U.S. to Recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital - Page 36 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14879523
pugsville wrote: There was no massive Arab immigration during the mandate period. We have the births and deaths figures recorded by the British and reported to the league of Nations each year, it simply refutes the idea.
This has been refuted by anyone who has looked at the actual data.

Can you say who refute that?

I just talked to a professor in the Ben Guryon university who studies the bedouines. He suggests the the bedouines in Israel came and went in 3 waves. The current bedouines in the southern Israel migrated from Saudia around the 18th centuary. Aside to his research datagroup he also suggests that the Arabs in Israel as a whole are a mixture of migrated and locals who were of all kinds- including Islamized Jews. But there was a very hard mix all the years between "Israel" and Syria-Lebanon-Egypt region. Where the Arabs from the shore <Gaza--Jaffa> are mainly Egyptians; the Arabs from the north are mixture of locals and Syrians and even Europeans.

Although he focuses at the 18th -19th centuary, a second serious demographic positive impact was done during the British mandate. Based on what do you say there was no positive Arab immigration?. We do aware that the Arab population was never checked properly nor recorded properly. Even today no one knows If there are 2 or 3.5 million Arabs in Samaria (!), sure not back than, whereas the Jewish population was recorded up to every step. The Brits counted and restricted Jews alone, where their statistics of Arabs are more general, mainly counting their presense once they are here. I am aware of this lack of data gap, but we do see heavy positive migration of Arabs near Jewish settlements all the time during the Mandate (that was noted) and their estimated growthrate was distinguishly higher than regional growthrate under the same mandate. 2.5% refers to 1% just few hills away. And we do see many Arabs say they immigrated. Yasser Arafat was in fact born in Egypt and became the Palestinian most famous leader.. Hamas leaders today said they are Egyptian in youtube videos. pugsville, can you note who refute this?
#14879575
^The genious of Palestinian mythology. They claim to be the descenders of the Canaanites, that's is the predecessors of the Israelites. And many Westerners are duped to believe it. Read it in pofo as well

Today many "progressives" dubbed Columbus day as Natives day and connect it to the handy cause of the Palestinians "natives", who are mostly new comers from Syria, Jordan and Egypt





With the growing of Arab oil power, they spend money on the univeristies syllabus and research and this is the fruits. Surprisingly, the mainstream Christians in America don't buy it, either because they have a separate high education system or their instincts tell them it's all lies.


[quote][Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member said, March 31, 1977, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. "

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."  /quote]
#14879633
I see zionists ITT are doing that projection thing that's ever so common from the Israeli state and their hasbarists. Too bad history isn't their friend and Palestinians living in Palestine pre the creation of the Israeli state were recorded by the Brits who were running the show at that time.

Back on topic:
I saw somewhere the PA at a conference have called for a review of all agreements made with Israel as a response to Trump's move. :|
#14879691
LehmanB wrote:Can you say who refute that?

I a second serious demographic positive impact was done during the British mandate. Based on what do you say there was no positive Arab immigration?. We do aware that the Arab population was never checked properly nor recorded properly. Even today no one knows If there are 2 or 3.5 million Arabs in Samaria (!), sure not back than, whereas the Jewish population was recorded up to every step. The Brits counted and restricted Jews alone, where their statistics of Arabs are more general, mainly counting their presense once they are here. I am aware of this lack of data gap, but we do see heavy positive migration of Arabs near Jewish settlements all the time during the Mandate (that was noted) and their estimated growthrate was distinguishly higher than regional growthrate under the same mandate. 2.5% refers to 1% just few hills away. And we do see many Arabs say they immigrated. Yasser Arafat was in fact born in Egypt and became the Palestinian most famous leader.. Hamas leaders today said they are Egyptian in youtube videos. pugsville, can you note who refute this?


We have the data. It's just Rubbish to say there was significant Arab Migration during the Mandate Period. It's many propagandist keep repeating the same old lies and mis truths. Anyone looking at the actual records of the British mandate will clearly see that it's just clearly disproved by the actual data/

The British conducted censuses,

But they also recorded the births and deaths of the Arab Population, which gives the growth rates which accounts for nearly all the population in 1948. Given the census populations the births and deaths statistics recorded year by year reported to the league of Nations clearly show there was no significant Arab migration into the Mandate of palestine.

