I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 108 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15326978
Hakeer wrote:I was going to ask a question about prayer. But maybe i can fit it into your next topic. It was basically about Prayer vs. Fatalism. In a nutshell: If the future is already determined, what is there to pray for? I will talk about this in relation to my sister, but more on that later.


@Hakeer :

For us, prayer is made in linear time in the present, but God is within all time and indeed beyond it, in eternity. We may not know how God acts fully, but act He does.

Through the communion of saints, a prayer made by a little girl in the 13th century might have its effect in the 21st, or vice versa.

God moves us to pray, and prayers are so much more than a petition.
#15327174
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

For us, prayer is made in linear time in the present, but God is within all time and indeed beyond it, in eternity. We may not know how God acts fully, but act He does.

Through the communion of saints, a prayer made by a little girl in the 13th century might have its effect in the 21st, or vice versa.

God moves us to pray, and prayers are so much more than a petition.


There are some interesting sidetracks we could go through here, such as the logical paradoxes in traveling back in time and changing events in the past, whether it is done by God or by humans with a time machine. It also involves a discussion of the epistemology of “ominipotence” in relation to God’s ability to make changes in the timeline. Maybe we can go there sometime.

But getting back to my question about Prayer vs. Fatalism. Do you think everything is predestined, or has God left at least some degree of indeterminism in the future? In that case, God might grant prayer requests about some desired future. If not, it is a waste to pray for something that is already predestined. I mention this, because my sister is always praying for divine intervention into the smallest details of daily living. There are two ways to pray for such things. The first is to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance to help you make the best decisions in your life. I used to do that. The other is to have a definite idea of what you want, and ask God to make it happen (or not).
#15327200
Hakeer wrote:There are some interesting sidetracks we could go through here, such as the logical paradoxes in traveling back in time and changing events in the past, whether it is done by God or by humans with a time machine. It also involves a discussion of the epistemology of “ominipotence” in relation to God’s ability to make changes in the timeline. Maybe we can go there sometime.

But getting back to my question about Prayer vs. Fatalism. Do you think everything is predestined, or has God left at least some degree of indeterminism in the future? In that case, God might grant prayer requests about some desired future. If not, it is a waste to pray for something that is already predestined. I mention this, because my sister is always praying for divine intervention into the smallest details of daily living. There are two ways to pray for such things. The first is to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance to help you make the best decisions in your life. I used to do that. The other is to have a definite idea of what you want, and ask God to make it happen (or not).


@Hakeer :

Consider the structure of the Prayer, the Our Father taught us by Jesus Christ. It's from our perspective, not His.

It's not a legal agreement between two parties, or some kind of business arrangement.

It's a humble acceptance and total trust in the loving Creator God. An acknowledgement of our dependency on Him, our contingent being, for everything we have and everything we are that comes from Him.

If He answers a prayer with " no" or " yes" for that matter, like the Father of All that He is He has His reasons . Reasons which are for the best.

I'm a sinner. I don't like any of that. I try to deny that or live as if I don't believe it a great deal of the time.

But it is. It's not wrong to petition God. But it's only part of prayers meaning.

God is all good, all knowing and all powerful. Everything that happens, happens directly or indirectly because of His will, His plan.

We have a non libertarian free will. We freely will what we are made to will, by that which moves us.
#15327204
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

Consider the structure of the Prayer, the Our Father taught us by Jesus Christ. It's from our perspective, not His.

It's not a legal agreement between two parties, or some kind of business arrangement.

It's a humble acceptance and total trust in the loving Creator God. An acknowledgement of our dependency on Him, our contingent being, for everything we have and everything we are that comes from Him.

If He answers a prayer with " no" or " yes" for that matter, like the Father of All that He is He has His reasons . Reasons which are for the best.

I'm a sinner. I don't like any of that. I try to deny that or live as if I don't believe it a great deal of the time.

But it is. It's not wrong to petition God. But it's only part of prayers meaning.

God is all good, all knowing and all powerful. Everything that happens, happens directly or indirectly because of His will, His plan.

We have a non libertarian free will. We freely will what we are made to will, by that which moves us.


So, if God has predestined that “A” to happen, then God won’t move you to pray for “A” not to happen. But theoretically Satan might move you to pray for “A” not to happen. In either case, do you have the capacity to resist what they are “moving” you to do? If not, the choice is theirs, not yours. They will something and you do it.

