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#15090129
Doug64 wrote:Right, because there’s no such thing as broad cultural differences.


Yes, there are.

I already pointed out that Africa has literally thousands of cultures, with many broad cultural differences. But these are ignored. But the differences between the Netherlands and other Scandinavian countries are supposedly huge.

I asked for the definition, not what you think such a definition shouldn’t be based on. So let me ask again, just what would you consider a "non-Eurocentric" definition of freedom?


And I answered that.

One that was not based on European history, the oppressions caused by European powers, and the rights exercised by the European public to defeat said oppression.

Even within an Anglo country, I can see how “freedom” would be contentious. For example, would you consider the laws against lynching to be a limit on freedom (as some white US citizens do) or do you consider the posse to be a tool of oppression, as many black US residents do?
#15090137
Doug64 wrote:I came at this from a Great Courses lecture series that encompassed a lot more than just corporate culture, but rather the larger culture in which businesses—and other institutions such as schools—are embedded and how that larger culture can impact behaviors and attitudes of any subcultures. (Good thing, or the course would have been rather boring.) Certainly much of the focus is likely to be on how businesses involved in international trade can make use of it, that’s where most day-to-day cross-cultural friction and misunderstandings are likely to be happening these days. But it’s hardly limited to “corporate” culture.


I will direct you to this part of my initial answer:
Ultimately, I suspect the aim is to serve corporate management and international decision-making rather than providing any kind of comprehensive sociological picture of world cultures at an academically exploitable level (it might still be able to become an asset for the latter, though)

I am not denying that there is worth in the findings when it comes to study organisations as a whole, management being very close to those in its applications. However, it is ultimately relevant to corporate culture since the subjects of the study were managers asked about theirs views on leadership. From the same book I previously quoted (when discussing methodology):
The purpose of focus groups was to learn what the middle managers in each culture thought about outstanding leadership. The focus groups provided participants with an opportunity to reflect on and formally discuss effective, above-average, and outstanding managers.

The purpose of the interviews was to explore, in some depth, how managers in each culture defined leadership, explicitly or implicitly.

While the findings shine light on certain aspects of corporate culture, and to a greater extent perhaps organisational culture as a whole, it is undeniable that their primary and most efficient use is in the corporate field. They may be used to a secondary degree as a presentation of specific aspects of a culture, but this I already stated in my initial answer, reposted in italic.

Another aspect of the study that leads me to believe it is primarily addressed to the business world is its willingness to group cultures together in clusters which are, as already stated by others in this thread, ignorant of the complexity and plurality of cultures in a region. And this is because - I suspect - the researchers seek to cluster countries before cultures into world regions, the likes of those exploited by international firms for their worldwide operations. Under these circumstances it would make sense to group many countries (sometimes geographically distant from each other) together and to apply careful division in certain world regions. The most striking example being Europe, since cultural insensitivity could yield much greater negative financial results than in areas such as Africa or Latin America, even though these clusters remain nominal in my opinion. And that's the biggest giveaway: these clusters do not try to properly define groups of cultures but rather to name areas with corporate cultural similarities. In this sense, there is little regard for ethno-linguistic or religious groups (little, but not none) since isolating and defining them is not the goal of the GLOBE project. This makes it so that I do not find any immediate value in these studies alone when it comes to comprehending the diversity of world cultures and compare them. These studies are still an interesting read for those that can make something out of it efficiently though, that is... you guessed it.

A word of caution though: while I did look into some GLOBE works I most definitely did not read everything and there are subtleties I probably did not grasp, but what I have read of the methodology and the described aim makes me believe that, at least, one ought to be cautious when arguing based on these results for anything other than corporate culture.
#15090206
@D.U.I. I think we might be talking past each other a bit here. Certainly one of the points stressed in the lecture series was practical application rather than scholarly research for its own sake, but one of the fundamental principles of science and scholarship is that facts trump theory, and if it works, if it is useful, then it must be in some sense valid.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, there are.

I already pointed out that Africa has literally thousands of cultures, with many broad cultural differences. But these are ignored.

There are some pretty large differences between the US, Canada, and Australia as well. That doesn’t mean we aren’t all part of the Anglo cluster.

But the differences between the Netherlands and other Scandinavian countries are supposedly huge.

Oddly enough, I can’t find a single list of Scandinavian countries that includes the Netherlands—some of them just list Norway, Sweden, and Denmark; some include Finland, Iceland, and Greenland. Look for Nordic countries instead, and you pretty much get all those, but no Netherlands. Also, Dutch is a Germanic language, not Scandinavian.

And I answered that.

One that was not based on European history, the oppressions caused by European powers, and the rights exercised by the European public to defeat said oppression.

Ad once again, you told what it supposedly isn’t, as in, “One that is not based on etc.” Tell us what it is.

Even within an Anglo country, I can see how “freedom” would be contentious. For example, would you consider the laws against lynching to be a limit on freedom (as some white US citizens do) or do you consider the posse to be a tool of oppression, as many black US residents do?