As for Migration near Settlements, most of the settlements were on the fertile costal plan, during this period there was a revival off the coasts and ports, there was internal migration towards the coast. This holds up regardless of the presence or absence of Jewish settlements. Correlation is not causation.
#14879726
Historians say even after the Roman Emperor changed the name of israel to Palestine that some Jews remained there and some Jewish people were there during the Ottoman rule.

In 64 BCE the Romans conquered Israel, turning it into a Roman province. Although coming under the sway of various empires and home to a variety of ethnicities, the area of ancient Israel was predominantly Jewish until the Jewish–Roman wars of 66–136 CE, during which the Romans expelled most of the Jews from the area and replaced it with the Roman province of Palaestina, beginning the Jewish Diaspora. After this time, Jews became a minority in most regions, except Galilee, and the area became increasingly Christian after the 3rd century, though the percentages of Christians and Jews are unknown, the former perhaps coming to predominate in urban areas, the latter remaining in rural areas Jewish settlements declined from over 160 to 50 by the time of the Muslim conquest. Michael Avi-Yonah calculated that Jews constituted 10–15% of Palestine's population by the time of the Persian invasion of 614, while Moshe Gil claims that Jews constituted the majority of the population until the 7th century Muslim conquest (638 CE).

In 1099 the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and nearby coastal areas, losing and recapturing it for almost 200 years until their final ouster from Acre in 1291. In 1517 the Ottoman Empire conquered it, ruling it until the British conquered it in 1917, and ruled it under the British Mandate until 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was proclaimed, which was made possible by the Zionist movement and its promotion of mass Jewish immigration.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _of_Israel
#14879739
Hindsite wrote:while Moshe Gil claims that Jews constituted the majority of the population until the 7th century Muslim conquest (638 CE).


Laughable claims. Wikipedia is becoming increasing bias in articles concerning Israel/Palestine. With the training of wikipedia editors in Israel. It looks to become more unreliable.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/ ... ist-groups
#14879754
pugsville wrote:Laughable claims. Wikipedia is becoming increasing bias in articles concerning Israel/Palestine. With the training of wikipedia editors in Israel. It looks to become more unreliable.

However, since we don't know for sure, we must rely on the historians. And it appears from the accounts of historians that at least a few Jews over the centuries were there somewhere in the land.
#14879781
Hindsite wrote:However, since we don't know for sure, we must rely on the historians. And it appears from the accounts of historians that at least a few Jews over the centuries were there somewhere in the land.


claiming they were a majority before the muslim conquest is laughable, Palestine was solidly orthodox christian before the Arab conquest, and well after (christians were a majority till after the crusades).

That wikipedia article is appealingly sloppy.
#14879785
@Hindsite

Roni Shaked , Israeli Arab affairs expert says that the Palestinian leadership is creating a historical myth on which to base their claims to the land, but ironically, they use biblical nations as evidence though they don’t believe in the Bible. In addition, the Bible says these nations disappeared. “The average Palestinian from Hebron, Bethlehem, Nablus and other Palestinian cities doesn’t know the biblical nations of the Jebusites, Canaanites and Philistines because they are not mentioned in the Koran,” “They don’t have a clue what their politicians are talking about.”

Mordechai Kedar , a top Israeli expert on Islam.
“With these claims the Muslims believe they have an older historical right to Jerusalem and the land than the Jews, even though this is nonsense. The Muslims want to falsify the biblical promise of the Land of Israel to the Jews; they want to show that they obtained the legal rights to this piece of real estate before the first Hebrew, Abraham, laid claim to this land.”

Most of the Palestinians did not originate in the land and this is “evident from the family name of many Palestinians: al-Masri - (Egypt), al-Iraqi – (Iraq), al-Trabelsi – (Tripoli, Lebanon), al-Khurani – (southern Syria), al-Tzurani – (Tyre [Tzur], Lebanon), al-Tzidoni – (Sidon, Lebanon), al-Zarkawi – (Zarqa, Jordan), etc. Does this mean that the Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Iraquis are also descendents of the Canaanites and Jebusites?”

