Let's try this again: I'm a hyper-capitalist, AMA, or come debate me - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15011867
ingliz wrote:Believe what you want, the only reason we could have for believing in God would be that it was necessary to postulate his existence to account for some observed fact or facts. But science can explain everything we observe, and its explanations do not appeal to God or to any other supernatural agency. Hence, there is no reason to believe that God exists. That is to say, the existence of God is an unnecessary hypothesis.


:)

There is plenty of science to support God, and also no one has yet proven that God does not exist. You also have to prove that something is not, the same way you have to prove that something is.
#15011871
The Goldpill wrote:You also have to prove that something is not

If the 'you can't prove a negative' argument means you cannot prove beyond all possible doubt that something does not exist, well, that may (arguably) be true. But so what? That point is irrelevant so far as defending beliefs in supernatural entities against the charge that science and/or reason have established beyond reasonable doubt that they don't exist.


:)
#15011885
ingliz wrote:If the 'you can't prove a negative' argument means you cannot prove beyond all possible doubt that something does not exist, well, that may (arguably) be true. But so what? That point is irrelevant so far as defending beliefs in supernatural entities against the charge that science and/or reason have established beyond reasonable doubt that they don't exist.


:)

Well, it's very important because it proves that none of us have any clue of what's actually going on. Faith, is not a choice. You either have faith in God's existence, or you have faith is his non-existence.
#15011910
The Goldpill wrote:faith

When I am in philosophical mood, I make no claims as to the existence of the supernatural other than to state that there is no evidence to believe in the supernatural.

For practical purposes, I tend to treat absence of evidence as evidence of absence - No dragons fly over my house, there are no fairies at the bottom of my garden, God is not ligged out on my sofa watching the soaps.

You also have to prove that something is not

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.

There is no evidence of gods having ever interacted with the natural world. If you are claiming otherwise, that is an extraordinary claim, and the onus is on you to prove it.


:)
#15011932
ingliz wrote:When I am in philosophical mood, I make no claims as to the existence of the supernatural other than to state that there is no evidence to believe in the supernatural.

For practical purposes, I tend to treat absence of evidence as evidence of absence - No dragons fly over my house, there are no fairies at the bottom of my garden, God is not ligged out on my sofa watching the soaps.


Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.

There is no evidence of gods having ever interacted with the natural world. If you are claiming otherwise, that is an extraordinary claim, and the onus is on you to prove it.


:)


Like I've said, if you can prove to me that you can create something out of nothing, and that you can create life out of non life (AI is still made by life), then I'll consider the non-existence of God.
#15011982
You need to swallow the goldpill. It's not an easy task. But, it's worth it. Once you do so, you'll see the truth and beauty in my words.


I think that sometimes you probably manage to persuade yourself. As I said, at least you're honestly thinking and saying what many Rich unconsciously believe.

Yes, the wealth is the product of man's mind. A mind corrupted with ideas of poverty can never accumulate wealth.


''Corrupted with ideas of poverty''? Hardly, poverty has been the salvation of many in this life.


And I'm not a product of a system, that system is the product of my ideas. Or better, of God's idea. For we only follow his path, his truth.



Only if your God is Mammon, symbolized by the Golden Calf.

All the so called "communist leaders" are aware of this and are playing the exact same game as we are. Make no mistake. There is plenty of money to be made in stealing and killing, like in communism. "WE MUST CEASE THE MEANS OF REPRODUCTION!!" Lmao...


No, looking at the history of the ideology of Communism, their flaws have been others, not the ones you project.


"Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste". Come on man, show some sympathy.


I won't shower curses and vitriol upon you if the Archangel Michael did not, but I will be honest.

My days might be outnumbered, but the ideas will live on. They are eternal. Because they align with nature itself, and so we can not be the enemy of Christianity, the enemy of God. I am, however, the enemy of slave morality. Somehow, the mainstream Christianity got corrupted with certain ideas of moral weakness. Ideas which were never spoken by Jesus.


I've heard that story before and it's as false and putrid as when I first heard it years ago.

If The Rich, are the enemy of God, why did the God make it so that "Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them." This is the Law of Accumulation.


The parable speaks of one's supernatural gifts provided by God, not literal material money.

The labor of a worker is always fairly valued, for the worker in a capitalist system sells his own labor for the highest amount he can get.


I' talking about the surplus value.


Worker does not create all the value.


Actually they do.

Most workers do not even work hard. Those who work hard, are payed more, because they can ask and get more. And somehow, for some reason, you put a blind eye for the sweat, blood and tears of an owner. Most of whom work 16 hours a day, on easy days.


Aside from those businessmen involved in management/administration, I speak more to those who provide Capital, which is taken from the surplus value of previous production to begin with.
#15012047
The Goldpill wrote:I gave you the evidence

What evidence?

This...

"If The Rich, are the enemy of God, why did the God make it so..."

A silly question-begging statement that because some people are born rich and some are born poor this is somehow proof there is a God.

You will have to do better than that.


:lol:
#15012065
ingliz wrote:What evidence?

This...

"If The Rich, are the enemy of God, why did the God make it so..."

A silly question-begging statement that because some people are born rich and some are born poor this is somehow proof there is a God.

You will have to do better than that.


:lol:


Dude, you'll have to use more than those single digits...
What I was referring was this:
"Like I've said, if you can prove to me that you can create something out of nothing, and that you can create life out of non life (AI is still made by life), then I'll consider the non-existence of God."
#15012067
annatar1914 wrote:''Corrupted with ideas of poverty''? Hardly, poverty has been the salvation of many in this life.

