[noemon]

@noemon how often do hooligans get arrested for racist chants?

Like, the banana throwing whenever black players or refs appear in the field is very much well known and I've never seen any of the culprits ever arrested. At most, I've seen teams being fined.

So the police can't arrest Israeli hooligans, vandalising buildings, taxis and assaulting local Europeans because that would also be "antisemitism" according to you, precisely as I said.

Israeli football hooligans tore down Palestine flags as they marched through Amsterdam in a Wednesday night of chaos ahead of Maccabi Tel Aviv's visit to Ajax.

Videos show dozens of hooded figures dressed fully in black cheering and chanting 'f*** you Palestine' and 'ole' as one climbed halfway up the front of a building and removed a flag on the Rokin, a major street.

Footage also shows one thug thumping a taxi with crowbar before the driver takes off, while there have been reported clashes between the visiting hooligans and cabbies.

If the police arrest them or locals fight these Israeli hooligans, you and Israel would call them both 'antisemitic pogromists' as you evidently do regardlesss of what crimes Israeli hooligans commit in European cities, so you are literally saying that Israeli hooligans have the right to visit European capitals, terrorise people, vandalise buildings and cars and neither local authorities nor local football fans have the right to do anything about it because anybody that reacts to Israeli racist terrorism is an "antisemite".

[ingliz]

@wat0n

I think you should be thanking the Dutch for their restraint.

If someone came at me with a crowbar, they'd get more than a black eye.

[noemon]

[AFAIK]

Owen Jones gets the story straight;

[noemon]

Owen Jones gets the story straight;

What he's clearly missing to mention is that Israeli hooligans started their rampage the day before the game on Wednesday the 6th. They attacked buildings, taxis and people the day before and again the day after.

He claims they started their rampage during the game when they interupted the moment of silence for the flood victims of Valencia to chant that "they killed all the kids in Gaza".

[wat0n]

So the police can't arrest Israeli hooligans, vandalising buildings, taxis and assaulting local Europeans because that would also be "antisemitism" according to you, precisely as I said.



If the police arrest them or locals fight these Israeli hooligans, you and Israel would call them both 'antisemitic pogromists' as you evidently do regardlesss of what crimes Israeli hooligans commit in European cities, so you are literally saying that Israeli hooligans have the right to visit European capitals, terrorise people, vandalise buildings and cars and neither local authorities nor local football fans have the right to do anything about it because anybody that reacts to Israeli racist terrorism is an "antisemite".

I already said cops should arrest them.

I even provided you with an example of Greek police arresting Israeli hooligans with nobody claiming it was antisemitism.

So what's your issue? You're literally just making up shit at this point.

The only way to prove connection would be for the victims of this violence to admit to provoking the violence they're seeking restitution for, which is self-defeating.

Your video has no faces or any attacks, it's worse than my video because it could be literally anyone, anywhere. It proves nothing.

"The videos were all staged" isn't a good argument either. Stop bullshitting.

Jewish people are white, how do you think the people assaulting Israelis determined who they were attacking. Again, I think collective punishment is wrong, but how can you justify Israel's indiscriminate bombing campaigns that killed and continue to kill thousands, but clutch pearls about random punches and kicks? If Hamas is to blame for every innocent Palestinian death then Israel is to blame for all the bruises.

Israel isn't indiscriminately bombing in Gaza either.

And the attackers would demand their victims to show their ID to see if they're Israelis.

There is quite obviously apartheid in Israel - Palestinians are not only denied the right to vote, marry Jews, and travel their own country unmolested, but denied access to their own houses. It is not an excuse and I have never hunted anyone. Jews, Muslims, and Christians are pretty much the same in my book. At this point Israel seems less concerned with Judaism, and more concerned with importing Eastern European white people to maintain their ethnostate.

Israeli Arabs enjoy full rights. That alone debunks the Apartheid nonsense.

Most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and Sephardi, so they're not even white under American standards.

This is the quintessential Israeli argument in which you never address the mass murder I've brought up over and over and just keep calling me antisemitic although I've said nothing negative about Jews or Judaism this entire time.