Got it, you don’t have an answer, so you’re deflecting and making excuses. And even throwing in a pointless “racist!” charge as well.
#15090225
Doug64 wrote:There are some pretty large differences between the US, Canada, and Australia as well. That doesn’t mean we aren’t all part of the Anglo cluster.


No, the differences are not that big. For example, we all speak the same language.

Africa has thousands of languages. And yet all these differences are ignored.

Can you provide a logical reason for ignoring all the cultural differences in Africa, but not Europe?

Oddly enough, I can’t find a single list of Scandinavian countries that includes the Netherlands—some of them just list Norway, Sweden, and Denmark; some include Finland, Iceland, and Greenland. Look for Nordic countries instead, and you pretty much get all those, but no Netherlands. Also, Dutch is a Germanic language, not Scandinavian.


The fact that other Eurocentric taxonomies also make the same error does not mean it is not an error.

The differences between the Netherlands and Denmark, for example, are far less than the differences between Mexico and Chile.

Ad once again, you told what it supposedly isn’t, as in, “One that is not based on etc.” Tell us what it is.


That is because you asked what a non-Eurocentric definition would be.

Got it, you don’t have an answer, so you’re deflecting and making excuses. And even throwing in a pointless “racist!” charge as well.


I am thinking about starting a thread about how conservatives whine about being accused of racism in order to avoid debate. This seems like another example.

Another example of how your definition of freedom is Eurocentric is that it focuses on individual freedoms instead of collective freedoms.
#15091009
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, the differences are not that big. For example, we all speak the same language.

Africa has thousands of languages. And yet all these differences are ignored.

Can you provide a logical reason for ignoring all the cultural differences in Africa, but not Europe?

Please provide your evidence that there are radical cultural differences in sub-Saharan Africa, by the ten measuring sticks (Identity, Authority, Risk, Achievement, Time, Communication, Lifestyle, Rules, Expressiveness, & Social Norms), such that the subcontinent should be divvied up the way Europe is.

The fact that other Eurocentric taxonomies also make the same error does not mean it is not an error.

If they all do it, it's probably not an error

The differences between the Netherlands and Denmark, for example, are far less than the differences between Mexico and Chile.

Again, provide proof for your assertion.

That is because you asked what a non-Eurocentric definition would be.

Yes, and you have so far failed to provide one.

Next up, the Eastern European/Central Asian culture cluster.

Cultural Values
  • As with all of the clusters, you can find some research on all of the cultural dimensions related to some or all of the nations in the eastern European/Central Asian cluster. A few of the ones that are most important to note are collectivism, high power distance, competitive, and particularist—each of which reflect the ways this culture has learned to address survival.
  • For the most part, this cluster is collectivist more than individualist, but what’s interesting is that it’s primarily a family collectivism (kinship family). Therefore, it’s unlikely that someone will behave as much as a collectivist in the work environment as someone might from an Asian or Arab culture—but the loyalty to one’s extended family is significant. Families had a strong tie as they picked up and moved from one place to another.
  • Power distance, which we usually see with collectivism, outlines who has the authority to care for and give direction to the rest of the family and clan. This cluster is high power distance.
  • The eastern European/Central Asian cluster is competitive because this is a survival technique against weather, geography, emperors, and other clans. This cluster is also particularist; it is clear that different rules should apply to one’s kin than to just anyone. This stems from nomadic roots.

Dos and Taboos
  • English is widely spoken or understood, but it is always good to learn a few words of greeting and thanks in the specific language. This goes a long way toward respecting the unique heritage.
  • If you happened to be served something that you find unpalatable while dining at someone’s house, your best bet is to eat it anyway. Serving guests the best and most expensive food is often a point of pride in eastern European households, and you risk offending your host—or, worse, hurting his or her feelings. Fortunately, bread is an almost constant accompaniment to any meal, so when the fish is too fishy or the caviar is too salty, you have something with which to smother the flavor.
  • Expect to see very expressive, gregarious greetings among family and close friends, such as a noisy embrace and kissing several times on the cheeks, including men to men as well as men to women, but it is common to just give a stranger a handshake.

Ranking & Score
Nation / Ranking / Score

Albania 38 7.84
Armenia 54 7.42
Belarus 92 6.65
Bosnia & Hertzegovina 55 7.30
Bulgaria 39 7.79
Croatia 37 7.86
Cyprus 36 7.93
Czech Republic 21 8.34
Georgia 41 7.74
Greece 57 7.73
Hungary 45 7.65
Kazakhstan 73 6.90
Kosovo — —
Kyrgyzstan 67 6.98
Macedonia — —
Montenegro 53 7.43
Poland 40 7.78
Russia 114 6.34
Serbia 58 7.30
Slovakia 33 8.20
Slovenia 35 7.97
Ukraine 118 6.26

Personal Freedom
Nation / Personal Freedom / Rule of Law / Security & Safety / Movement / Religious Freedom / Assoc., Assem., & Civil Soc. / Expression & Information / Identity & Relationships

