[noemon]

I wonder if Stipe can educate me on all this sordid and tragicomic Balkanocentrism comes from.

I wonder if anyone will ever have the basic decency, to criticize the very obvious irredentist policy of a country inside Europe towards an EU member, that besides the fact that she(th EU member) has not got the obligation to recognize the irredentists, she is already willing to do so, if they simply compromise on adding a prefix of their own choice.

What is this sort of negative bashing and diminishing ones view?

If the whole thing is so unimportant? Then why do the US who always had a pro-Greek policy on this one and explicitly called them on an official level irredentists, propagandists and aggressors for several decades, have become patrons of their irredentism the last years, have built a military camp(Bondsteel, read largest in Europe) and keep their wet dreams alive by criticizing the Greeks, in an absolute U-turn?

What sort of message does the Greek public opinion oughts to express, when your next door neighbor, actively promotes irredentism regarding your country on an official level, and when the world's alleged superpower is acting as a patron on their behalf?

What the fuck is expected from this public opinion? Do Tell us please...

[peter_co]

What the fuck is expected from this public opinion? Do Tell us please...

Nothing at all is expected. Frankly almost nobody outside of Greece and Macedonia cared about this debate from the beginning, but the incessant screaming between the two sides over the past decade has ensured that most outsiders will react with downright hostility to any mention on this petty squabble. And if Greece is usually criticized more, this is only because while Macedonia pretty much just wants to be left alone and keep its name (unless you seriously believe that there's a chance of Macedonian troops marching into northern Greece), Greece is the side pushing for change and throwing a temper tantrum when some foreign state decides they just don't care anymore and uses the formulation Macedonia in reference to the country. And it doesn't even stop there! People simply find it mind boggling that such an utterly ridiculous dispute about the name of a country should lead to significant consequences, such as one of its neighbors sabotaging all attempts for the former to join NATO, the EU, and other organizations.

[noemon]

Dont babble and rabble, about the unimportance of the 2 states. All issues are exactly and precisely equally important for the space they occupy.

Greece is the side pushing for change

Oh yes ignorance is in fact on a high. Greece is pursuing status qvo and FYROM is pursuing change. The Interim agreement between FYROM and Greece clearly postulates that FYROM will enter no international organization, under the term Macedonia. This is a document their gov has signed decades now, and it is them that they are pushing for change, not Greece. You got the whole story wrong, because there has been U-turn of policy in the Balkans by the US, and the media make it look like that.

People find it mind-boggling: when their education speaks of unreedemed lands and territory as shown time and time again in here? When the map their PM lay their wreath on, has never been a historical entity of any sort, and above all it includes foreign territory(Greece territory), when their educational institutes like the Skopje University goes at lengths to prove that the Egyptian demotic language found in the Rosetta stone is in fact a Bulgarian dialect, the original language of the Macedonian's?

When our Western friends like the US bombs Serbia in Albania's honour? And goes on to build her largest European military camp in FYROM, while at the same time changing her policy towards the name dispute in a matter of years and starting to call the Greeks paranoid, when only recently, it was head on the side of Greece? Obama notwithstanding, a change pf policy but rather maintaining the historical argument in Greece's favor. And above all how is it perceived that they reject EU and NATO, consciously, by not accepting the term Slavic Macedonia, when in fact it was the name used historically by their own Liberation organization, the SNOF(Slavjano Мakedonski Narodno Osloboditelen Front)? Hmm?, do tell me please. Dont you have the basic logic to see that there is a deamon hidden in the closet?

I asked a simple question, either answer it, or remain silent.

I did not ask how large or how small your ignorance or the Wests ignorance is on the matter, or how these countries are unimportant, and nobody should care about.

But simply, under these circumstances, which are crystal already. How does a public opinion ought to react? How would other public opinions react?

Do tell us.

[Ombrageux]

All issues are exactly and precisely equally important for the space they occupy.

