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User avatar
By Indi
#15326781
SpecialOlympian wrote:Indi, welcome to the forum. Also, you're wrong.

Which tax table is this from? Head of household? Single filer? Married filing jointly? You just pasted unreadable nonsense.

I actually have an understanding of the American tax code. Not perfect, but if you picked me for a "Man on the Street" local news interview I'd sound like a god damned accountant.

American billionaires are not forced to pay Social Security taxes beyond their first $168,000 of employment income. Yes, you read that right. A person can have billions and only be taxed for SSI contributions on the first $168,000 of any wages they receive from a multibillion dollar company they own. I want to stress "wages" and "employment income" there. They only pay up to that $168K amount if they actively work.

If someone just happens to be incredibly wealthy and lives on passive income through interest (like Hakeer, the bond king) or dividends then they don't contribute at all.

So Zuckerberg could pay himself $10 million a year to be CEO of FaceBook. And only 6.2% of what he makes on his first $168,000 helps fund Social Security. Which is a whopping $10,416. And that's fucking ridiculous. Facebook is a net negative to society, Zuckerberg has a bill to pay for every aging Boomer he turned into an insane person.

Zuckerberg could then agree to sell his share of the business for billions and not contribute to the Social Security fund at all. Then he can claim maximum Social Security income benefits because he was CEO for 20 years (I could bore with how you qualify for SSI but eh). Which, to him, would be a pittance. Not even enough to cover a restaurant bill.

And yes, I also think this is a very stupid way to run the tax system. It simply must be more punitive, and extremely so, for outliers and aberrations who gain so much more from society than they contribute.


What are you claiming I am wrong about?

The ONLY tax table, each individual with a gross income of more than $X would be required to file and pay an income tax.

Did you miss where the FICA tax and trust funds would cease to exist?
User avatar
By starman2003
#15326813
Hakeer wrote:If the Democrats ever again get full control of the government, they will raise the revenue from billionaires to do many things,


The democrats have been ascendant a few times in the several decades since the national debt began soaring and they never tamed it. The democrats can't raise taxes sufficiently not any more than republicans can cut spending massively if at all(neither Reagan nor even trump did this). Even if only the wealthier segment of society was targeted for taxation (not just billionaires) that could mean a critical loss of support in close elections.
Basically, the actual record argues against a solution within the framework of the present political system. It doesn't really matter who gets in, you just can't impose real sacrifice. You want a real solution--to this and other issues--get rid of democracy.
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326826
starman2003 wrote:The democrats have been ascendant a few times in the several decades since the national debt began soaring and they never tamed it. The democrats can't raise taxes sufficiently not any more than republicans can cut spending massively if at all(neither Reagan nor even trump did this). Even if only the wealthier segment of society was targeted for taxation (not just billionaires) that could mean a critical loss of support in close elections.
Basically, the actual record argues against a solution within the framework of the present political system. It doesn't really matter who gets in, you just can't impose real sacrifice. You want a real solution--to this and other issues--get rid of democracy.


No thanks. I don’t want to live under a damn dictator. Enjoy yours.

My tax model is along the lines of the northern European countries. There will always be inequalities, but they don’t have to be as extreme as we have in this country. It is an absolute disgrace.

You think Democrats can’t get anything done? How do you think we got Medicare, Medicaid,Social Security, Obamacare, The Civil Rights Act, The Voting Rights Act, etc. ? Republicans have fought to the death over all of them.

One of the strategies of the far-right is to demoralize Democrats into believing it is all hopeless and we might as well surender now to the autocrat. What is it the Borg tell their victims, “Resistance is futile.”?

I have a different vision. Trump and Trumpism will be defeated, beginning in November.
User avatar
By starman2003
#15326870
Hakeer wrote:No thanks. I don’t want to live under a damn dictator. Enjoy yours.


:lol: It's part of unfolding history, beyond the control of either of us.

You think Democrats can’t get anything done? How do you think we got Medicare, Medicaid,Social Security, Obamacare, The Civil Rights Act, The Voting Rights Act, etc. ?


Oh I don't doubt they got a lot done, i.e. things that are popular to the masses. What is not at all popular is cutting the spending programs no matter how vital to avoid bankruptcy; in this regard they can scarcely get anything done; the republicans are hardly better..

Republicans have fought to the death over all of them.