Albania 8.01 5.3 9.3 10.0 9.2 10.0 8.6 5.8
Armenia 7.15 4.9 9.1 8.3 6.2 6.5 7.2 8.2
Belarus 6.66 5.1 9.2 8.3 5.2 2.5 5.8 9.0
Bosnia & Hertzegovina 8.04 5.5 9.1 8.3 8.5 9.5 8.7 9.0
Bulgaria 8.04 4.9 9.8 10.0 7.1 9.5 8.8 8.2
Croatia 8.45 5.7 9.9 10.0 8.1 9.0 8.6 10.0
Cyprus 8.18 6.6 9.8 7.5 7.2 8.5 9.5 8.3
Czech Republic 8.92 7.8 9.9 10.0 7.8 9.5 9.5 8.2
Georgia 7.53 5.4 9.1 6.7 7.2 8.5 8.6 8.2
Greece 8.07 5.8 8.7 10.0 7.3 10.0 8.7 8.3
Hungary 8.04 5.4 8.7 10.0 7.3 9.0 8.8 10.0
Kazakhstan 6.69 4.5 9.0 8.3 5.5 4.0 6.2 9.0
Kosovo — — — — — — — —
Kyrgyzstan 7.05 3.8 8.5 8.3 7.1 — 6.2 10.0
Macedonia — — — — — — — —
Montenegro 8.03 5.2 9.1 10.0 8.9 — 7.7 9.0
Poland 8.32 6.4 9.7 10.0 6.3 9.0 8.6 9.0
Russia 5.90 4.0 7.7 5.0 4.6 5.0 6.1 9.0
Serbia 7.71 4.4 9.3 10.0 8.3 8.0 8.5 8.2
Slovakia 8.54 6.1 9.6 10.0 7.7 10.0 9.3 9.0
Slovenia 8.78 6.5 9.7 10.0 9.0 10.0 9.4 9.0
Ukraine 6.56 4.5 7.9 6.7 5.9 5.5 7.4 9.0

Economic Freedom
Nation / Economic Freedom / Size of Government / Legal System & Prop. Rights / Sound Money / Freedom to Trade Int'l / Regulations

Albania 7.67 7.5 5.1 9.6 8.3 7.8
Armenia 7.70 7.4 5.9 9.5 8.2 7.5
Belarus 6.64 6.1 5.3 7.4 6.8 7.5
Bosnia & Hertzegovina 6.69 5.6 4.2 8.3 7.8 7.5
Bulgaria 7.54 7.1 5.3 9.4 8.1 7.7
Croatia 7.26 5.7 5.6 9.6 8.2 7.3
Cyprus 7.68 6.9 6.1 9.4 8.3 7.7
Czech Republic 7.75 6.7 6.4 9.3 8.2 8.2
Georgia 7.94 7.6 6.3 8.9 8.7 8.1
Greece 6.59 4.4 5.7 8.0 7.7 7.2
Hungary 7.27 5.4 6.0 9.7 8.0 7.3
Kazakhstan 7.10 7.0 5.3 8.9 6.6 7.7
Kosovo — — — — — —
Kyrgyzstan 6.92 7.0 4.3 9.3 7.4 6.7
Macedonia — — — — — —
Montenegro 6.84 5.9 4.9 8.1 8.2 7.0
Poland 7.24 5.6 5.8 9.7 7.9 7.2
Russia 6.78 6.3 4.8 9.3 6.8 6.6
Serbia 6.89 6.4 5.0 8.2 7.6 7.2
Slovakia 7.51 6.5 5.7 9.5 8.3 7.6
Slovenia 7.15 5.3 6.2 9.4 7.9 7.0
Ukraine 5.96 7.2 4.4 5.0 6.8 6.4

Averages
Rank: 55.30
Score: 7.47

Personal Freedom: 7.73
Rule of Law: 5.39
Security & Safety: 9.16
Movement: 8.87
Religious Freedom: 7.22
Association, Assembly, & Civil Society: 8.00
Expression & Information: 8.11
Identity & Relationships: 8.72

Economic Freedom: 7.16
Size of Government: 6.38
Legal System & Property Rights: 5.42
Sound Money: 8.83
Freedom to Trade Internationally: 7.79
Regulations: 7.36
#15091114
Doug64 wrote:Please provide your evidence that there are radical cultural differences in sub-Saharan Africa, by the ten measuring sticks (Identity, Authority, Risk, Achievement, Time, Communication, Lifestyle, Rules, Expressiveness, & Social Norms), such that the subcontinent should be divvied up the way Europe is.

Again, provide proof for your assertion.


No.

Since you provided the original claim (i.e. that these taxonomic divisions are real), I think you have the burden of proof.

If they all do it, it's probably not an error


Appeal to popularity. Something is not right simply because many believe it.

Yes, and you have so far failed to provide one.