False, although this is a poor rationalization for your navel-gazing.

[noemon]

The argument that the gravity of the issue, should be a variable regarding the choice of sides on the issue, is the dumbest thing i've ever heard in my lifetime.

And the statement is true, not false, if you have no argument, dont babble arbitrarily, and do not post silly one-liners.

A lot of liberal PoFo "intellectuals" despite the fact that they do have the brains to understand the rationality of the Greek position, like yourself and Peter_Co, consciously choose to rant against the Greeks for some peculiar reason that has only caused time and time your ridiculation. I wonder for how long will you keep up the trumpet.

R edit: Please stay on topic, thanks. This goes for everyone.

[Vanasalus]

R edit: Please. Stay. On topic. Thank you.

[Ombrageux]

The argument that the gravity of the issue, should be a variable regarding the choice of sides on the issue, is the dumbest thing i've ever heard in my lifetime.

That isn't the argument. I think most petty nationalist disputes between small countries tend to be pretty unimportant. In making this a conflict over nomenclature, I think this issue brings this unimportance to a new order of magnitude.

[noemon]

That isn't the argument. I think most petty nationalist disputes between small countries tend to be pretty unimportant.

You have accepted the argument that you deny that you use, with your second sentence and by the fact that you take sides in very thread implicitly by criticizing the Greek position. And you have been excusing this choice, on the pettyness of the argument, that both countries are unimportant, and the issue is unimportant. Without realizing that since you take position by criticizing one of the sides, this petty argument does not stand by definition, and also make that your argument, which is indeed noy just one of the dumbest things i 've ever heard, but one of the most petty nationalist remarks in existence(effectively arguing "my country matters to be discussed, yours doesnt"), ironically performing far worse deeds that you accuse others of promoting, baselessly, not to mention that is one of the most ungently manner to refer to a whole crowd of people, that you have no affiliation with in any kind or way. The pettyness is indeed of a whole new order.

In making this a conflict over nomenclature, I think this issue brings this unimportance to a new order of magnitude.

Moreover, please do not state so again, because you have already claimed so several times, in various threads, and have been corrected in all of them. Nomenclature is secondary as i have asserted numerous times, and most particularly nomenclature is not at all touched by myself in this thread; i repeat in case you missed it, and challenge you to find the nomenclature argument you claim that takes this issue "on a whole order of magnitude":

People find it mind-boggling: when their education speaks of unreedemed lands and territory as shown time and time again in here? When the map their PM lay their wreath on, has never been a historical entity of any sort, and above all it includes foreign territory(Greece territory), when their educational institutes like the Skopje University goes at lengths to prove that the Egyptian demotic language found in the Rosetta stone is in fact a Bulgarian dialect, the original language of the Macedonian's?

When our Western friends like the US bombs Serbia in Albania's honour? And goes on to build her largest European military camp in FYROM, while at the same time changing her policy towards the name dispute in a matter of years and starting to call the Greeks paranoid, when only recently, it was head on the side of Greece? Obama notwithstanding, a change pf policy but rather maintaining the historical argument in Greece's favor. And above all how is it perceived that they reject EU and NATO, consciously, by not accepting the term Slavic Macedonia, when in fact it was the name used historically by their own Liberation organization, the SNOF (Slavjano Мakedonski Narodno Osloboditelen Front)? Hmm?, do tell me please. Dont you have the basic logic to see that there is a deamon hidden in the closet?

[DemonicRage]

They ultimately lost...as the are no longer Turkic.. only by name.
The country is a mess.
Very fragmanted and held together with Ataturk's gun to the peoples temple method...
Its ruling group is the 'Doenmeh' and yet the Turk is looking for some kind of Turkish supremecy..

On the topic of Macedonia... the only people that care abut FYROM is G W Bush.. the man with ovewhelmingly correct foreign policy on what to do...

Its just another foreign policy balls up.

If G W Bush administration thinks its right... then its 100% wrong.