None of that really answers my question about whether God has predestined EVERYTHING that will ever happen, or has God allowed some degree of indeterminism for future events? Did you ever read Aristotle “On Interpretation” where he asks what is the truth status of the statement “There will be a sea battle tomorrow” if the future is not yet determined? We need a modal logic with 3 truth values: T=true F=false I=Indeterminant. If the statement is “I”, then TODAY it is neither true or false, but tomorrow it will become T or F. So, the question is whether God has set up the universe to allow indeterminate events?
Last edited by Hakeer on 15 Oct 2024 01:25, edited 1 time in total.
#15327205
Hakeer wrote:So, if God has predestined that “A” to happen, then God won’t move you to pray for “A” not to happen. But theoretically Satan might move you to pray for “A” not to happen.

None of that really answers my question about whether God has predestined EVERYTHING that will ever happen, or has God allowed some degree of indeterminism for future events? Did you ever read Aristotle “On Interpretation” where he asks what is the truth status of the statement “There will be a sea battle tomorrow” if the future is not yet determined? We need a modal logic with 3 truth values: T=true F=false I=Indeterminant. If the statement is “I”, then TODAY it is neither true or false, but tomorrow it will become T or F. So, the question is whether God has set up the universe to allow indeterminate events?


@Hakeer :

A short answer is no. No, because God is already in every time and above time: every moment is in His eternal present. And being all powerful, no moment is beyond His power for it to exist or not exist. If something happens or has happened or will happen, He's already there and has ordained that it happen.

God is Free.

Having said that, free will at least in a non libertarian sense does exist for us, as I've explained before.

Don't have much use for philosophy or philosophers, least of all Aristotle.
#15327206
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

A short answer is no. No, because God is already in every time and above time: every moment is in His eternal present. And being all powerful, no moment is beyond His power for it to exist or not exist. If something happens or has happened or will happen, He's already there and has ordained that it happen.

God is Free.

Having said that, free will at least in a non libertarian sense does exist for us, as I've explained before.

Don't have much use for philosophy or philosophers, least of all Aristotle.


Being all powerful, God could set up a partially indeterministic universe if he wanted it that way. In that universe, if you throw the dice, even God doesn’t know whether it will be a “7”. He prefers to wait and see just like the rest of us. For Aristotle, “It will be a 7” has truth value “I” — unknowable to everyone, including God, by his own will.
#15327209
Hakeer wrote:Being all powerful, God could set up a partially indeterministic universe if he wanted it that way. In that universe, if you throw the dice, even God doesn’t know whether it will be a “7”. He prefers to wait and see just like the rest of us. For Aristotle, “It will be a 7” has truth value “I” — unknowable to everyone, including God, by his own will.


@Hakeer :

Then you are making God unfree, the prisoner of blind Chance/Necessity/Fate, Him and everyone else. This is the position of the Pagan philosophy of old, but it's not my position and I'm unalterably opposed to it with everything I am.

In fact, it's partly what my next posts are about anyway.

Edit:
I would be remiss if I did not refer back to a major influence upon me in these matters, Lev Shestov:

http://shestov.phonoarchive.org/
#15327210
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

Then you are making God unfree, the prisoner of blind Chance/Necessity/Fate, Him and everyone else. This is the position of the Pagan philosophy of old, but it's not my position and I'm unalterably opposed to it with everything I am.

In fact, it's partly what my next posts are about anyway.


The all-powerful God would still be free to reverse his decision and have a totally deterministic universe. He is more unfree in that universe, IF your view is that God is incapable of creating an indeterministic universe even if he wants to do it.
#15327214
Hakeer wrote:The all-powerful God would still be free to reverse his decision and have a totally deterministic universe. He is more unfree in that universe, IF your view is that God is incapable of creating an indeterministic universe even if he wants to do it.


@Hakeer :

If God binds Himself to anything within Himself, it would be His goodness, which would not shorten His arm, nor His wisdom.

With Him anything is possible, including abolition of past, present, future, moving people from one time to another, bringing things from non existence into being, anything.

At it's heart there is an aspect of what appears to be an Anarchy as the Ground of all Being.
#15327215
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

If God binds Himself to anything within Himself, it would be His goodness, which would not shorten His arm, nor His wisdom.

With Him anything is possible, including abolition of past, present, future, moving people from one time to another, bringing things from non existence into being, anything.

At it's heart there is an aspect of what appears to be an Anarchy as the Ground of all Being.