I did. What does “not Eurocentric” mean?
#15091262
And now on to the next cultural cluster, the Latin Europeans:

Latin Europe versus the United States
  • Americans have a love affair with vacationing in France. Paris continues to be the top international destination visited by Americans of anywhere in the world, and Americans love French wines, cheeses, baguettes, and crepes. In addition, France is perhaps the United State’s longest-term ally.
  • However, Americans routinely feel like they get treated rudely when they visit France. Some of what’s going on are cultural differences—such as the French being even more direct than Americans already are—but there are some far deeper issues that characterize the French and Latin European cluster as a whole that might shed some light on the friction between the United States and France (and, to a lesser degree, the United States and Spain and Italy and the other countries in this cluster).
  • One of the most distinctive characteristics of the Latin European cluster as compared to other parts of Europe is its paternalistic orientation. Sociologist Max Weber described paternalism as a parent, king, or feudal lord who provided protection in exchange for loyalty and obedience. Most typically, the paternal role is carried out by men, and this has historically been the case in Latin Europe.
  • Gender equality has been slower to come to many Latin European companies and governments than to other places around the world. This is certainly changing, but on the whole, the Latin European cultures have been very male-dominated.
  • The paternalistic style of the Latin European cluster is in direct conflict with the Anglo emphasis on individualism and low power distance. The French and the rest of the Latin European cluster are much more collectivist than the other European cultures. The U.S. hyper-individualism flies in the face of what the paternalistic approach sees as being the most appropriate way to help everyone survive.Many Americans have been scolded for using high school French while visiting Paris.
  • Deep economic challenges in recent years combined with Latin Europeans gaining increased exposure to different models of governing and leadership is making the paternalism of ancient Europe harder to sustain. But don’t expect to see this characteristic go away anytime soon.

Dos and Taboos
  • In terms of dining etiquette, don’t rush through your eating and be a bit more attuned to good manners than you might typically. Just enjoy the meal.
  • As with most cultures, speaking a few words in the local language goes a long way. This is especially true in these cultures.
  • When you go into a shop, don’t make demands—for example, “I need some aspirin.” Instead, given the paternalism of this region, it’s far more effective to put yourself in a place of need and to ask for help. Say something like, “I wonder if you can help me. I’m trying to find the aspirin. Do you know where I might find that?”

Ranking & Score
Nation / Ranking / Score

Andorra — —
France 33 8.02
Israel 46 7.61
Italy 32 8.04
Malta 20 8.37
Moldova 71 6.93
Monaco — —
Portugal 26 8.27
Romania 30 8.11
San Marino — —
Spain 29 8.12

Personal Freedom
Nation / Personal Freedom / Rule of Law / Security & Safety / Movement / Religious Freedom / Assoc., Assem., & Civil Soc. / Expression & Information / Identity & Relationships

Andorra — — — — — — — —
France 8.69 6.8 9.4 10.0 7.3 10.0 9.3 10.0
Israel 7.70 6.8 9.0 6.7 5.9 10.0 8.5 6.3
Italy 8.67 6.5 9.9 10.0 8.0 9.5 9.1 9.0
Malta 8.77 7.0 9.8 10.0 8.4 10.0 8.0 9.2
Moldova 7.20 4.5 9.2 8.3 6.0 6.0 7.4 10.0
Monaco — — — — — — — —
Portugal 9.02 7.2 9.9 10.0 9.4 9.5 9.6 9.0
Romania 8.54 6.3 9.8 10.0 7.9 10.0 9.0 8.2
San Marino — — — — — — — —
Spain 8.69 7.0 9.4 10.0 8.0 9.5 9.2 9.0

Economic Freedom
Nation / Economic Freedom / Size of Government / Legal System & Prop. Rights / Sound Money / Freedom to Trade Int'l / Regulations

Andorra — — — — — —
France 7.35 4.8 7.0 9.5 8.2 7.3
Israel 7.53 6.5 6.2 9.4 8.2 7.4
Italy 7.41 6.1 5.8 9.4 8.2 7.5
Malta 7.97 7.1 6.5 9.5 8.4 8.3
Moldova 6.66 6.4 4.3 8.1 7.5 6.9
Monaco — — — — — —
Portugal 7.52 6.2 6.8 9.4 8.3 6.8
Romania 7.68 7.0 6.1 9.4 8.4 7.5
San Marino — — — — — —
Spain 7.55 6.1 6.8 9.4 8.1 7.5

Averages
Rank: 35.88
Score: 7.93

Personal Freedom: 8.41
Rule of Law: 6.51
Security & Safety: 9.55
Movement: 9.38
Religious Freedom: 7.61
Association, Assembly, & Civil Society: 9.31
Expression & Information: 8.11
Identity & Relationships: 8.84

Economic Freedom: 7.46
Size of Government: 6.28
Legal System & Property Rights: 6.19
Sound Money: 9.26
Freedom to Trade Internationally: 8.16
Regulations: 7.40

Pants-of-dog wrote:No.

Since you provided the original claim (i.e. that these taxonomic divisions are real), I think you have the burden of proof.

In my original post I provided a link to the study that divvied the world's nations among the ten cultural clusters, feel free to peruse it. I'll await a similar link backing your own assertion.

Appeal to popularity. Something is not right simply because many believe it.

In the soft sciences, consensus is the best available. And the consensus of the relevant scholars clearly is that the Netherlands isn't a Nordic country.