Because it's a dishonest, bullshit argument when you say attacking random Muslims over whatever islamists do is wrong but you say attacking Jews over whatever you claim Israel does is alright.

[noemon]

Because it's a dishonest, bullshit argument when you say attacking random Muslims over whatever islamists do is wrong but you say attacking Jews over whatever you claim Israel does is alright.

Very dishonest to replace violent Israeli hooligans on a racist rampage with "Jews".

That way you are wanting to commit genocide, riot in foreign countries and then demand apologies for your own crimes.

[wat0n]

Very dishonest to replace violent Israeli hooligans on a racist rampage with "Jews".

That way you are wanting to commit genocide, riot in foreign countries and then demand apologies for your own crimes.

There is footage of them saying they were Jew-hunting in Dutch.

Don't blame me for taking them at face value.

[noemon]

[wat0n]

That article is quoting the police who were actually there.

Those are the "sources".

[noemon]

That article is quoting the police who were actually there.

Those are the "sources".

When the article quotes the police, it states so explicitly, when it does not quote the police, it doesn't.

So while your conjecture is imaginative, it is certainly false.

[wat0n]

Sure, so then read it? An example:

Pro-Israel stickers on Dam Square

According to the police, the trouble only started after a large group of Maccabi supporters arrived at the Central Station. It was just after midnight. Incidentally, all sources deny that the Jewish supporters misbehaved or brought aggression upon themselves. "I was there all day and evening," says a riot police officer. "I do not recognize myself at all in the image painted by some that Maccabi supporters provoked or incited violence. On the contrary. When pro-Israel stickers were put on Dam Square and we explained that this was our national war memorial, everything was neatly removed again."

A colleague adds: “If the entire city is filled with thousands of Israeli supporters and a Palestinian flag is deliberately hung out of the window on Rokin, who is provoking whom?”

Regarding an incident involving a taxi driver who was allegedly assaulted by Jewish supporters, a police officer said: “We are still investigating exactly what happened but the reaction of a group of drivers to then attack a group of Israelis in the Casino was completely out of line. The people who were inside had nothing to do with that incident.”

[noemon]

Sure, so then read it? An example

You are merely highlighting how propaganda works, in this case shamelesly conflating 'official police announcement'(.ie "According to the police, the trouble only started after a large group of Maccabi supporters arrived at the Central Station. It was just after midnight.") with opinion of a policeman on a loaded question such as: "Are the Maccabi hooligans to blame?" whose behaviour we have already witnessed live through Bender.

So no dear wat0n, the Amsterdam Police did not announce the police officers opinions, neither on whether Dutch people have a right or not to hung flags of Palestine, nor on the other's pledge of ignorance about the hooligans at the Central Station.

The Amsterdam Police did announce that the episodes were started by Maccabi hooligans at the Central Station.

[wat0n]

That Bender guy probably didn't even understand what was going on, and even he mentions that the Israeli hooligans were defending themselves.

By the way, should Dutch Jews start assaulting random immigrants over chants like "Hamas, Hamas All Jews to the gas"?

‘Hamas, Hamas, All Jews to the Gas.’ The History and Significance of an Antisemitic Slogan in the Netherlands, 1945–2010
Chapter
First Online: 01 January 2012
pp 85–103