But even republican administrations have failed to slash them significantly if at all. And republicans are just as guilty for the mounting debt, by also doing what's popular--cutting taxes.


I have a different vision. Trump and Trumpism will be defeated, beginning in November.


I hate trump but democrats won't rectify the problem; what's need is basic change. We'll see that after the whole impotent system comes crashing down.
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326894
starman2003 wrote::lol: It's part of unfolding history, beyond the control of either of us.



Oh I don't doubt they got a lot done, i.e. things that are popular to the masses. What is not at all popular is cutting the spending programs no matter how vital to avoid bankruptcy; in this regard they can scarcely get anything done; the republicans are hardly better..



But even republican administrations have failed to slash them significantly if at all. And republicans are just as guilty for the mounting debt, by also doing what's popular--cutting taxes.




I hate trump but democrats won't rectify the problem; what's need is basic change. We'll see that after the whole impotent system comes crashing down.


You communists think capitalism is the problem. It is not. The problem is that one of our political parties is now corrupt and fascist in intent. It is extremely hard to get legislation through Congress, partly because of the way the Constitution is set up to PREVENT a dictatorship, but also because Congress has set up semi-dicatorship inside their own rules. The speaker of the House and the Senate majority leader should NEVER have as much power as they do. How about just running Congress as a DEMOCRACY? Even if Harris is elected, the Republican Senate will block everything just as McConnell did to Obama (including his Supreme Court nomination preserved for Trump).
#15326896
Hakeer wrote:You communists think capitalism is the problem. It is not.

Right: it is only a problem. And socialism is an even worse one.
The problem is that one of our political parties is now corrupt and fascist in intent. It is extremely hard to get legislation through Congress, partly because of the way the Constitution is set up to PREVENT a dictatorship, but also because Congress has set up semi-dicatorship inside their own rules. The speaker of the House and the Senate majority leader should NEVER have as much power as they do. How about just running Congress as a DEMOCRACY?

While the problem of the greedy, parasitic oligarchy suborning political corruption and promoting fascism is certainly bad in the USA, it is by no means absent in other capitalist economies, and is even worse in places like Russia, Brazil, and the Philippines.
Even if Harris is elected, the Republican Senate will block everything just as McConnell did to Obama (including his Supreme Court nomination preserved for Trump).

IMO people underestimate the degree to which Mitch McConnell delegitimized the USSC, and thereby the Constitution. He literally belongs in jail for what he did: refused to permit a vote on Garland's nomination because there were "only" 11 months left in Obama's presidency, then confirmed Barrett with just 3 months left in Trump's. One cannot overstate the despicable and treasonous character of such acts.
#15326897
Hakeer wrote:Trump and Trumpism will be defeated, beginning in November.

I wish I could be as optimistic. A week is a long time in politics, but from where I sit, appalling and terrifying as the prospect may be, Trump could still win.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#15326898
SpecialOlympian wrote:...it's adorable how Qatz's understanding of modernity and politics is so antiquated that...

...I kind of imagine Qatz like that but instead of shouting about Liberals he's angry at the witchcraft of moving pictures. ...


No one in this thread has proven that the West is not sinking into national bankruptcies. Most posters, like you Spesh, simply engaged in character attacks in order to change the subject.

This demonstrates that there is a class of people in the West that are responsible for this bankruptcy, and that this group will use propaganda distractions to "change the subject."

To see this tactic in action, here is a video about Guy Debord, where the interviewee - Vincent Kaufmann - spends the first 45 minutes of the video attacking Guy Debord's personality and background, and then spends the last two minutes talking about the content of his work.



What is Vincent Kaufmann trying to hide? The truth? That the media is controlled by the mafia, banksters, and media industry, and that he himself is part of this group?

Likewise, people who will profit from the USA's upcoming collapse... are always online defending the current political arrangement. (that would be you, Spesh, among others).
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326899
Truth To Power wrote:I wish I could be as optimistic. A week is a long time in politics, but from where I sit, appalling and terrifying as the prospect may be, Trump could still win.


If you read my posts on the election thread, I am very worried about PA. Nobody wins this election without PA and it’s still a statistical tie. But a defeatist attitude will lose every time.
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326909
QatzelOk wrote:No one in this thread has proven that the West is not sinking into national bankruptcies. Most posters, like you Spesh, simply engaged in character attacks in order to change the subject.

