China's Parliament to Discuss Draft Hong Kong National Security Law - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15093789
Beren wrote:And who does? Yes, HK could be independent in theory, yes, it's a matter of power politics mostly, however, none of that relates to the topic I'm discussing (legitimacy) at all. :roll:


Legitimacy comes from how a regimes treats the people.

I have already said a few times that China effectively forfeited it in 1842, regained it in 1997, and by now we see them as forfeiting it again.

EDIT: Being independent or not is irrelevant, and I have also said a few times. The point is whether China has the legitimacy now. My observation is no.
#15093790
Patrickov wrote:Legitimacy comes from how a regimes treats the people.

The legitimacy of China's claims regarding HK comes from history, mostly, however, we just don't seem to participate in the same debate.
Last edited by Beren on 23 May 2020 15:33, edited 1 time in total.
#15093791
Beren wrote:Because China's a tyranny, while the Brits gave HK over prosperous and free, plus they don't know about history.


What they don't understand is that Western interference will only make it worse for the people of Hong Kong.

Yes, there is tremendous historical ignorance both of the shortcomings of their own system and Hong Kong's history.

There is even a significant amount of people in Hong Kong who want to be close to the PRC. Why do we never hear their opinions?
#15093793
Code Rood wrote:I see that people are comparing stuff to the Nazis again. It's so simplistic and boomeristic. Come on guys. Even if there are a few similarities, China is still a complete different animal.

Besides, many people are going to have a hard time taking your plight seriously if you constantly make it about Hitler and the Nazis. How many times have we heard about the ''new Hitler'' crap or someone being called ''literally Hitler'', trying to get guilt ridden Westerners all riled up and distracted?


First, I cannot find the meaning of the word "boomeristic". Perhaps some explanation is required.

Second, I personally agree to make this analogy as few times as possible, because I see Nazism to be some means that requires a well-defined end to be justified. The historical Nazis failed because the majority of their mix is unacceptable, e.g. unfounded racism, (industrial) extermination, not to mention their eagerness of expansion (as "reclamation of their historical rights").

It is the last point that China is currently replicating. If they continue this path, it probably will take a hot war, and deaths of hundreds of millions if not billions, to have the situation resolved, no matter in China's favour or not. This is why the analogy is used -- it sounds more like a warning to the West: If you continue your appeasement like this, when China attacks you, it will be a very hard time.

Of course, considering human nature of not fixing things until it's actually broken, it is no surprise that such warning falls onto deaf ears.
Last edited by Patrickov on 23 May 2020 15:03, edited 2 times in total.
#15093794
Political Interest wrote:What they don't understand is that Western interference will only make it worse for the people of Hong Kong.


In some sense, we are too powerless in front of China that, as long as the West can harm the wrongdoers in China it is already enough.


Political Interest wrote:There is even a significant amount of people in Hong Kong who want to be close to the PRC. Why do we never hear their opinions?


Their voices are merely repetition of the accomplishment of China. (EDIT: Very much like how Republicans or Trump supporters on this forum sound)

It is not like we are unaware of that. The problem is the price tag being too unacceptable.

No one wants to risk being a Li Wangyang, Zhao Lianhai or Li Wenliang, having their personal safety (or even lives) compromised just because their search for justice offended the wrongdoers.

In the West, only those who actively challenge the highest order (like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden) get persecuted like them, and even that they do with the necessary procedures that no one can argue.

In China, it happens all the time, and the administration is full of faults that risks lives because of this (read my post quoting CCTV today as example).

Even coronavirus is such a case, it's only that ignorance of Trump and other Western people succeeded in surpassing China's feat.

Some of us only want to hold the government accountable, which the Hong Kong government is decreasingly so because of the hegemony of the pro-Beijing forces.
Last edited by Patrickov on 23 May 2020 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15093798
Patrickov wrote:Their voices are inferior and only repetition of the accomplishment of China.


I can't agree or disagree, I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to China. Although perhaps this could be said for most of my opinions on this forum :lol:. I'm not going to tell you your own politics.

Patrickov wrote:It is not like we are unaware of that. The problem is the price tag being too unacceptable.


What is the price tag? Would you say you are more concerned about civil liberties or Hong Kong autonomy?

