- 08 Nov 2011 18:35
#13827798
yeah, as Conscript says they are still relevant. The way Stalinists look at things is completely different to the way Trots look at things. Stalinists say 'no' to socialist revolution. Trots advocate it anywhere, even in backward countries where revolution is more likely but socialism more difficult.
Let me give you an example. Indonesia 1965. The Stalinists did their usual 'trust the progressive bourgeoisie, trust the army'. The army then killed a million citizens. See how Stalinism leads to disaster after disaster. It still goes on, no doubt in places like Venezuela. It certainly came into events in Chile in 1973.
They till believe the crap Stalin made up to achieve the opposite of what it purported to.
Also, it's very important to explain to people
1. that socialism has never existed
2. Why it hasnt.
3. That the monstrous Stalinist regime in Russia was a negation of Bolshevism not a continuation. It was a political counter-revolution.
4. Why Stalinism happened and why it meant a short lived regime.
important because most of the arguments against socialism rest on false premises - it's been tried, it was a dictatorship, it failed.
Lenin was very clear:
"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile power of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions (and vertigo, particularly at high altitudes). And there is absolutely nothing terrible, nothing that should give legitimate grounds for the slightest despondency, in admitting this bitter truth; we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism."
my emphasis
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/w ... eb/x01.htm
"in reality it was the Communists above all others who prevented revolution in Spain" George Orwell
Economic Left/Right: -10.0 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.31
Lightman wrote:Not to derail this thread further, but besides disputes over historical happenings, what keeps Trotskyites and Stalinists apart today? What's the use in debating permanent revolution vs. socialism in one country when, in point of fact, there is socialism in no country?
yeah, as Conscript says they are still relevant. The way Stalinists look at things is completely different to the way Trots look at things. Stalinists say 'no' to socialist revolution. Trots advocate it anywhere, even in backward countries where revolution is more likely but socialism more difficult.
Let me give you an example. Indonesia 1965. The Stalinists did their usual 'trust the progressive bourgeoisie, trust the army'. The army then killed a million citizens. See how Stalinism leads to disaster after disaster. It still goes on, no doubt in places like Venezuela. It certainly came into events in Chile in 1973.
They till believe the crap Stalin made up to achieve the opposite of what it purported to.
Also, it's very important to explain to people
1. that socialism has never existed
2. Why it hasnt.
3. That the monstrous Stalinist regime in Russia was a negation of Bolshevism not a continuation. It was a political counter-revolution.
4. Why Stalinism happened and why it meant a short lived regime.
important because most of the arguments against socialism rest on false premises - it's been tried, it was a dictatorship, it failed.
Lenin was very clear:
"But we have not finished building even the foundations of socialist economy and the hostile power of moribund capitalism can still deprive us of that. We must clearly appreciate this and frankly admit it; for there is nothing more dangerous than illusions (and vertigo, particularly at high altitudes). And there is absolutely nothing terrible, nothing that should give legitimate grounds for the slightest despondency, in admitting this bitter truth; we have always urged and reiterated the elementary truth of Marxism - that the joint efforts of the workers of several advanced countries are needed for the victory of socialism."
my emphasis
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/w ... eb/x01.htm
"in reality it was the Communists above all others who prevented revolution in Spain" George Orwell
Economic Left/Right: -10.0 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.31