I did. What does “not Eurocentric” mean?

It means "not Eurocentric," no less and no more. You might as well try to define "woman" as "not a man." Let me know when you actually have a definition of your "not Eurocentric" freedom.
#15091273
@Doug64

Quote the relevant text from the link that discusses why Europe has so many divisions buy Africa does not.

Or any other problem that I mentioned. I am not choosy.

I was not discussing whether or not The Netherlands were a Nordic or German country. I was discussing the incorrect idea that The Netherlands and Germany were so radically different that the6 would constitute two different groups, but other groups that were even more different were considered one group. That is almost certainly not the consensus by social scientists who actually come from Africa and Latin America.

And finally, “non-Eurocentric” means anything that is not based on ideas that generalise from the European experience. You may not accept this definition, but that is what the definition is.
#15091930
So now on to the next cultural cluster, the Latin Americans:

Latin American Culture
  • Professional care and self-treatment are not valued nearly as much among the Latin American cluster as they are in other clusters. For example, most Hispanic families wouldn’t think about leaving their loved ones to be cared for exclusively by a professional. It is part of Latin culture to provide care for family and, in particular, for a wife to care for her husband.
  • Latin America is a collectivist culture: You do what’s best for the group of which you’re part. But most of all, it’s a family-oriented collectivist culture, so there’s less devotion to institutional groups like workplaces and churches—family is everything.
  • There is lots of passionate debate about immigration in the United States, and with good reason, but realize that applying rules regardless of one’s family and situation is foreign to the Latin American particularistic approach to their families.
  • The paternalistic nature of Latin American culture combined with a family-oriented collectivism means that family, extended family, and godparents all play a crucial role in caring for each other—whether it’s during childhood, in the hospital, or during retirement. There’s a fairly low trust of those outside the family network or close friends.
  • Latin Americans have historically been effective at spanning multiple cultures and identities. The shared influence of Europe and North America combined with the indigenous Native American cultures on the Latin identity demonstrates this.
  • It’s difficult to overestimate the powerful role of family in Latin American culture—whether it’s caring for each other in time of illness, having many children, or carrying on the Latin European importance of food and sharing meals together. Everything revolves around the family.
  • One difference among many Latin American cultures as compared to Latin European ones is that the main meal of the day is often the noonday meal. A long meal followed by the infamous siesta has been a standing part of many Latin cultures, though it is getting supplanted by global working culture.
  • Family trumps work. At the workplace, supervisors are expected to attend family functions of employees and to give special consideration to what happens to the family if an employee is fired.
  • The Latin American culture tends toward high-context communication. Some Anglos might describe their communication as talking in circles—telling lots of stories and taking a while to get to the point—but this is because providing the background is important. If you’ve ever received directions when visiting Latin America, you may have found the directions very high context.
  • However, what throws many visitors is that Latin Americans say things that other cultures might consider rude. For example, in Venezuela, it is very common for people to talk openly about physical appearance, so people going to Venezuela or dealing with Venezuelans would be wise to understand that whatever you look like may well be an open conversation topic.
  • Compared to much of the English-speaking world, people from areas of Latin America may demonstrate more relaxed and casual behavior and be more comfortable with loud talk, exaggerated gestures, and physical contact. In addition, many Latin American people have a smaller sense of personal space than people from English-speaking cultures. It may be rude to step away from someone when they are stepping closer.
  • On the whole, Latin Americans tend to be more socially conservative than North Americans or Europeans. This is certainly changing, and as with any of these generalizations, we have to be careful not to take this too far.
  • In some ways, Latin Americans have more closely adhered to the Roman Catholicism brought to them than the Italians, Spanish, and French have. Roman Catholicism was mixed together with a traditional conservatism of the indigenous cultures across the region, and on top of that, Christian Pentecostalism, which is one of the most conservative streams of the Christian faith, has a huge following across Latin America.
  • With the exceptions of places like beaches in Rio de Janeiro or some of the major urban centers, Latin Americans dress more conservatively and take a more traditional outlook on the roles of men and women and the family structure.
  • Alongside this social conservatism is a fiesta mindset that is contagious. It’s hard to stand still listening to the upbeat music found in many regions across Latin cultures. Bright, bold colors permeate the art scene, and the optimism of their outlook comes through in their laid-back, ready-to-celebrate manner.
  • Many of these characteristics apply to Latinos living in the United States as much as those living across Central and South America, but beware that their identity may be equally shaped by life in North America.

Dos and Taboos
  • The American “come here” gesture of palm upward with the fingers curled back can be considered a romantic solicitation.
  • Lighten up over schedules and time—both when you’re waiting for someone or when you’re the guest.
  • Don’t underestimate the importance of building relationships.