This demonstrates that there is a class of people in the West that are responsible for this bankruptcy, and that this group will use propaganda distractions to "change the subject."

To see this tactic in action, here is a video about Guy Debord, where the interviewee - Vincent Kaufmann - spends the first 45 minutes of the video attacking Guy Debord's personality and background, and then spends the last two minutes talking about the content of his work.



What is Vincent Kaufmann trying to hide? The truth? That the media is controlled by the mafia, banksters, and media industry, and that he himself is part of this group?

Likewise, people who will profit from the USA's upcoming collapse... are always online defending the current political arrangement. (that would be you, Spesh, among others).


The consensus among most economists (CBO, Wharton school, etc.) is that the national debt on its current trajectory is “unsustainable” after more than maybe another 20 years. Congress needs to get revenue=spending or better before then. There is no proof that will happen. People of my (boomer) generation can continue to selfishly “kick the can down the road”, knowing we will all be dead by the time our children and grandchildren will be dealing with this for the rest of the century. Or we could have a fascist dictator to protect the billionaire class and just trash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, etc. Fuck all the old people, poor people, and sick people. They are costing us too much money. The third alternative is for Congress to finally become fiscally responsible with the federal budget before it’s too late. I’m not giving up on that. We may go down, but not without a fight. The billionaire class created this debt with their massive tax cuts from Reagan, Bush, Trump. Let them pay for it.

I owe it to my granddaughters (ages 13 and 15).
Last edited by Hakeer on 11 Oct 2024 20:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15326911
Hakeer wrote:If you read my posts on the election thread, I am very worried about PA. Nobody wins this election without PA and it’s still a statistical tie. But a defeatist attitude will lose every time.

IMO there is an even more perilous attitude: complacency, which I am seeing too much of on the Democrat side. Just as one example, there seems to be little attention to the fact that Republican state governments have stripped thousands (millions?) of voters from the lists in heavily Democrat areas on the thinnest of pretexts. Those people need to make sure they are on the lists.
#15326912
QatzelOk wrote:No one in this thread has proven that the West is not sinking into national bankruptcies.

A country cannot go bankrupt by owing debts denominated in a currency it can issue at will.
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326951
Indi wrote:Yet many have.


He’s talking about monetizing the debt. Creditors get nearly worthless money. Inflation goes through the roof. The U.S. loses its status as the world’s reserve currency. And it wouldn’t lower the cost of Social Security or Medicare, because they are indexed to inflation.
User avatar
By Indi
#15326956
Hakeer wrote:He’s talking about monetizing the debt. Creditors get nearly worthless money. Inflation goes through the roof. The U.S. loses its status as the world’s reserve currency. And it wouldn’t lower the cost of Social Security or Medicare, because they are indexed to inflation.

Yes, I agree, and that's why I've suggested ending the FICA tax and changing the tax code to acquire adequate revenue, with rare exception, to fund all Federal spending with less need/cause of inflation.
User avatar
By starman2003
#15326958
Hakeer wrote:You communists think capitalism is the problem.


I am not a communist! I wasn't attacking capitalism just democracy.


Even if Harris is elected, the Republican Senate will block everything….


It won't block the bulk of costly social spending, largely responsible for the deficit.
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15326977
starman2003 wrote:I am not a communist! I wasn't attacking capitalism just democracy.




It won't block the bulk of costly social spending, largely responsible for the deficit.


You are not a communist? A fascist? Most authoritarian governments are one or the other.

The Republcans will fake (I hope) a government shutdown over the debt ceiling again. They will want Social Security and Medicare on the table as a bargaining chip.

What they will shutdown is any attempt to increase taxes one dime on billionaires, which means another big budget deficit. The national debt was pretty stable from WW2 to 1980. That is when Reagan arrived and Republicans started their tax cutting. That is what makes the social spending a budget problem. Go look at a historical graph on national debt....
https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/re ... 60&inline=
User avatar
By Hakeer
#15327003
Indi wrote:Yes, I agree, and that's why I've suggested ending the FICA tax and changing the tax code to acquire adequate revenue, with rare exception, to fund all Federal spending with less need/cause of inflation.


That would be OK with me so long as there is earmarks in the budget to protect Social security, Medicare, etc. to keep them in the mandatory rather than discretionary spending category. Old people and sick people need to know that money will be there, regardless which party controls Congress.
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