Gershon Nerel , Messianic Jewish historian, speaks of the Palestinian’s dangerous revision of history and calls this duplicity to reject the validity of the biblical promises regarding the land while using the biblical Jebusites and Canaanites to validate their claims for their ancestry.

Tsvi Sadan , editor of the Hebrew language Messianic magazine Kivun remarked that this is spiritual warfare over the inheritance of the Holy Land. He believes that Israel needs a new public relations strategy.

“The problem is that Israel does not emphasize the religious, historical character of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as the Palestinians do from an Islamic point of view, Israel defends its policies towards the Palestinians primarily on the basis of security.”

Israel explains its religious claim to the land through politics while the Palestinians explain their political claim to the land through religion.
#14879800
The Jews became a minority because Christianity happened.
Where do you think the early Christians came from ? Or where did Jesus came from ?
Christianity was born among the Jewish population, thats why Jews no longer became a majority,they converted.


EDIT:
For the family names, to give a quick famous example why its not accurate.
Al-Khomeini's family is called Al-Hindi, thats is Indian. Though this does not refer to them actually being Indians but rather the fact the his family were tradesmen who constantly migrated between Persia and India.
Family names in the modern day generally comes either from a specific person or characteristic of that person.
To know where the family really comes from, you must look at their family tree and see which tribe they're from (everyone in the middle east trace their origin to some tribe).
Another example is Al-Ghazawi clan in Jordan, their name comes from the word Ghazwah which means conquest, in so their name is those who held conquest. When looking at their family tree, you'd see they come from Quraish tribe which means they're from Hijaz.
Same for my family name, Awad comes from one of our great grandfathers who's name was Awad (the name is still used today by some), on the family tree you'll see on the top the chain name Al-Fadl Al-Khawarizmi Al-Hazzari. Which means we're from the decendents of Mullah Al-Fadl bloodline who comes from Khawarizm and of the Hazzar tribe. So we come from North eastern Persia.
And so on.

For some of the names mentioned in the article.
Al-Zarqawi doesn't mean someone who came from Zarqa Jordan, Zarqa didn't exist until the modern era. Al-Zarqawi comes from the followers of Imam Al-Azraq and many of his followers were called Zarqawiah. So the grandparent of this family must be one of these people. (The Palestinian accent use the letter K instead of Q in pretty much all words)

Al-Tzurani is spelled Zurani and that refers to an area in Syria not in Lebanon which means one of the grandparents of the family either had a relationship to that area or migrated from or to it.
#14880014
pugsville wrote:claiming they were a majority before the muslim conquest is laughable, Palestine was solidly orthodox christian before the Arab conquest, and well after (christians were a majority till after the crusades).

That wikipedia article is appealingly sloppy.

Wikipedia gives two historians account. Michael Avi-Yonah calculated that Jews constituted 10–15% of Palestine's population by the time of the Persian invasion of 614 CE. What do you say to that one?
#14880059
Hindsite wrote:Wikipedia gives two historians account. Michael Avi-Yonah calculated that Jews constituted 10–15% of Palestine's population by the time of the Persian invasion of 614 CE. What do you say to that one?


seems about right. One likes to see what that opinion is based on.

Moshe Gil in a review of his work in the "American Historical review" says (while generally a positive review) "Gil takes a literalists view of numbers given even by legendary or apocalyptic sources; a Byzantine army of 100,000 or even 200,000 at Yarmuk; 500,000 inhabitants in Damcus in1077 l 600,000 deaths from famine in Egypt in 968. Second he seems too ready socioeconomic evidence out of it's chronological matrix;" ... "More disturbing is his view of Islam , uniformly portrayed as harsh, rigid and oppressive". Seems to have questions about accuracy of numbers and bais.
#14880063
pugsville wrote: ... "More disturbing is his view of Islam , uniformly portrayed as harsh, rigid and oppressive". Seems to have questions about accuracy of numbers and bais.