Ranking & Score
Nation / Ranking / Score

Argentina 77 6.86
Bolivia 97 6.61
Brazil 109 6.48
Chile 28 8.15
Colombia 71 6.93
Costa Rica 43 7.70
Cuba — —
Dominican Republic 68 6.95
Ecuador 82 6.82
El Salvador 75 6.89
Guatemala 65 7.07
Honduras 84 6.81
Mexico 92 6.65
Nicaragua 77 6.86
Panama 44 7.69
Paraguay 73 6.90
Peru 49 7.55
Uruguay 41 7.74
Venezuela 161 3.80

Personal Freedom
Nation / Personal Freedom / Rule of Law / Security & Safety / Movement / Religious Freedom / Assoc., Assem., & Civil Soc. / Expression & Information / Identity & Relationships

Argentina 8.04 5.7 8.8 10.0 7.8 7.5 8.7 10.0
Bolivia 7.07 3.1 8.6 8.3 8.4 6.5 8.4 10.0
Brazil 6.74 4.7 6.7 10.0 7.4 6.5 8.5 6.7
Chile 8.41 6.5 9.4 10.0 9.3 10.0 9.2 5.8
Colombia 7.18 4.4 5.4 10.0 8.7 10.0 8.4 10.0
Costa Rica 7.99 6.6 7.5 10.0 8.1 9.5 9.6 7.3
Cuba — — — — — — — —
Dominican Republic 6.98 4.4 8.3 8.3 8.5 7.5 8.0 5.8
Ecuador 7.36 4.3 8.6 10.0 7.8 6.5 7.9 9.2
El Salvador 6.62 4.4 5.8 8.3 9.1 8.0 8.9 6.7
Guatemala 6.56 4.0 5.9 10.0 8.5 7.5 8.2 6.7
Honduras 6.47 3.2 6.5 10.0 8.7 8.5 6.5 6.7
Mexico 6.38 3.9 5.4 10.0 7.6 8.5 7.7 6.7
Nicaragua 6.72 3.8 8.9 10.0 7.9 4.0 7.0 6.7
Panama 7.72 4.4 8.7 10.0 8.4 8.5 8.7 9.0
Paraguay 6.78 4.1 7.6 10.0 8.2 7.5 7.7 5.0
Peru 7.61 4.7 8.4 10.0 8.2 9.0 8.7 7.5
Uruguay 8.42 6.6 8.9 10.0 8.5 7.5 9.4 10.0
Venezuela 5.03 2.1 6.3 6.7 6.9 6.5 5.1 4.2

Economic Freedom
Nation / Economic Freedom / Size of Government / Legal System & Prop. Rights / Sound Money / Freedom to Trade Int'l / Regulations

Argentina 5.67 5.7 4.0 6.5 6.5 5.6
Bolivia 6.14 5.9 3.5 9.3 7.0 4.9
Brazil 6.23 5.7 4.5 9.4 7.1 4.4
Chile 7.89 8.2 6.4 9.5 8.3 7.0
Colombia 6.68 7.2 3.9 8.2 6.7 7.3
Costa Rica 7.41 7.0 5.8 9.8 8.0 6.5
Cuba — — — — — —
Dominican Republic 6.92 6.4 4.1 9.5 7.9 6.6
Ecuador 6.28 6.5 4.0 8.3 6.5 6.0
El Salvador 7.16 8.4 3.6 9.9 7.6 6.3
Guatemala 7.57 9.4 4.3 9.5 8.0 6.5
Honduras 7.16 8.8 3.7 9.1 7.2 6.9
Mexico 6.93 7.9 4.2 7.9 7.6 7.0
Nicaragua 7.01 6.6 4.4 9.1 7.8 7.0
Panama 7.66 7.9 5.2 9.7 8.7 6.9
Paraguay 7.03 8.3 3.9 9.4 7.3 6.2
Peru 7.49 7.5 4.7 9.7 8.2 7.2
Uruguay 7.05 6.3 5.2 9.0 7.9 6.8
Venezuela 2.58 4.6 2.0 0.7 3.2 2.5

Averages
Rank: 74.22
Score: 6.91

Personal Freedom: 7.12
Rule of Law: 4.49
Security & Safety: 7.54
Movement: 9.53
Religious Freedom: 8.22
Association, Assembly, & Civil Society: 7.75
Expression & Information: 8.14
Identity & Relationships: 7.44

Economic Freedom: 6.71
Size of Government: 7.13
Legal System & Property Rights: 4.30
Sound Money: 8.58
Freedom to Trade Internationally: 7.31
Regulations: 6.20

Pants-of-dog wrote:Quote the relevant text from the link that discusses why Europe has so many divisions buy Africa does not.

Or any other problem that I mentioned. I am not choosy.

We can compare sources once you've provided links to back your own assertions.

I was not discussing whether or not The Netherlands were a Nordic or German country. I was discussing the incorrect idea that The Netherlands and Germany were so radically different that the6 would constitute two different groups, but other groups that were even more different were considered one group. That is almost certainly not the consensus by social scientists who actually come from Africa and Latin America.

Except that the Netherlands and Germany are not that radically different. They are, in fact, both in the Germanic cluster.

And finally, “non-Eurocentric” means anything that is not based on ideas that generalise from the European experience. You may not accept this definition, but that is what the definition is.