That's what Satan would say. It makes sense that you are a communist, because poverty is exactly what those who praise communism get, if they survive the bullet from their comrades, that is.

annatar1914 wrote:Only if your God is Mammon, symbolized by the Golden Calf.

What's ironic is that rich people are not obsessed with wealth as much as most communists are. Wealthy people realize the power and the weaknesses of wealth and money, while greedy communists do not have this knowledge.

annatar1914 wrote:No, looking at the history of the ideology of Communism, their flaws have been others, not the ones you project.

The flaws I mentioned are the major ones, and unavoidable. But, you're right. There are many more flaws with communist teaching.

annatar1914 wrote:I've heard that story before and it's as false and putrid as when I first heard it years ago.

What's false about it?

annatar1914 wrote:The parable speaks of one's supernatural gifts provided by God, not literal material money.

Like I've said, the teaching talks about the Law of Accumulation. This works with many more things like, sex, intellect, popularity, survival, mass of stars, sales and marketing, innovation, and so on... Money is just the most obvious one.

annatar1914 wrote:I' talking about the surplus value.

I know you were. The surplus value is the core flaw of marxist economics. The price of a product is not determined by the amount of work put into its production, but by the subjective contract between a buyer and a seller. You're a salesman, you should know this.

annatar1914 wrote:Actually they do.

Actually they don't.

annatar1914 wrote:Aside from those businessmen involved in management/administration, I speak more to those who provide Capital, which is taken from the surplus value of previous production to begin with.

No it's not.
#15012069
The Goldpill wrote:There is plenty of noble and just in accumulating capital, even at the expense of others (which I do not endorse).

There's a difference between accumulating capital at the expense of others who are your competitors and have the same liberty right to access opportunities as you, which is just, and accumulating it at the expense of others whose rights are being abrogated without just compensation for your benefit, which is unjust.
The strong have the right to exploit the weak.

Only if the weak's rights are not being abrogated without just compensation for the benefit of the strong.
It's the responsibility of the weak to not allow that, but then they wouldn't be weak, would they?

No. It's not the responsibility of the weak to defend themselves against the strong. That is the subhuman animal's mode of existence. In human society, we recognize that it is everyone's responsibility to defend everyone else's rights -- though normally we delegate the heavy lifting to government.
Value of something is measured in its survival power.

No. Value in the economic sense is what something would trade for.
What about Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, Elon Musk, Warren Buffett, and so on...

Carnegie, Ford and Musk all created wealth, though certainly not as much as they accumulated. Buffett was just more astute than others at discerning who would be most successful at placing their pockets in the path of wealth others created, and placing his own pockets there, too.
Not the noblest, but very very close to it.

Not even close.
If there is no Hell and if poor people are not in it, then why are they the ones who suffer the most?

Because they have the least material wherewithal to secure what they need to avoid suffering. That's almost tautological.
Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about.

Rich has some honesty, true.
I would just add that the land is not stolen, but conquered.

I.e., taken by force, against the will and abrogating the rights of those who would otherwise be at liberty to use it. Which is different from stealing how, exactly...?
If one can not protect the land for itself, it does not belong to them in the first place.

You need to learn the difference between ownership and brute, animal possession.
The ownership of anything, especially land, is measured by ones power (read control) over it.

No it isn't. Google "ownership definition" and start reading.
#15012073
The Goldpill wrote:that you can create life out of non life

Just for you...

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:)
Last edited by ingliz on 14 Jun 2019 17:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15012074
The Goldpill wrote:Like I've said, if you can prove to me that you can create something out of nothing, and that you can create life out of non life (AI is still made by life), then I'll consider the non-existence of God.

God's existence needs more explanation than his non-existence. IOW, while science can't yet explain everything, the bits it can't explain are easier to explain than God. Once, long ago, it might have been the case that gods made explanation simpler. But we have learned a lot since then, and all of it points to the conclusion that the existence of gods is less likely than their non-existence.
#15012081
Truth To Power wrote:God's existence needs more explanation than his non-existence. IOW, while science can't yet explain everything, the bits it can't explain are easier to explain than God. Once, long ago, it might have been the case that gods made explanation simpler. But we have learned a lot since then, and all of it points to the conclusion that the existence of gods is less likely than their non-existence.


Cool story, bro.

Image
#15012088
The Goldpill wrote:and you only addressed the first part conditional.

The 'something from nothing' was addressed in a previous post...

The positive energy of the matter is exactly balanced by the negative energy of the gravitational field.

The universe consists of essentially nothing - Net energy in the Universe is 0.

½MV2 – MgH = 0

"Quantum uncertainty allows the temporary creation of bubbles of energy, or pairs of particles (such as electron-positron pairs) out of nothing, provided that they disappear in a short time. The less energy is involved, the longer the bubble can exist. Curiously, the energy in a gravitational field is negative, while the energy locked up in matter is positive. If the universe is exactly flat*, then as Tryon pointed out the two numbers cancel out, and the overall energy of the universe is precisely zero. In that case, the quantum rules allow it to last forever."

John Gribbin, Inflation for Beginners, Berkeley Lab, Smoot Group


* The flatness parameter (O) is defined in such a way that if spacetime is exactly flat then O = 1.

If the Universe starts out with the parameter less than one, O gets smaller as the Universe ages, while if it starts out bigger than one O gets bigger as the Universe ages. The fact that O is between 0.1 and 1 today means that in the first second of the Big Bang it was precisely 1 to within 1 part in 10^{60}. This makes the value of the density parameter in the beginning one of the most precisely determined numbers in all of science, and the natural inference is that the value is, and always has been, exactly 1.



:)
Last edited by ingliz on 14 Jun 2019 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
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