History has proven that to us.


By the way copywrite can be used on anything except a heritage and a history right?
I cant call my sparkling wine champagne.
Im not allowed to download a movie as my own.. (That upsets money making businesses)

But can steal identity and hertage of a particular nation right??
So a bunch of slavs can move into an area 500 years AD and claim history from 350 BC?
That they can claim Alexander to be a slav speaker?
That he said "kakosi" "dobro".. yet any ancient artifact would be 'hellenic in origin'.
That the ancient capital of Macedonia was Pella (HEllenic for 'Rock' and meaning nothing in FYROM talk..
That Ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic games. (Sacred to only Hellenic participants)

So in 400 years Mexicans can call America MExico.. and claim Abraham Lincoln and George Washington to be MExican???

Oh.. thats going to happen anyway..

[Ombrageux]

It is typical petty nationalist hysteria to take the "threat" posed by Slavic Macedonia. If one took it seriously: Yes, FYROM is going to take on all of NATO, which represent over two thirds of world military spending, to occupy was ass-backward northern Greek province. It is literally ridiculous.

[noemon]

It is typical petty nationalist hysteria to take the "threat" posed by Slavic Macedonia. If one took it seriously: Yes, FYROM is going to take on all of NATO, which represent over two thirds of world military spending, to occupy was ass-backward northern Greek province. It is literally ridiculous.

It is typical of petty nationalist and supremacist hysteria to perform arbitrary conclusions and false assertions against evidence provided, without any serious argument regarding countries and areas that you have neither knowledge nor affiliation to.

Your petty argument is trashed by the unilateral US actions in Kossovo, incidentally FYROM's neighbor.

Your argument is trashed by the unilateral US actions to build Camp Bondsteel transcending 2 borders, both Kossovos and FYROM's.

Your argument is trashed by the fact that this state has attempted twice an attack the past century.

Your argument is trashed by the fact that the US has changed policy on the issue and has aggravated the situation by the above mentioned actions.

Your argument is trashed by even attempting to consider that a nation would impose an embargo to another over an issue of semantics and nomenclature, by one of the most prominent Greek politicians and a remarkable figure of global scope, hailed for his economic and diplomatic policies, that gained him such awards.

Your petty supremacist hysteria of discarding a whole public opinion as "petty nationalists" is disgusting, especially considering the evidence that you have been a witness of. The picture of the PM, and the map, the negation of "Slavic" when it is their own liberation movement named as such, and so much more.

It is literally ridiculous supremacist hysteria of "liberal internationalist intellectuals", indeed.

[Ombrageux]

How can I be hysterical? I do not fear the Greeks as they do FYROM. I just think they are inane. Or rather, Balkan diasporids with an internet connect.

[noemon]

You are being supremacist and hysterical as your comments stand by themselves as supremacist rants, by the simple facts that you especially do understand(ie you are not dumb), that you especially have been a witness of several threads of mine with impeccable arguments and sources every single time.

It is impossible for me to fathom, that after so long discussions you have not understood the rationality of the Greek position, yet you act as if you do not. This is hysteria, right there.

Second, nobody fears FYROM, as i 've told you before there is a saying: "cover your clothes, so that you keep half of them."

The Greeks as every other person in the planet fear uncertainty.

The signs of the global theatre leads everyone to understand that uncertainty is looming, and you have teenagers of recent years, taking such a position as yourself regarding this issue, when it was for decades a given in the Western public opinion that FYROM is just acting irrationally, and the Greeks did not have to defend their position, nobody actually gave a shit, their position was factually a matter of fact. FYROM was FYROM and that was that. But the very recent teenagers following the US change of policy after the Kossovo crisis have witnessed other facts, and that has forced Greece and her public opinion on the spot for a change in the status qvo. This alone sounds alert, because, why such a change of attitude? Out of compassion? Please...nobody buys that crap anymore..out of rationality? Okay, where the fuck is it? And second, the American camps, their patronage in NATO, and their unilateral activity, are severe cases for alert to be caused.