No, that is not a definition--you cannot define something by purely negative traits. Unless you would care to define, say, "star" by telling me what it isn't?
#15092023
@Doug64

Quote the relevant text.

And again, you are missing the point about the Netherlands and Germany. I can repeat it a fourth time if you wish.

And yes, you can define somethings with negative traits, which is why we know what “sugar free cola” is.
#15093888
And here's the Confucian culture cluster:

Confucian Cultural Values
  • There are some stark differences between some of the countries within the Confucian cultures. For example, history is filled with examples of strife between the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese.
  • Chinese and Japanese companies have a very hard time working together. Part of this stems from long-standing prejudice and tension between the two countries, but it also stems from some differences along cultural values.
  • China is a much more of a “being” culture, and Japan is one of the highest “doing” cultures in the world. In addition, uncertainty avoidance is much higher in Singapore and Japan than in China, and Japan is more universalist while China is more particularist.
  • Singapore is included in this cluster because of the predominant influence of ethnic Chinese people in Singapore—they’re the majority—but Singapore is also strongly influenced by its sizable Malay and Indian cultures, so it sometimes fits better when clustered with other Southeast Asian cultures.
  • Three cultural values in particular are extremely important for understanding the Confucian culture: collectivism, long-term orientation, and high context/neutral.
  • If the Anglo cluster is the most individualist cluster in the world, then the Confucian cluster is the most collectivist. Recall that collectivism is when decisions and choices are made in light of what’s best for the groups of which you’re part—rather than primarily oriented around what’s best for oneself.
  • Where a child goes to school, whom he or she marries, and the career he or she pursues are not first and foremost about pursuing individual dreams, but about what most impacts one’s family.
  • Many individualist cultures thrive on talking about relationships with no strings attached. From a Confucian culture’s perspective, a relationship without any strings attached is no relationship. Friendship and familial relationships are built on commitment and the expectation that there will be reciprocal commitment. Living itself is seen as a communal act.
  • Japan and Korea are some of the most homogenous cultures in the world. This is both a reflection of them being tight cultures—another cultural dimension—and a different form of collectivism. There’s also a strong commitment to cultural purity.
  • The Confucian cultures also score high on long-term orientation, one of the ways we compared time from one place to another. China, Hong Kong, Japan, and Korea sacrifice short-term benefits for long-term prosperity and success. People don’t spend money they don’t have, and governments and businesses tend to have lots of cash. Keep this in mind as you understand the policies, business, and day-to-day practices you encounter in the Confucian world.
  • As always, beware of stereotyping individuals or full national cultures, especially Confucian Asian cultures that are anomalies.
  • Communication occurs very differently in the Confucian world. Given the importance of li, how you communicate verbally and nonverbally is more prescribed than it is in other places.
  • Confucian cultures are very high context—people prefer to speak indirectly and avoid conflict—and they tend toward being more neutral (especially Japan, but also the other countries as well).

Dos and Taboos
  • Pay more attention to manner and etiquette than you may normally do.
  • If at all possible, eat with chopsticks. Today, it’s not about someone thinking you’re violent if you use a fork and knife, but you’ll definitely be seen as an outsider who can’t adapt.
  • Do whatever you can to promote harmony. Apologize whenever harmony is disrupted.
  • Keep in mind the Western view that it’s polite to clean your plate versus the tradition in Confucian culture that if you empty your plate, you will be given more food.

Ranking & Score
Nation / Ranking / Score

China 126 6.17
Hong Kong 3 8.81
Japan 25 8.28
Korea, Democratic Republic of — —
Korea, Republic of 27 8.20
Mongolia 46 7.61
Singapore 30 8.11
Taiwan 19 8.40
Vietnam 117 6.29

Personal Freedom
Nation / Personal Freedom / Rule of Law / Security & Safety / Movement / Religious Freedom / Assoc., Assem., & Civil Soc. / Expression & Information / Identity & Relationships

China 5.92 4.7 9.3 5.0 3.7 1.5 5.2 9.0
Hong Kong 8.70 7.1 10.0 10.0 8.6 8.0 8.7 9.0
Japan 8.70 7.6 10.0 10.0 8.1 7.5 9.2 8.2
Korea, Democratic Republic of — — — — — — — —
Korea, Republic of 8.81 7.4 9.8 8.3 9.4 9.5 9.0 9.0
Mongolia 7.79 5.3 9.2 8.3 8.6 8.5 8.2 8.2
Singapore 7.50 7.7 9.6 8.3 6.1 3.5 6.6 7.3
Taiwan 8.94 7.0 9.3 10.0 9.4 10.0 9.3 10.0
Vietnam 6.31 4.9 9.4 5.0 5.9 1.5 5.8 9.2

Economic Freedom
Nation / Economic Freedom / Size of Government / Legal System & Prop. Rights / Sound Money / Freedom to Trade Int'l / Regulations