It's not his personal view, it's recordaded by historical records

Among numerous testimonies, we can quote Canon Antoine Morison, from Bar-le-Duc in France. During his travels in the Levant in 1698, he noted that the ancient Land of the Bible could not be conceived from the actual desolated state of "Judea in particular, or Palestine in general." He commented that the Jews in Jerusalem are "there in misery and under the most cruel and shameful slavery," and although a large community, they lived under regular extortion. He observed that descendants of Moors who had been expelled from Spain were numerous in the Holy Land.24
#14880064
East Jerrusalem was "Arab", only between 1948 to 1967 wars, after the Jordanian ethnic cleansing of its Jewish old commuinity.



The ethnic cleansing of the Jews from East Jerusalem. Sometimes Arab propagandists show these images as Arab "Palestinian" ethnic cleansing.

#14880069
Population of Jerusalem across a few years;
1553 => 1958 Jews, 12154 Muslims, 1956 Christians.
1832 => 4000 jews, 13000 Muslims, 3560 Christians (estimated)
1851 => 5580 jews, 12286 Muslims, 7488 Christians. (based on Ottoman records).
Then here we start seeing a transition in the reports, not based on official census but weirdly based on journalists and Rabbis who happened to go there and "estimate" that the Jews were a majority, putting the number of Muslims just 2 years after the Ottoman census to be a third of what the census reported, Christians to be half of what the census reported, and Jews to be nearly double the number the census reported.
It diffidently seems legit.
Then weirdly, the British embassy less than a decade after the official census, and coincidintly around the same time of the birth of the Zionist movement in Europe and the call to return to the holy land, adopted not the official census of the city residents but rather took the estimation done by a French diplomat and put the number of Muslims at less than a third of its real number, and the number of jews at almost double the number, ofcourse it also reduced the population of Christians to a third instead of half.
Weird how demographic shifts can happen so fast within just a year after a census. right ? :knife:
#14880079
noir wrote:It's not his personal view, it's recordaded by historical records


It was a historian reviewing his book in the American Historical Review. Historians can be capable of bias just like everyone one else. And the comment that he was excessive in his view, not that the view without some historical justification. Historical records which one includes in a work, how much weight, is a subjective process. Some people have a tendency to draw the graph and include the points the support their preconceived ideas.
#14880099
pugsville wrote:if you want to go look at the data yourself here's the link. It's a bit laborious. though. horrible scanned documents as image PDFs.

http://digital.library.northwestern.edu ... /stat.html

Thanks for the UN's PDF, I have looked through the "migration" tables for some years, and it needs a sharper look since I had a trouble collecting data without plunging into it. It does not seperates Jews and Arabs, it sometimes concludes only overseas immigration, and in some years conclude palestine et transjordan together in all the datas, or doesn't show immigration table at all. So I couldn't summerize coherent data out of it.

If you will allow me to summerize the points:
There are professors here who claims for a large Arab immigration: 1850's- 1940's.
Only Jews/Europeans have accurate statistics.
Although not accurate, Arabs growthrate was measured as higher than the region, and it can indicate for multiple reasons.
There was positive Arab migration nearby Jewish settelments. Was it all internal immigration?
There were open borders and Israel sits in a crossroad.
Brits rarely doccumented illegal immigration (Jews doccumented themselves here).
There was a written estimation of illegal 10,000 Arab immigrants per year, for the 20th, but it is not an accurate data.

There are Arabs who claim to arrive from different spots.
There are Arab villages and names based on primer location- similar Egyptian town or family suddenly built in Israel in the 1900'.
Aside families who settled continuing their names, some Palestinian leaders biography (Hamas, PLO) does lead to nearby countries.
There is always large movements of Arabs here, to prosper areas: Gulf, Jordan and Israel in the 90th, etc.

All of these assumptions still does not lead to accurate number of Arabs as a whole, nor as their movements. But:
Assuming like you that Israel was relatevely isolated means you really believe in your imaginary borders.
I read and spoke to very good professors about it.
Also, I haven't seen any reasonable professor who rebuke this claim, that the Arab population in Israel is a mixture of regional and local Arabs, and a large movement occured paralel to modern Zionis's times.
When Eli Ashkenazi says in his PHD that the current bedouines are origin in Saudia (Like the Hashemites), and are here for less than 200 years, following his research indicates his agriculture analysis, I do not see a reason he is wrong. Not that I care, either way I am zionist, but I haven't seen a reasonable data backing palestinians claims in almost any field.
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