[Pants-of-dog]

The investigation into Hamas infiltrating UNRWA showed nothing except that UNRWA could make some minor improvements to its screening process. The fact that UNRWA had a UN investigation and fired anyone who was not maintaining a neutral position on social media shows a lack of infiltrating.

And Hamas’s strategy is not to merely make Israel “look bad”, whatever that means. The goal was to push the IDF into committing atrocities in Gaza and in surrounding countries, thereby eroding international support for the Israeli government and improving Gaza’s relative position to Israel.

And it is illogical and a contradiction to argue that Hamas is a dictatorship that cares nothing about the residents of Gaza and also claim that they are a democratic party that cares solely about the residents of Gaza.

[wat0n]

Even UNRWA admitted that it found Hamas members in its ranks, not just in Gaza but also in Lebanon.

I did not claim Hamas is a democratic party that cares about civilians in Gaza. It doesn't, it's a dictatorship and it simply does not want protests against its rule because those made it more likely it would be overthrown. Just like Pinochet did not like dealing with protests either.

Hamas' mistake was in believing that a massacre like October 7th would not lead to a real attempt to remove it by force, that Israel would buckle under pressure to stop due to the collateral damage on civilians resulting from Hamas' shielding despite this war starting due to Hamas committing the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust and that Hezbollah and Iran would manage to save Hamas from such attempt to end its rule of Gaza. Hamas never imagined Israel had infiltrated Hezbollah to the extent it has.

[Pants-of-dog]

Please quote the evidence showing UNRWA found Hamas members in its ranks. The evidence shown on this thread shows that they fired people who violated the neutrality policy, but not that they were members of Hamas. It is possible that the evidence was misinterpreted by those who want to believe UNRWA is at fault.

And since we agree that Hamas does not care about Gaza residents and their opinion of Hamas, this disproves the claim that they attacked on October 7 in order to bolster their support among Gazans.

Hamas’s success was in believing that a massacre like October 7th would lead to a real attempt to remove it by force, that Israel would lose support under pressure to stop due to the collateral damage on civilians resulting from the IDF’s deliberate targeting of civilians.

[wat0n]

GENEVA (AP) — The UN agency for Palestinian refugees said a top Hamas commander killed in Lebanon Monday was one of its employees but had been suspended since allegations of his ties to the militant group emerged in March.

Note that caring about Gazan public opinion is not the same as caring about Gazans themselves. Even Pinochet cared about Chilean public opinion, even though I'm sure you believe he did not care about Chileans themselves.

Hamas' failure was to believe such pressure on Israel would lead Israel to back down on attempting to end its rule of Gaza, and that Hezbollah and Hamas would manage to stop Israel if it ignored political pressure to do so.

[Pants-of-dog]

Someone is not clear on the difference between singular and plural.

So we see that there was one single person who was suspended as son as his ties to Hamas became clear. That actions shows that Hamas has not successfully infiltrated UNRWA.

This is why evidence is so important to quote. Then we can all see where the reader misunderstood initially.

[wat0n]

The people who were fired by UNRWA were also admitted to have been Hamas members, which is why they were fired (not suspended, fired) in the first place.

The only reason UNRWA suspended (not fired, suspended) the guy in Lebanon is because Israel tipped them.

The fact these people were hired to begin with is evidence of infiltration.

[Pants-of-dog]

We looked at the evidence of people who were fired from UNRWA. They were fired for violating the neutrality policy. There was no evidence of them being members of Hamas.

The accusation of infiltration is merely an excuse for the Israeli government to destroy UNRWA. This can be deduced from the fact that the IDF and Israeli government have not provided evidence of Hamas involvement for the hundreds of UNRWA employees killed in their homes by IDF bombs.

[wat0n]

The accusation of infiltration is accurate the moment UNRWA has been found to have hired members of armed groups. Again, even UNRWA admits this has been the case.

Having said that, UNRWA is a civilian body so it's hard for them to do that kind of screening. The real issue with them is that they refuse to admit this, and also that they have been coerced by Hamas in the past. Instead, we are finding out piecemeal only once those members have been exposed.

Things would deescalate if UNRWA was to admit it needs assistance with vetting and that it's subject to being coerced by armed groups on the ground.

[Pants-of-dog]

If the mere inclusion of members of the group is enough to prove infiltration, then the IDF is infiltrated with Zionist supremacists intent on genocide, police forces around the USA are infiltrated by far right racists, and PoFo has been infiltrated by genocide deniers.

The claim that UNRWA is hiding this is disproved by the UN investigations. The only people refusing to provide evidence for these investigations are the Israeli government and IDF.

[wat0n]

I didn't say UNRWA is "hiding" infiltration, which they admitted to (so I don't get what your problem with the term is), only that they do not admit that they failed at vetting. UNRWA refuses to acknowledge the problem in their hiring procedures.

[Pants-of-dog]

UNRWA never admitted to hiding infiltration.

