I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 107 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15326734
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

I'm reminded that there are really two countries in the Zionist project:



....And only one is going to make it. Only those who come to truly believe in the God of Israel will survive and even thrive in the years to come. This will happen but it'll take time with growing realization. Last ones standing in Israel will be people like the Arameans, the Jewish Messianics, among others.

I know that you're right of course about Islam, and this is the challenge everywhere. In fact it will be the pressure of that challenge that is moving things.


Wouldn’t a religious Zionist who follows the Torah as faithfully as Christians follow the Bible say he truly believes in the God of Israel? To an outside observer his belief appears parallel to yours and he may be just as hopeful confident about the future. Related to the bus metaphor, there could be three seats on the bus, not just two.
#15326735
Hakeer wrote:Wouldn’t a religious Zionist who follows the Torah as faithfully as Christians follow the Bible say he truly believes in the God of Israel? To an outside observer his belief appears parallel to yours and he may be just as hopeful confident about the future. Related to the bus metaphor, there could be three seats on the bus, not just two.


@Hakeer :

A " religious Zionist" could say anything really, but in the long term it will lead to either conversion or backwards into impotence and nullity if it is otherwise with them. And there will be no room for neutrality and compromises.

Increasingly, the Israeli state will have to rely on people who will actually fight for Israel, and it will be persons like Father Gabriel Naddaff and the Arameans I mentioned before, who are the remnant of the non Arabized Orthodox Christians of the Holy Land:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Naddaf



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans_in_Israel

But you're right: everyone else will surrender to Islam, or go this route as I believe many will.
#15326765
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

A " religious Zionist" could say anything really, but in the long term it will lead to either conversion or backwards into impotence and nullity if it is otherwise with them. And there will be no room for neutrality and compromises.

Increasingly, the Israeli state will have to rely on people who will actually fight for Israel, and it will be persons like Father Gabriel Naddaff and the Arameans I mentioned before, who are the remnant of the non Arabized Orthodox Christians of the Holy Land:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Naddaf



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans_in_Israel

But you're right: everyone else will surrender to Islam, or go this route as I believe many will.


The Jews are already fighting for Israel. If they weren’t, the country would have been wiped out long ago. I am curious about the psychological aspects of religion. In this case, why is it so hard for you to believe that a religious Zionist can believe just as fervently in the prophecy of the Torah as you are with the prophecy of the Bible and, therefore, be just as committed to fight and die for what he believes?
#15326786
Hakeer wrote:The Jews are already fighting for Israel. If they weren’t, the country would have been wiped out long ago. I am curious about the psychological aspects of religion. In this case, why is it so hard for you to believe that a religious Zionist can believe just as fervently in the prophecy of the Torah as you are with the prophecy of the Bible and, therefore, be just as committed to fight and die for what he believes?


@Hakeer :

The Torah is the Bible, although most Jews have used the Masorah as the Torah and Orthodox Christian Church uses the Septuagint.

As a believer in the God of Israel, I know that for victory one needs faith in the God of Israel, the King of Israel.

It's like the sacred oil found for Haunakah: it was there and potentially could be used, but until it was lit it couldn't be useful for illumination at all. And so it is with the Israelis. Most don't believe in God, or certainly don't put their trust in Him.

At least not yet
#15326790
Hakeer wrote:The Jews are already fighting for Israel. If they weren’t, the country would have been wiped out long ago. I am curious about the psychological aspects of religion. In this case, why is it so hard for you to believe that a religious Zionist can believe just as fervently in the prophecy of the Torah as you are with the prophecy of the Bible and, therefore, be just as committed to fight and die for what he believes?


How can you say Jews who follow the teaching of Judaism don’t believe and trust God as much as Christians? Why can’t you believe that they are as devout in their religion as you are in yours?
#15326793
Hakeer wrote:The fascist contagion is already here with Trump. He would destroy constitutional democracy in the U.S.


There is zero evidence of that anywhere - just really lame gross speculation sponsored by center left oligarchs horrified that their profits they rake in through collusion and warfare are threatened by him, plus their social libertinism.