Okay, but doing “anything” includes creating an indeterministic universe, doesn’t it? He could have two universes — one deterministic and one indeterministic— and jump back and forth between them.
#15327218
Hakeer wrote:Okay, but doing “anything” includes creating an indeterministic universe, doesn’t it? He could have two universes — one deterministic and one indeterministic— and jump back and forth between them.


@Hakeer :

Now you are just stretching the limits of language if not thought, but all that aside I think that you're missing my point anyway.

With God anything is possible, if He so wills, else He is not God.

This is the end of philosophy but the beginning of Faith, and the setting aside of rationalism and scientism and miserable human ethics and morality is the ontological liberty of the human person, embedded in the freedom of God.
#15327220
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

Now you are just stretching the limits of language if not thought, but all that aside I think that you're missing my point anyway.

With God anything is possible, if He so wills, else He is not God.

This is the end of philosophy but the beginning of Faith, and the setting aside of rationalism and scientism and miserable human ethics and morality is the ontological liberty of the human person, embedded in the freedom of God.


Okay, so now I think we are stuck on the question of what are the limits on what God can will. To take the most obvious example, since God is eternal, he can’t commit suicide and become nonexistent. He can’t Will himself to become evil. And so on. So are you telling me — in that vein — he could not and cannot will an indeterministic universe?

An indeterministic universe has a different definition of “omniscience” than in a deterministic universe. In a deterministic universe, God knows everything, including every single thing you will ever do in your life. He will know from the moment you are an embryo in your mother’s womb whether you are destined for heaven or hell. In an indeterministic universe, on the other hand, God knows everything that is knowable. I would be okay with that world, but you would not.
#15327229
Hakeer wrote:Okay, so now I think we are stuck on the question of what are the limits on what God can will. To take the most obvious example, since God is eternal, he can’t commit suicide and become nonexistent. He can’t Will himself to become evil. And so on. So are you telling me — in that vein — he could not and cannot will an indeterministic universe?

An indeterministic universe has a different definition of “omniscience” than in a deterministic universe. In a deterministic universe, God knows everything, including every single thing you will ever do in your life. He will know from the moment you are an embryo in your mother’s womb whether you are destined for heaven or hell. In an indeterministic universe, on the other hand, God knows everything that is knowable. I would be okay with that world, but you would not.


God can do anything, and He did what He wanted, and what He wanted was just and proper, as He is a good steward.

Very short answer, but I think it solves the issues.
#15327232
Verv wrote:God can do anything, and He did what He wanted, and what He wanted was just and proper, as He is a good steward.

Very short answer, but I think it solves the issues.


Bringing others in to note:
@Potemkin , @Hakeer

@Verv :

It does, my friend. God is immutable and impassible so He's not going to change the way He orders the Cosmos anyway, because He doesn't change.

Again as I've said before, the " ability" to sin only seems like a liberty to us out of our ignorance which is an effect of sin, and our pride, which is the root of our sin. Therefore we really would, as sinners, much rather deny Him the ability to change things than lose this "freedom" which is the most dreadful slavery there is....

I wanted also to note, since I mentioned God's immutability and impassibility, that I of course deny that God lacks emotions at all, since I follow the Orthodox " Theopaschite Formula" of the 2nd Council of Constantinople:

Canon 10: "If anyone does not confess that our Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified in flesh is true God and Lord of glory and one of the holy Trinity, let him be anathema"
.

A leftover from the debates after the Council of Chalcedon and presented by the once famous "Scythian Monks". Like then, I've ultimately come to see as an Orthodox Christian that the unity of the Person of Jesus Christ, the Christological component, and the Trinitarian unity of the Godhead, requires that God also experiences emotions ( without sinful impatience and annoyance of course, as St Augustine once noted).

Like the Scythian Monks, I find it therefore absolutely essential for true Orthodoxy to hold to the Christology of St Cyril of Alexandria and thus also the teachings of St Augustine on Grace. That the Unity of the Godhead and the Incarnation in Christ Jesus, and the Salvific power and Sovereign will of God, are absolutely connected although it means that God is both mutable and immutable, impassible and passible, that He predestines us to salvation and that we have free will. All these things exist in God and are mysteriously reconciled!

I have come to accept this, and that the Dialectic within God that reconciles these truths is the same Dialectic that operates in His Creation, despite our miserable and inadequate philosophies lack of understanding it. Only through Grace does the Orthodox Christian Church, having the Mind of Christ and enlightened by the Holy Spirit when assembled in Council, become enabled to understand these truths.
#15327240
annatar1914 wrote:Bringing others in to note:
@Potemkin , @Hakeer

@Verv :

It does, my friend. God is immutable and impassible so He's not going to change the way He orders the Cosmos anyway, because He doesn't change.