Abstract

‘Hamas Hamas, all Jews to the gas’: the roots of this slogan which was shouted in recent anti-Israel demonstrations in the Netherlands, mainly by youths with a Muslim background, go back quite some time. Directly after the Second World War, in 1945, the insult ‘Ze zijn vergeten je te vergassen’ (They forgot to gas you) found its way into Dutch society. It is a first example of the post-Holocaust antisemitic identification of ‘Jews’ and ‘gas’ as it came into vogue in jokes, insults and slogans. Antisemitism has a history of cropping up in differing historical contexts, combining old and new stereotypes in a dialectical way. I deliberately spell antisemitism without a hyphen, because no such phenomenon as Semitism ever existed. The term anti-Semitism was invented by avowed antisemites, who at the end of the 19th century expanded the scope of the modifier for Semitic languages to encompass social-political and racist Jew hatred. I alternately use the terms ‘antisemitic’ and ‘anti-Jewish’. See also Hirsh (Anti-Zionism and antisemitism: Cosmopolitan reflections, Yale Initiative for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism, New Haven, 2007). Gradually, after World War II, antisemitism’s main points of attachment became the Shoah and Israel. The slogan ‘Hamas Hams all Jews to the gas’ is a striking case in point. For decades, and up to present times, it is yelled in Dutch football stadiums. In some cases in intellectual circles, a grudge against the growing dominance of the Shoah in public memory and historiography, resulted in using the gas chamber as a satirical, or an a-historical and demagogical metaphor. It is an example of what has been defined as secondary antisemitism. With regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is generally increasingly viewed as a-symmetrical in its power balance, criticism of Israel regularly crosses the line of antisemitism. Here lies the main trigger for ‘Muslim’ antisemitism, which meets ‘Dutch-Dutch’ antisemitism in a combined dislike and resentment towards Jews. Antisemitism is, however, not only a ‘real existing’ phenomenon. It is also used by so-called anti-antisemites as an ideological weapon against the supposed islamisation of Europe. The conclusion is simple, as well as complex and cynical. Antisemitism is versatile and multifunctional: something for everybody.

[annatar1914]

@wat0n :

" supposed Islamization of Europe"?

There's nothing " supposed" about it, and i would venture to speculate that most of the anti Israeli hooligans fighting Maccabi hooligans are Muslim, right? Bet a fair number of the police in Amsterdam are also Muslim.

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

" supposed Islamization of Europe"?

There's nothing " supposed" about it, and i would venture to speculate that most of the anti Israeli hooligans fighting Maccabi hooligans are Muslim, right? Bet a fair number of the police in Amsterdam are also Muslim.

Muslims are still a small minority though. A lower percentage than in Israel FWIW.

[annatar1914]

Muslims are still a small minority though. A lower percentage than in Israel FWIW.

@wat0n :

Nonetheless, they're the ones having children.

And that growing presence in the urban areas would provide some context to the recent street fights would they not?

[noemon]

That Bender guy probably didn't even understand what was going on, and even he mentions that the Israeli hooligans were defending themselves.

Which minute is that?

By the way, should Dutch Jews start assaulting random immigrants over chants like "Hamas, Hamas All Jews to the gas"?

Maccabi hooligans did indeed assault random immigrants on the streets of Amsterdam, as well as buildings and taxis.

You believe that just seeing a Palestinian flag(let alone hearing that chant) is provocative enough to permit any Jewish person to take it down by force with impunity(or else "antisemitism"), otherwise you would not have highlighted that justification.

[wat0n]

Which minute is that?

Minute 2:25, when he says that the Maccabi hooligans are stealing metal pods from a nearby construction site "maybe to protect themselves from people who are bothering them".

Maccabi hooligans did indeed assault random immigrants on the streets of Amsterdam, as well as buildings and taxis.

You believe that just seeing a Palestinian flag(let alone hearing that chant) is provocative enough to permit any Jewish person to take it down by force with impunity(or else "antisemitism"), otherwise you would not have highlighted that justification.

The chants have been the most common excuse.

Note that the police officers present there also said that the people who were attacked had nothing to do with whoever assaulted that taxi driver. As for stealing a flag... Should then Dutch Jews start assaulting random immigrants because of some people who burn Israeli flags?

[noemon]

Minute 2:25, when he says that the Maccabi hooligans are stealing metal pods from a nearby construction site "maybe to protect themselves from people who are bothering them".

The chants have been the most common excuse.

Note that the police officers present there also said that the people who were attacked had nothing to do with whoever assaulted that taxi driver. As for stealing a flag... Should then Dutch Jews start assaulting random immigrants because of some people who burn Israeli flags?

Just the visage of a Palestinian flag is enough to justify Israeli terrorism according to you wat0n.