But please, make the case.
#15326794
Verv wrote:There is zero evidence of that anywhere - just really lame gross speculation sponsored by center left oligarchs horrified that their profits they rake in through collusion and warfare are threatened by him, plus their social libertinism.

But please, make the case.


It’s already started. He can commit crimes giving unlawful orders through the DOJ and military and the Trump Supreme Court has declared that he has absolute immunity from criminal prosecution. I never thought that anything like this could happen in the U.S., but here we are. Project 2025 is a blueprint for completing the transition to autocracy. The people who wrote much of it were in the first Trump administration and will return for the second.
#15326795
Hakeer wrote:It’s already started. He can commit crimes giving unlawful orders through the DOJ and military and the Trump Supreme Court has declared that he has absolute immunity from criminal prosecution. I never thought that anything like this could happen in the U.S., but here we are. Project 2025 is a blueprint for completing the transition to autocracy. The people who wrote much of it were in the first Trump administration and will return for the second.


It's a gross misinterpretation of the SCOTUS decision which largely focused on his decision to declassify documents without drafting memoranda.

It does not protect him against actions which do not have a policy oriented nature, either, as there has been some legal work done on this prior to even the SCOTUS decision. Really, it was designed to protect the powers of the Executive branch from frivolous judicial action.

It's also worth noting that, in addition to it being the right conclusion, it will ultimately be a power largely exercised by leftist Democrats for the remainder of the century.

Even if Trump wins, the trajectory over the next 2 decades is that even places like Texas will turn blue, let alone swing states like Ohio & Pennsylvania. SCOTUS basically handed you a ruling that clarifies how Democrat Presidents will be able to have protection from frivolous Republican legal warfare throughout the 2030s and beyond.

The only thing that could actually be done to prevent total institutional capture by the center left is a large political crisis that tends to suck in tens of millions of people normally square in the DNC into the right wing, which... could actually be quite likely considering the nature of the economy and geopolitics, and is actually inevitable in the long-term considering the general failures of socialism, but yeah.

That's where we stand, I think.
#15326797
Verv wrote:It's a gross misinterpretation of the SCOTUS decision which largely focused on his decision to declassify documents without drafting memoranda.

It does not protect him against actions which do not have a policy oriented nature, either, as there has been some legal work done on this prior to even the SCOTUS decision. Really, it was designed to protect the powers of the Executive branch from frivolous judicial action.

It's also worth noting that, in addition to it being the right conclusion, it will ultimately be a power largely exercised by leftist Democrats for the remainder of the century.

Even if Trump wins, the trajectory over the next 2 decades is that even places like Texas will turn blue, let alone swing states like Ohio & Pennsylvania. SCOTUS basically handed you a ruling that clarifies how Democrat Presidents will be able to have protection from frivolous Republican legal warfare throughout the 2030s and beyond.

The only thing that could actually be done to prevent total institutional capture by the center left is a large political crisis that tends to suck in tens of millions of people normally square in the DNC into the right wing, which... could actually be quite likely considering the nature of the economy and geopolitics, and is actually inevitable in the long-term considering the general failures of socialism, but yeah.

That's where we stand, I think.


He can order any criminal action he wants and so long as it is an official act, he has absolute immunity to order illegal investigations of his political enemies, deport millions of immigrants illegally, and anything else he wants. In other words, act as an autocrat above the law.
#15326803
Hakeer wrote:He can order any criminal action he wants and so long as it is an official act, he has absolute immunity to order illegal investigations of his political enemies, deport millions of immigrants illegally, and anything else he wants. In other words, act as an autocrat above the law.


There's something really rich about you mentioning illegal investigations, lol, considering Trump's first term in office.

I also like how you mention how he'd theoretically deprot millions of immigrants, as if you can just confuse illegal immigrant with somoene legally present in the US on a valid visa as if this is a likelihood.

But yeah, I do see your concerns, but I do not actually think it would ever hold water for Trump to write a memorandum like

>My policy is to KILL OBAMA and to ILLEGALIZE GIVING MONEY TO THE DEMOCRATS..!
>My policy is to FORCE EVERY WOMAN TO DO A PREGNANCY TEST every time she BOARDS A PLANE or CROSSES STATE LINES..!