And UNRWA has been very clear about its vetting policies since the UN investigation was able to provide some feedback about said policies.

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports ... anisms-and

Now, since it is agreed that the Israeli government and the IDF are trying to destroy UNRWA, are we supposed to believe that this targeted destruction is due to imperfect but transparent vetting processes?

[wat0n]

UNRWA's vetting policies clearly failed given it hired Hamas members, a local commander even. It really isn't all that complicated.

The issue is that UNRWA isn't admitting this was a failure.

[Pants-of-dog]

Since I literally just posted a link to where UNRWA discusses how they can improve their vetting procedures, we know for a fact that UNRWA has held itself accountable and this disproves any claim that they are not admitting to the problem.

So if the justification for trying to destroy UNRWA is based on this incorrect assumption, then there is no good reason for the Israeli government and IDF to destroy UNRWA.

[wat0n]

There's still been no admission by UNRWA that its hiring policies failed, particularly since that report is nowhere to be found.

The fact people like Lazzarini haven't said so explicitly is also a problem.

[Saeko]

[wat0n]

Israel Hayom is actually quoting a report for A-Sharq Al-Awsat, which in turn cites some Hamas officials. It's not a report from the autopsy

https://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/worl ... e/16710134

[Rich]

From the River to the Sea. Some people have a vision!

Of course the River refers to the Euphrates and the Sea refers to the Red Sea. I'm not saying that's Netanyahu vision, but it is for many real Judaists. There are many factors that produce a US Presidential outcome, but remember the number one job of an American President is to serve the Jewish State.

1) eh. There is no indication that things are wrapping up. On the contrary...Iraqi and Lebanese groups are now in possession of Iranian missiles that are penetrating air defenses consistently. Net and Yahoo has the breathing room to amplify his gaza and west bank campaigns. News just got out that Palestinians won't be allowed to return to north Gaza-ever. That's 600,000 ethnically cleansed already..

Joe Biden came at the King, Benjamin Netanyahu and he definitively missed. Now Donald Trump is on his way back to the White House, with J.D. Vance sitting on the subs bench. I think it would have been difficult for Harris to stand cover for the Jewish resettlement of Northern Gaza. Four years time it could be fine for a Democrat to come back into give cover to the new status quo.

[Rich]

I have to be honest seeing those Israeli football supporters taking down those Palestinian flags was a wake up call for me.

I wonder how many people in Amsterdam would feel safe putting up an Israeli flag outside their home or business. I wonder how many people would safe walking through De Baarsjes, Oud-West or Slotervaart at night with an Israeli flag. Hell I wonder how many people would safe walking through much of Amsterdam with an Israeli flag, in broad day light. I noticed that the Israelis just took down the flags. I suspect that if you put an Israeli flag outside your building, having to put up a new flag from time to time would be the least of your problems. The Muslim occupation of the Netherlands and lets be under no illusions that is what it is, given the country's history, the hundreds of years they spent fighting, literally fighting to free themselves from Papist tyranny, this is a terrible tragedy. If I was Dutch I would feel I owed it to my ancestors to resist.

The thing with the Muslim is always to ask what if the situation was reversed. I also owe a debt to comments made by @noemon many months back that have taken me some time to think through. Imagine if what we see in Gaza, was happening inside Egyptian controlled territory. Imagine if Jewish people, Jewish women, Jewish children were being bombed and starved and shot by Egyptions. Imagine if it was the Israeli armed forces that were a corrupt incompetent joke like the Arab armies. Imagine if it was the Jewish state that was militarily powerless to intervene. Do you think that Israel would close its borders to its own people. Do you think that Israel would leave its people there just in order to make the other side look bad.

When the Azerbaijani, Muslim terrorist, Settler Imperialists overran Nagorny Karabach did Armenia close its border to its brothers and sisters? Did Armenia say let them die, even let them be genocided, if it makes our enemy look bad? When the Russians took Bakhmut did Ukraine force its civilians to stay just to make the Russians look bad. When Ukraine made its surprise attack on Belgorod, did the Russians try to use its civilians as human shields in order to hinder the Ukrainian advance and make Ukraine look bad?

The terrible suffering we see in Gaza must be 100 percent blamed on Egypt and all the other Muslim peoples of the world that have not demanded that Gazan civilians be evacuated.

[ingliz]

@Rich

There is no right of return for Palestinians.

If they are 'evacuated', that's it. There's no coming back.

Your faux humanitarian gesture is ethnic cleansing by another name.

[Pants-of-dog]

I posted a link to the report where UNRWA looked at the problems it had with its vetting procedures for hiring, so to claim that this report does not exist is to deliberately ignore facts provided.

And yes, any country that helps Palestinians resettle outside of Gaza is helping the IDF and Israeli government commit ethnic cleansing since those Palestinians are legally unable to return to their homes if they leave as refugees.

This is almost certainly one of the race based laws that led to the recent ruling of Israel as an Apartheid state.