Again as I've said before, the " ability" to sin only seems like a liberty to us out of our ignorance which is an effect of sin, and our pride, which is the root of our sin. Therefore we really would, as sinners, much rather deny Him the ability to change things than lose this "freedom" which is the most dreadful slavery there is....

I wanted also to note, since I mentioned God's immutability and impassibility, that I of course deny that God lacks emotions at all, since I follow the Orthodox " Theopaschite Formula" of the 2nd Council of Constantinople:

.

A leftover from the debates after the Council of Chalcedon and presented by the once famous "Scythian Monks". Like then, I've ultimately come to see as an Orthodox Christian that the unity of the Person of Jesus Christ, the Christological component, and the Trinitarian unity of the Godhead, requires that God also experiences emotions ( without sinful impatience and annoyance of course, as St Augustine once noted).

Like the Scythian Monks, I find it therefore absolutely essential for true Orthodoxy to hold to the Christology of St Cyril of Alexandria and thus also the teachings of St Augustine on Grace. That the Unity of the Godhead and the Incarnation in Christ Jesus, and the Salvific power and Sovereign will of God, are absolutely connected although it means that God is both mutable and immutable, impassible and passible, that He predestines us to salvation and that we have free will. All these things exist in God and are mysteriously reconciled!

I have come to accept this, and that the Dialectic within God that reconciles these truths is the same Dialectic that operates in His Creation, despite our miserable and inadequate philosophies lack of understanding it. Only through Grace does the Orthodox Christian Church, having the Mind of Christ and enlightened by the Holy Spirit when assembled in Council, become enabled to understand these truths.


If we’re going with the “mysteriously reconciled” route, then I can say that God can create an indeterministic universe. Problem solved. Time to move on to next topic.
#15327241
Hakeer wrote:If we’re going with the “mysteriously reconciled” route, then I can say that God can create an indeterministic universe. Problem solved. Time to move on to next topic.



@Hakeer :

Not if you are still trying to say that God either allows things to happen that He doesn't plan, or He isn't powerful enough or sovereign enough to prevent things He doesn't plan or see from happening. That's not God, pretty much by definition.

To say that God is Free, is to also say that He is Good and Almighty and Omniscient, otherwise He would not be entirely Free to Act, now would He?

It is only in the God Man Jesus Christ that by His Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection, that Man is freed from the iron determinism of slavery to sin and death:

"Without Me, you can do nothing"
#15327248
annatar1914 wrote:@Hakeer :

Not if you are still trying to say that God either allows things to happen that He doesn't plan, or He isn't powerful enough or sovereign enough to prevent things He doesn't plan or see from happening. That's not God, pretty much by definition.

To say that God is Free, is to also say that He is Good and Almighty and Omniscient, otherwise He would not be entirely Free to Act, now would He?


I can imagine that God is not a control freak and so allows some things to happen randomly — like the roll of the dice by some dude at my local casino. No matter the outcome, he can use his powers to get events aligned to keep his predestined master plans on track, if necessary. For example, he can intervene on the guy’s next dice roll to cause him to lose all his money. Actually, therefore, the God of an indeterministic universe has more action options than a God of a deterministic universe where he’s already locked into one plan with the movement of every subatomic particle predetermined for all eternity.

Anyway, I understand you are committed to a deterministic universe and can go with Hegelian dialectics, “mysterious reconciliation”, or whatever is required to make free will compatible with even the strongest version of determinism.

So I’m ready to move on to the next topic.
#15327266
Hakeer wrote:I can imagine that God is not a control freak and so allows some things to happen randomly — like the roll of the dice by some dude at my local casino. No matter the outcome, he can use his powers to get events aligned to keep his predestined master plans on track, if necessary. For example, he can intervene on the guy’s next dice roll to cause him to lose all his money. Actually, therefore, the God of an indeterministic universe has more action options than a God of a deterministic universe where he’s already locked into one plan with the movement of every subatomic particle predetermined for all eternity.

Anyway, I understand you are committed to a deterministic universe and can go with Hegelian dialectics, “mysterious reconciliation”, or whatever is required to make free will compatible with even the strongest version of determinism.

So I’m ready to move on to the next topic.


@Hakeer :

I'm working on a historical research project at this time, I hope to be finished soon.

As Napoleon said: " history is a lie agreed upon by the victors". In large part that's quite true.
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