China 6.42 4.7 5.6 8.5 6.8 6.5
Hong Kong 8.91 8.2 7.9 9.6 9.3 9.4
Japan 7.86 5.7 7.6 9.5 8.2 8.3
Korea, Democratic Republic of — — — — — —
Korea, Republic of 7.59 7.0 6.5 9.6 7.6 7.3
Mongolia 7.43 7.9 5.8 9.1 6.7 7.6
Singapore 8.71 7.2 8.2 9.9 9.3 9.0
Taiwan 7.85 7.4 6.8 9.8 7.7 7.6
Vietnam 6.27 6.7 5.0 6.7 6.3 6.7

Averages
Rank: 49.13
Score: 7.73

Personal Freedom: 7.83
Rule of Law: 6.46
Security & Safety: 9.58
Movement: 8.11
Religious Freedom: 7.48
Association, Assembly, & Civil Society: 6.25
Expression & Information: 7.75
Identity & Relationships: 8.74

Economic Freedom: 7.63
Size of Government: 6.85
Legal System & Property Rights: 6.68
Sound Money: 9.09
Freedom to Trade Internationally: 7.74
Regulations: 7.80

@Pants-of-dog Since you flatly refuse to provide any link backing your assertion that the Netherlands is a Nordic country or a definition for a "non-eurocentric" definition of freedom, I don't see any point in continuing to try to get you to provide either.

Oh, and define "cola" purely in negative terms.
#15093890
Pants-of-dog wrote:Not according to the list you provided. The Middle East does not include northern Africa.


I'd consider the Arabic countries in North Africa a part of the middle east.
#15093893
Unthinking Majority wrote:I'd consider the Arabic countries in North Africa a part of the middle east.

Note that's Arabic, not Muslim. A number of nations in Sub-Saharan Africa and central Asia are majority Muslim without being part of the Middle East. Arabic far travelers were often shocked by the customs they found in non-Arabic Muslim territories.
#15093914
@Doug64

Since you flatly refuse to provide any link backing your assertion that the Netherlands is a Nordic country or a definition for a "non-eurocentric" definition of freedom, I don't see any point in continuing to try to get you to provide either.


That would make sense, since I have no intention of providing either of those things.

I previously said:

Pants-of-dog wrote:...you are missing the point about the Netherlands and Germany.


Apparently, I need to repeat what my actual claim is about the Netherlands:

Pants-of-dog wrote:I was not discussing whether or not The Netherlands were a Nordic or German country. I was discussing the incorrect idea that The Netherlands and Germany (or the Netherlands and the Nordic countries) were so radically different that they would constitute two different groups, but other groups that were even more different were considered one group. That is almost certainly not the consensus by social scientists who actually come from Africa and Latin America.


I do not care if whatever European author put them in the Germany cluster or the Nordic cluster or the Paraguayan cluster or the s***hole cluster.

The actual point that I am making, and that you keep ignoring, is that Europe seems be far more divided that Africa and other places for no apparent reason other than ignorance.

And if you do not know what “non-Eurocentric” means, please consult a dictionary.
#15095648
So here's the Southeast Asian culture cluster, with a slight change of format to make it easier to follow:

Image

Image

Image
#15095680
And I was in such a hurry I left out the rather important descriptors:

South Asian Cultural Values
  • Many of the cultures in the South Asian cluster are loose and have low uncertainty avoidance. Most of the countries across the cluster have worked hard to minimize the number of rules and laws that infringe on people’s diverse perspectives.
  • There are places like Pakistan and Afghanistan that, in recent years, have dealt with militant rule from extremists, and there are aspects of India that aren’t very loose. You’ll definitely deal with individuals who have very conservative values about the role of women, appropriate ways to dress, and dietary restrictions, but the cluster is loose in its laid-back approach to life and its acceptance of multiple religions and backgrounds living together.
  • Like most cultures around the world, this cluster is collectivist and high power distance. The collectivism found here is a bit different from Confucian Asia. Family is still very important, as is group identity, but there’s a greater ease with individualism than tends to be true in some other collectivist cultures. However, this may be a result of the looseness of the cultures.
  • The power distance in this cluster is very high. The stratification of people to certain kinds of statuses and roles is very pervasive across nearly all the countries in the culture. Saving face is also an important consideration in this region of Asia.
  • Too often, Asia gets talked about as a pan-Asian culture. The Confucian ideals of li and familial piety play a much smaller role in South Asia than they do in China, Japan, and Korea. Even within this cluster, you could easily look more specifically at the subcontinent of India—Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, etc.—and the countries more typically referred to as Southeast Asia.

Dos and Taboos
  • Be very conscious of eating preferences throughout the region. Many within the region are vegetarian or don’t eat beef or pork, and some abstain from alcohol. You don’t have to know who eats what, but simply asking the question goes a long way.
  • Just because this cluster is very tolerant doesn’t mean that they welcome talking about religious and cultural differences. As compared to some European cultures where low-context individuals thrive on debating about their religious and ideological differences, as a whole, the South Asian cluster believes that one should keep this information to oneself—saving face is very important.
  • This culture is very different. Take it in bite-size chunks or you may get overwhelmed.
  • Remember how important the food is. Try it and remember that your nonverbal communication is being watched.

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