>Obama = dead
>DNC = finished
>Wamen=Pissing on sticks at airports
#15326805
Hakeer wrote:How can you say Jews who follow the teaching of Judaism don’t believe and trust God as much as Christians? Why can’t you believe that they are as devout in their religion as you are in yours?



@Hakeer :

Because that's what Christ Himself said, that's why:

" I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me
"

And furthermore:

" If you believed in Moses you would believe in Me, for he wrote of Me
"

It always amazes me, the amazement of Moderns who quite literally cannot comprehend someone who actually takes this seriously. I've written hundreds of posts on dozens of topics, but it all comes down to something Pascal wrote about Jesus Christ:

"Not only do we know God by Jesus Christ alone, but we know ourselves only by Jesus Christ. We know life and death only through Jesus Christ. Apart from Jesus Christ, we do not know what is our life, nor our death, nor God, nor ourselves."


I know that God if He so wills, prepares the heart for Himself to dwell therein, the personal temple of the Holy Spirit. Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

So back to Israel. I don't support Zionism, nor the modern state of Israel. Nor do I support the other side. What I do believe is that the day will come when they will collectively look upon Him Whom they pierced, and say at last: " blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord"

That takes preparation. And frankly acting as the Maccabees would for them would be a fairly good start.
Last edited by annatar1914 on 10 Oct 2024 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
#15326806
Verv wrote:There's something really rich about you mentioning illegal investigations, lol, considering Trump's first term in office.

I also like how you mention how he'd theoretically deprot millions of immigrants, as if you can just confuse illegal immigrant with somoene legally present in the US on a valid visa as if this is a likelihood.

But yeah, I do see your concerns, but I do not actually think it would ever hold water for Trump to write a memorandum like

>My policy is to KILL OBAMA and to ILLEGALIZE GIVING MONEY TO THE DEMOCRATS..!
>My policy is to FORCE EVERY WOMAN TO DO A PREGNANCY TEST every time she BOARDS A PLANE or CROSSES STATE LINES..!

>Obama = dead
>DNC = finished
>Wamen=Pissing on sticks at airports


You can have fun with your hypotheticals, but the fact is that Roberts puts no limit on what he can order so long as it is official, and the presumption is that anything in the gray area Trump shall prevail in court. Roberts puts the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove the act wasn’t official. It is truly legalizing autocracy, and I have no doubt he would use it same as any autocrat.
#15326807
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

Because that's what Christ Himself said, that's why:

"

And furthermore:

"

It always amazes me, the amazement of Moderns who quite literally cannot comprehend someone who actually takes this seriously. I've written hundreds of posts on dozens of topics, but it all comes down to something Pascal wrote about Jesus Christ:



I know that God if He so wills, prepares the heart for Himself to dwell therein, the personal temple of the Holy Spirit. Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

So back to Israel. I don't support Zionism, nor the modern state of Israel. Nor do I support the other side. What I do believe is that the day will come when they will collectively look upon Him Whom they pierced, and say at last: " blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord"

That takes preparation. And frankly acting as the Maccabees would for them is a fairly good start.


Do you not understand the question? Do you not believe it is possible that a Jew can hold his religious convictions with the same absolute certainty as you hold yours?
#15326812
And @Verv , @Potemkin :

Hakeer wrote:Do you not understand the question? Do you not believe it is possible that a Jew can hold his religious convictions with the same absolute certainty as you hold yours?


@Hakeer :

I do understand the question, in fact perhaps better than you do, unless it's the case that you simply don't like my answer. Because it's not I that answers it so completely, but Jesus Christ:

" ...If you had believed in Moses you would believe in Me, for he wrote of Me
".

How more clear of an answer does it have to be for you, that because of what Christ said, I believe that no Jew has true faith in the God of Israel unless they come to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the God of Israel?

And I believe that they eventually will, collectively speaking. But that's got to come from the demographic minority of Jews who still adhere at least in an intellectual sense to the idea of a God to begin with.