If you claim that cant see that, you are merely pretending not to.

As for your internet diaspora remarks, be informed that the Greek position regarding FYROM is accepted by all parties in Greece, even the far-left and the far-right, and everything in between, taxi-drivers have the same opinion as university professors regarding this one, there is no question about this matter, and the reality of this dispute has been verified time and time again.

You claim to believe that you deal with a couple of nationalists on the internet, when you are merely dealing with the Greek political and public opinion as a whole.

Now, you 'll claim that the whole of Greece could be a place full of nationalists from the higher official to the lower clerk. As well as Obama, France, Spain, several other countries and the basic rational facts themselves. Whatever sails your boat, really.

[DemonicRage]

It is typical petty nationalist hysteria to take the "threat" posed by Slavic Macedonia. If one took it seriously: Yes, FYROM is going to take on all of NATO, which represent over two thirds of world military spending, to occupy was ass-backward northern Greek province. It is literally ridiculous.

Greece needs to clear this up now. So there is no 'missunderstanding' into the future.

Things happen all the time.
Borders change.
The EU might not be around in a hundred years time.
FYROM might be part of a massive Russian umbrella.

Who knows?

Whats important is plagarising an identity today is not always harmless tomorrow.

Parmesan cheese is only Parmesan if its been made in Parma.

Like why is it ok to copywrite cheese and wine and not history and heritage?

Is commercialism more important than cultural history?

Seems in the US it probably is...

[Doomhammer]

Noemon, I find your rants about America and NATO quite odd. Greece was uncooperative in the NATO bombing campaign of Serbia and basically in the policy regarding Kosovo. Greece not only failed to capitalize on a good opportunity to earn brownie points, but deservedly got some contempt from others for not honoring the Alliance. And Greece causes problems for FYROM's (I'll refer it to as FYROM so as to not anger you) entry to the Alliance which cannot be appreciated by other countries. This supposed Anti-Greek, pro-FYROM sentiments just might be legitimate. Why appease someone who has been unreliable?

FYROM might be part of a massive Russian umbrella.

Greece would likely join that umbrella before they do, for historical reasons. (Now come on, don't dispute this. Orthodox brothers and traditionally good relations)

Seems in the US it probably is...

It's just that some societies reach a certain degree of maturity and no longer make a big fuss over things. They are secure about their values and history and usually feel flattered, though perhaps moderately perturbed, when people try to "usurp" their history.

Edit:

As for the "Parmagiano-Reggiano":

Parmesan cheese is only Parmesan if its been made in Parma.

"Parmesan" is an umbrella name used outside Italy for the said type of cheeses. Parmagiano is not solely made in Parma but also in other parts of Emilia-Romagna as well. And it is very easy to "plagiarize". Just need cow's milk or cured goats milk and some hardware.

[Ombrageux]

Parmesan cheese is only Parmesan if its been made in Parma.

The Kingdom of Alexander the Great is not a brand of cheese.

[DemonicRage]

Well if Greece is going to join with their historical Orthodox brothers Doomshammer/

Turkey will join with Pakistan.
Yes???

And if Greece does the Russian umbrella thing.. why wasnt it on the other side of the Iron curtain???(Like FYROM)

See???

You dont know what youre taking about do you?


And if FYROM claims the history of Alexander and if Alexander was somehow brought through a time capsule. why would he look at a FYROMnite with a weird look and not understand him.. but converse with a Greek???

By the way... considering that MAcedonia left a legacy in Judea with having the OT translated.. why is it not translated into Slavic?


Look.. i know its hard for people who have no clue to understand the intricacies of history.(Considering most people here are Anglo/American/Turkish (who no longer are Turks.. as they dont look Asian).. and their history goes back a few centuries.. to understand something like Hellenism which goes back thousands of years

[noemon]

Why appease someone who has been unreliable?