Would Hong Kong protestors support full unification with China if it was a democracy?

Patrickov wrote:In the West, only those who actively challenge the highest order (like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden) get persecuted, and even that they do with the necessary procedures that no one can argue.


I disagree. You have to be very careful with your opinions in the West. It may not be as strict as in some countries but there are still definite limits.
#15093799
Political Interest wrote:I can't agree or disagree, I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to China. Although perhaps this could be said for most of my opinions on this forum :lol: .


I have removed the adjective "inferior" {EDIT: because it is wrong. Apologies.}

Instead, I use another group of comments visible on this forum to make it more relatable.


Political Interest wrote:What is the price tag? Would you say you are more concerned about civil liberties or Hong Kong autonomy?


To me, the former (civil liberties) is the central point. Autonomy is just a transitional measure because China was not like that. The problem now is we see China having no intention to change its way.


Political Interest wrote:Would Hong Kong protestors support full unification with China if it was a democracy?


More like "a functioning democracy with responsible participation from all sides and a fair justice system independent of governmental or even commercial influence".

I know many of the protesters claim no, but I think it is because they don't see it happening. While I share their non-confidence against Chinese people (China does not keep such a system for 2000+ years without reason), if this situation does happen, I will say yes.


Political Interest wrote:I disagree. You have to be very careful with your opinions in the West. It may not be as strict in some countries but there are still definite limits.


I will say in the West the situation usually does not require anyone to "burn this bitch down", so I think they can justify the tolerance being even smaller once the line has been crossed.

The problem in China is that the line is too broad and blurred, that anyone in power can abuse it to suit their (often greedy) needs.
#15093845
Patrickov wrote:First, I cannot find the meaning of the word "boomeristic". Perhaps some explanation is required.


I made that word up. I was simply engaging in some cheap boomer bashing there. Sometimes I just have to crap on that generation.

Don't get me wrong though, I do love and respect a lot of boomers. But man, are they the kings of frozen cold takes or what? And of course they passed it all on to the indoctrinated and extremely damaged younger generations, making sure that we never get rid of boomer logic.
Last edited by Code Rood on 23 May 2020 17:46, edited 1 time in total.
#15093852
Patrickov wrote:It is the last point that China is currently replicating. If they continue this path, it probably will take a hot war, and deaths of hundreds of millions if not billions, to have the situation resolved, no matter in China's favour or not. This is why the analogy is used -- it sounds more like a warning to the West: If you continue your appeasement like this, when China attacks you, it will be a very hard time.

Of course, considering human nature of not fixing things until it's actually broken, it is no surprise that such warning falls onto deaf ears.


Calling a far away leader or country ''Hitler'' or ''nazi'' sure will get you a lot of attention from the West. It's the only time that the Zionist West actually seems interested to act.

Call a leader the next Hitler, and 'Murrica just may be ready to bomb your ass, dismember your children and save the day. Unfortunately for you ''Chinazi'' screamers, Israel seems very interested in China. The West going after China may actually be the final blow for the West, and not China. So how about people start to think things more through? How about we start talking about the great betrayal? How about we expose the China-Israel connection? How about that?
#15093856
Code Rood wrote: Israel seems very interested in China.


Israel and China have a lot in common, they're both ethno-states, they both force ethnic minorities into concentration camps, and they're both parasites that only survive by feeding off the US.
#15093979
Patrickov wrote:Interested but not necessarily friendly. It's yet to see whether this interest is in China's interest or not.


Israel and Zionists have not exactly been very friendly with the US either, so that doesn't matter. Things still worked out pretty well for them, didn't it?

China hasn't been (and is not going to be) the master in this relationship. Israel and the international clique are interested for a reason. Let me refresh your memory. Who do you think funded and supported Chairman Mao? Who has been building up China the last couple of decades? Who has been selling American secrets to them? Who is going to be the center of the Belt & Road?

China sure is a mean pitbull, but in the end it probably is nothing more than a distraction and a trap for the West. The fact that literally no public American figure wants to talk about the really close relationship between America's big adversary and America's ''greatest ally'' is very suspicious. America's main problem (and quite frankly the world's problem) should be obvious at this point.