Does that make me a fan of the present state of Israel or some kind of Zionist? Absolutely not, unless you think somehow that the Christian eschatological belief in the Jewish return to the Holy Land infers a kind of Zionism (which it doesn't).

There is a kind of natural religious zeal that can do something, but that something is usually of a superstitious, legalistic/mechanical/pagan , and/or fanatical and cruel nature. Most human beings never get past this kind of religion which Father John Romanides used to rightfully call a " neuro biological disorder"

Faith though is supernatural, doesn't resemble that sort of " religion", and is a gift from God to have.
#15326821
Verv wrote:There is zero evidence of that anywhere - just really lame gross speculation sponsored by center left oligarchs horrified that their profits they rake in through collusion and warfare are threatened by him, plus their social libertinism.

But please, make the case.


@Verv :

This is true, very true.

Which makes it all so much more tragic that with Trump you have a man with a Quixotic Nationalist and Populist agenda for America.

An tragic agenda precisely because he knows productive Capitalism well enough sufficiently to realize that the fate of America, of Capitalism, and the Nation State are fatally linked to the well being of the common working man in America.

Can that be diverted into Fascism? Absolutely.

Is that Trump's aim? Many think so, and some even hope so.

Trump is an Oligarch, absolutely. But he is the absolute smartest of the lot at least with an innate cunning, similar to that of his rival Barack Obama. Obama played to the left liberal end of the political spectrum in America for the elites, Trump does the same on the right conservative end of the political spectrum.

And Obama is Trump's rival to this day, and Trump is Obama's, this is really what is going on behind the scenes.
#15326823
annatar1914 wrote:And @Verv , @Potemkin :



@Hakeer :

I do understand the question, in fact perhaps better than you do, unless it's the case that you simply don't like my answer. Because it's not I that answers it so completely, but Jesus Christ:

".

How more clear of an answer does it have to be for you, that because of what Christ said, I believe that no Jew has true faith in the God of Israel unless they come to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the God of Israel?

And I believe that they eventually will, collectively speaking. But that's got to come from the demographic minority of Jews who still adhere at least in an intellectual sense to the idea of a God to begin with.

Does that make me a fan of the present state of Israel or some kind of Zionist? Absolutely not, unless you think somehow that the Christian eschatological belief in the Jewish return to the Holy Land infers a kind of Zionism (which it doesn't).

There is a kind of natural religious zeal that can do something, but that something is usually of a superstitious, legalistic/mechanical/pagan , and/or fanatical and cruel nature. Most human beings never get past this kind of religion which Father John Romanides used to rightfully call a " neuro biological disorder"

Faith though is supernatural, doesn't resemble that sort of " religion", and is a gift from God to have.


So, Jews won’t have faith in the God of Israel until they become Christians.

Meanwhile, you see Judaism is as a “superstitious, legalistic/mechanical/pagan , and/or fanatical and cruel nature…a neuro biological disorder"

I am no expert on Judaism, but they seem as faithful in their beliefs as you are in yours. The difference is in the content of the faith (One God vs. Trinity), not how fervently it is upheld. A person can be very committed to a false belief. We see it every day in both politics and religion.

This does, however, explain why you believe Jews will convert to Christianity. They've had 2,000 years.
#15326952
@Hakeer , you said:

So, Jews won’t have faith in the God of Israel until they become Christians
.

The Jews that have faith in the God of Israel will be Orthodox Christian, the rest will in whatever numbers follow the religion of Antichrist. The Church Fathers believed that the " Two Witnesses" mentioned in the Book of the Apocalypse were Saints Enoch and Elijah, who would convert the Jewish people before the consumation of all things.

Meanwhile, you see Judaism is as a “superstitious, legalistic/mechanical/pagan , and/or fanatical and cruel nature…a neuro biological disorder"


I see most people in the false religions, and indeed most people in the true, as people prone to have a worldview that produces such attitudes as I've mentioned before.

I am no expert on Judaism, but they seem as faithful in their beliefs as you are in yours
.