You have lost it mate, with all the crap you read, the bombardment of Serbia was unilateral. Greece stuck to alliance procedures. Greece was perhaps one of the few countries that till the end remained reliably clear that she will obey Security Council procedures, and that alone.

The Kingdom of Alexander the Great is not a brand of cheese.

Precisely dude.

Greece would likely join that umbrella before they do, for historical reasons. (Now come on, don't dispute this. Orthodox brothers and traditionally good relations)

Greece is the only player who condemned both America in Kossovo as per international procedures, and Russia in Georgia, openly and actively. Greece's diplomatic power is that she has no clear friends and in all disputes takes the rule of the Law, without distinction, openly and actively, and guides her enemies in all of her disputes to Hague resolution, but for some reason, they all tend to deny.

As for Russia, if she still was the Empire, that would be true, but after Bolshevism, the Greeks were hunted, massacred and kicked out, while before they held there too, the highest offices, ever since then, Russia for the Greeks does not overcome the rule of the Security Council.

[Doomhammer]

You have lost it mate, with all the crap you read, the bombardment of Serbia was unilateral. Greece stuck to alliance procedures. Greece was perhaps one of the few countries that till the end remained reliably clear that she will obey Security Council procedures.

I quote William Hale's book on Turkish Foreign Policy:
(p.264-265)
...The fact that Greece dragged its heels over the NATO action in Kosovo, if it did not actively obstruct it, also gave Turkey the opportunity to show that it was a much more reliable member of the alliance, especially from the US point of view.

Greece is the only player who condemned both America in Kossovo

Therefore you yourself admit that Greece was an unreliable member of NATO in that crisis.

Greece's diplomatic power is that she has no freinds

Is this supposed to be a "no permanent alliances, only permanent interests" Palmerstone-ian platitude?

As for Russia, if she still was the Empire, that would be true, but after Bolshevism, the Greeks were hunted, massacred and kicked out, while before they held there too, the highest offices, ever since then, Russia for the Greeks does not overcome the rule of the Security Council.

While the Bolsheviks were in charge, everyone who was not a member of the party was persecuted. I cannot feel much pity towards the Greeks in Russia considering the fate of the serfs.

and in all disputes takes the rule of the Law, without distinction.

As a general statement: All nations claim that; few have merited it.

And DemonicRage, no one really cares. So be a good little newbie and behave. I've heard worse nonsense in the past and frankly you are a little dog with no fangs. I am sorry. Please come up with more relevant, more accurate and more stinging material.

[noemon]

The crap you read, goes to show your whole attitude, the fact that you equate America with NATO, and fail to understand that Greece reliably stuck to NATOIC procedure when America did not. And after all of NATO was dragged into the game forcibly in contradiction to the Security council, it was from Greek bases of NATO that the bombardment of Serbia commenced.

Therefore you yourself admit that Greece was an unreliable member of NATO in that crisis.

Therefore all sort of sense is lost.

America was the only unreliable member of the NATO alliance, as well as those that followed her, and Turkey was given impetus for sure in America's eyes. But, on the next NATO summit, America was left with Turkey and Slovenia to rant on the nth about FYROM.

Is this supposed to be a "no permanent alliances, only permanent interests" Palmerstone-ian platitude?

This is supposed to be, we obey International Procedure, and that alone.

While the Bolsheviks were in charge, everyone who was not a member of the party was persecuted. I cannot feel much pity towards the Greeks in Russia considering the fate of the serfs.

And who asked for your pity? That is not the issue, here. The Issue here is that your allegation regarding Greco-Russian relations is unfounded.

As a general statement: All nations claim that; few have merited it.

As far as the latest developments are concerned, you can check the news yourself. Russia received the exact same attitude from Greece as did America, openly, without hesitation, and promoted this line of policy as she still does.

Read: your allegation is unfounded.