People like you basically beg for America's help. But how can America really help out people and make things right if they're constantly being fucked with from within? The Israel-USA relationship can be described in two words: pure humiliation.

Israel is not a little guy, Patrickov. It's a technological juggernaut. It's the second eye of the world. Pretty much every PM of Israel has a Soviet background. It's a literal creation by the Rothschild family. You know, the family that is known for funding both sides in wars and conflicts. I can go on and on. Everything about Israel and Zionism should raise your eyebrow.
#15093986
Code Rood wrote:Israel and Zionists have not exactly been very friendly with the US either, so that doesn't matter. Things still worked out pretty well for them, didn't it?

China hasn't been (and is not going to be) the master in this relationship. Israel and the international clique are interested for a reason. Let me refresh your memory. Who do you think funded and supported Chairman Mao? Who has been building up China the last couple of decades? Who has been selling American secrets to them? Who is going to be the center of the Belt & Road?

China sure is a mean pitbull, but in the end it probably is nothing more than a distraction and a trap for the West. The fact that literally no public American figure wants to talk about the very close relationship between America's big adversary and America's ''greatest ally'' is very suspicious. America's main problem (and quite frankly the world's problem) should be obvious at this point.

People like you basically beg for America's help. But how can America really help out people and make things right if they're constantly being fucked with from within? The Israel-USA relationship can be described in two words: pure humiliation.

Israel is not a little guy, Patrickov. It's a technological juggernaut. It's the second eye of the world. Pretty much every PM of Israel has a Soviet background. It's a literal creation by the Rothschild family. You know, the family that is known for funding both sides in wars and conflicts. I can go on and on. Everything about Israel and Zionism should raise your eyebrow.



Don't assume I am so stupid to underestimate the race who actually controlled a considerable portion, if not majority, of world's wealth or even way of life.

I am just saying that if Israel is the master then it is possible that China is disposable to them, and to me this is already enough. I do not share the opinion that Zionist conspiracy, if exists, needs to be stopped, because I do not share the opinion that such conspiracy necessarily destroys my interests.
#15094006
The allusions to Israelis and Zionists are perhaps not so accurate, it is a dangerous path of conversation and it's reductionist.

However, links between China and the USA are quite pronounced. It was Nixon and Kissinger that made overtures to Beijing and they signed the Shanghai Communique in 1972:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqu%C3%A9

The US used China to balance against the USSR in the context of the Sino-Soviet split which Beijing and Moscow had resolved by the 1980s as both Gorbachev and Deng Xiaoping came into office.

The US wants to use China against Russia. In any dispute they will side with Beijing. Because China and Russia have very good relations these days it is not possible for America to pursue this policy anymore.
#15094045
Code Rood wrote:The fact that it makes you feel uncomfortable is so telling. Nothing makes a Westerner more uncomfortable, and deep down we all know why this is.


Yes, we do know why that is and it is because that sort of discussion led to a genocide. You will have to excuse me for not wanting to indulge in anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

We can have far more intelligent discussions that actually explain our world without having to descend into that sort of conversation.
#15094047
Political Interest wrote:Yes, we do know why that is and it is because that sort of discussion led to a genocide. You will have to excuse me for not wanting to indulge in anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

We can have far more intelligent discussions that actually explain our world without having to descend into that sort of conversation.


Leaving out a major piece in this puzzle, just because you've been conditioned to see this piece of the puzzle as an anti-Semitic conspiracy or because you're afraid, isn't going to help solve our problems. If you're being honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that ''many roads lead to Jerusalem''.

No one thinks you want to enslave American blacks if you're critical of how they run their communities. No one thinks you want a potato famine if you think the Irish have a drinking problem. No one thinks you hate Italians if you have a problem with the mafia.

People, especially in Western nations, are so terrified to talk about the rotten apples of this certain group of people. It just explains a whole lot about the world that we currently live in.
#15094052
Code Rood wrote:People, especially in Western nations, are so terrified to talk about the rotten apples of this certain group of people. It just explains a whole lot about the world that we currently live in.


Let's call a spade a spade as they say.
In this case, "this certain group of people" stands for the Jews, right ?
OK, if we get that out of the way, do elucidate us about those "rotten apples".
Who or what are they ?
And what have they done to you to make you so obsessed ?

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