Most Jews these days are statistically secular, with some of the highest rates of Atheism and Agnosticism in the world, last time I looked into the matter. Those who aren't? See my comment above on religion. Some will convert.

The difference is in the content of the faith (One God vs. Trinity), not how fervently it is upheld. A person can be very committed to a false belief. We see it every day in both politics and religion


Actually there is One God in Christianity, we aren't Tritheists. And the Trinity is all over the Old testament and even cabalistic Jewish mystical literature has echoes of it in the Zohar and so forth.

This does, however, explain why you believe Jews will convert to Christianity. They've had 2,000 years
.

From our perspective that seems to be a long time. But from God's perspective it's just the blink of an eye. And the prophetic signs are there that the foundation is being prepared.

Few would have believed in 1908 that the Jews would return to the Holy Land a generation later and have a nation state again in 1948. Few in 1988 a generation after the founding would have comprehended events almost 40 years later to 2028 now either. We shall see marvels in our day I'm sure.
#15326954
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer , you said:

.

The Jews that have faith in the God of Israel will be Orthodox Christian, the rest will in whatever numbers follow the religion of Antichrist. The Church Fathers believed that the " Two Witnesses" mentioned in the Book of the Apocalypse were Saints Enoch and Elijah, who would convert the Jewish people before the consumation of all things.



I see most people in the false religions, and indeed most people in the true, as people prone to have a worldview that produces such attitudes as I've mentioned before.

.

Most Jews these days are statistically secular, with some of the highest rates of Atheism and Agnosticism in the world, last time I looked into the matter. Those who aren't? See my comment above on religion. Some will convert.



Actually there is One God in Christianity, we aren't Tritheists. And the Trinity is all over the Old testament and even cabalistic Jewish mystical literature has echoes of it in the Zohar and so forth.

.

From our perspective that seems to be a long time. But from God's perspective it's just the blink of an eye. And the prophetic signs are there that the foundation is being prepared.

Few would have believed in 1908 that the Jews would return to the Holy Land a generation later and have a nation state again in 1948. Few in 1988 a generation after the founding would have comprehended events almost 40 years later to 2028 now either. We shall see marvels in our day I'm sure.


Interesting. Seems you are right about Jews. According to PEW poll, only 21% of them are very religious. I read a little about Book of Enoch. It has been a controversial subject, among several denominations of Jews and Christians. Some of the Jews considered it heretical. It conflicts with the Torah. JC Latter Day Saints accept parts of it.

Anyway, I think we need a new topic. This one seems to have run its course.
#15326972
Hakeer wrote:Interesting. Seems you are right about Jews. According to PEW poll, only 21% of them are very religious. I read a little about Book of Enoch. It has been a controversial subject, among several denominations of Jews and Christians. Some of the Jews considered it heretical. It conflicts with the Torah. JC Latter Day Saints accept parts of it.

Anyway, I think we need a new topic. This one seems to have run its course.


@Hakeer :

The Monophysites of Ethiopia have Enoch in the Canon of their Scripture, but the Orthodox don't because we cannot be certain 100% that parts of the Book of Enoch aren't tampered with. As it is, it and other books are still valued because they reflect the tradition of the early Church in numerous places within them.

I am presently engaged in research which ties some of the things we've all been talking about here, and as always I am always willing to fine tune my thinking as a result. I'll present that thinking soon.
#15326976
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

The Monophysites of Ethiopia have Enoch in the Canon of their Scripture, but the Orthodox don't because we cannot be certain 100% that parts of the Book of Enoch aren't tampered with. As it is, it and other books are still valued because they reflect the tradition of the early Church in numerous places within them.

I am presently engaged in research which ties some of the things we've all been talking about here, and as always I am always willing to fine tune my thinking as a result. I'll present that thinking soon.


I was going to ask a question about prayer. But maybe i can fit it into your next topic. It was basically about Prayer vs. Fatalism. In a nutshell: If the future is already determined, what is there to pray for? Is it foolish to pray for a desired future? I will talk about this in relation to my sister, but more on that later.
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