them and why hasn't Israel facilitated the emigration of Gazans if the idea is to kick them out.

Also, your own source - which is just an unsubstantiated report - goes against the genocide claim. It would be unnecessary for the IDF to seek to occupy corridors within Gaza if it wanted to get rid of the civilian population. And "annexation" is nowhere to be found in your own source.
#15326509
Deutschmania wrote:I don't see how Israel can be considered to be humane , and I am finding it hard to even understand how the Zionists can even be human .

:lol: Seems like your Islamophillia is leading you to similar conclusions to the Nazis. It should be noted that the invitations for Waansee went out the day after Hitler's meeting with the Mufti.

Why don't they realize that whether or not the Palestinian population are children of Abraham and Sarah , they are still at the very least children of Adam and Eve , and therefore deserving of equal consideration of their rights to dignity and justice ?

The Bible teaches us that quite soon after the flood the population rebuilt, humanity ran out of lebensraum and there was a need for genocide. Note I'm not suggesting we should start genociding people in the modern day. Just that appealing to the Bible for "human rights" is absurd.

Can we just stop saying inhuman when we mean inbonabo. We humans are normal apes, not weird pacifistic deviants like Bonobos.
#15326512
@Rich

According to the AJC (American Jewish Committee), 20% of American Jews are anti-Zionists.

Are all these Jews Islamophiliac Nazi lovers and self-hating to boot?


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 06 Oct 2024 16:11, edited 2 times in total.
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