[Unthinking Majority]

I wonder if China wants to control the world, but they definitely mean to be its centre, as well as leader perhaps, which would be a justified ambition on their part.

Anyone who thinks they would want less control than what the US has now is insanely naive. Just look at how much control they exert over their own people. Look at their social credit system. They also have 54% of the world's security cameras in order to watch and control the population in the CCP's interests. They show up to your house to intimidate people, or they throw people in jail without trial or rights. To assume they would somehow be nicer to the global population if ridiculous.

The CCP already silences Chinese who live abroad by threatening their family members who still live in China. Anyone who isn't worried about what China is going to be a few decades is a fool. Anyone who wasn't worried about Nazi Germany in 1937 was an idiot.

[Beren]

To assume they would somehow be nicer to the global population if ridiculous.

How is it ridiculous? They'll always oppress the Chinese themselves the most, of course, like the US spies on its own people the most as well simply because it's them they have to fear the most. It could be different with colonies, but neither the US nor China colonises in a traditional way. It may sound ironic but one could be freer in the periphery than in the core.

[Unthinking Majority]

How is it ridiculous? They'll always oppress the Chinese themselves the most, of course, like the US spies on its own people the most as well simply because it's them they have to fear the most. It could be different with colonies, but neither the US nor China colonises in a traditional way. It may sound ironic but one could be freer in the periphery than in the core.

I agree that imperialism and colonization has changed.

I'm no fan of imperialism, but if it's an unavoidable fact of international relations as it has been the last 2000 years I'd rather be in the US's core than China's periphery.

[Dimetrodon]

I agree that imperialism and colonization has changed.

I'm no fan of imperialism, but if it's an unavoidable fact of international relations as it has been the last 2000 years I'd rather be in the US's core than China's periphery.

I hate it when anti-imperialism is one sided if you know what I mean.

[Beren]

I agree that imperialism and colonization has changed.

I'm no fan of imperialism, but if it's an unavoidable fact of international relations as it has been the last 2000 years I'd rather be in the US's core than China's periphery.

The US's core will be China's periphery, basically.

[Tainari88]

Anyone who thinks they would want less control than what the US has now is insanely naive. Just look at how much control they exert over their own people. Look at their social credit system. They also have 54% of the world's security cameras in order to watch and control the population in the CCP's interests. They show up to your house to intimidate people, or they throw people in jail without trial or rights. To assume they would somehow be nicer to the global population if ridiculous.

The CCP already silences Chinese who live abroad by threatening their family members who still live in China. Anyone who isn't worried about what China is going to be a few decades is a fool. Anyone who wasn't worried about Nazi Germany in 1937 was an idiot.

Assange, Snowden, etc all talk about the internal spying going on within the USA and so on. I really don't care what you defend Unthinking. I grew up with political suppression in my family by the USA government. The FBI admitted it freely to Jose Serrano and sent him tons of documents. Nothing different and gentler about the USA's style of violent suppression. John Perkins discusses "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and all the stuff they did in Latin America. It is very very long Unthinking. Do you need a list and the specifics? These are the neighbors. The people they are trading with and are supposedly friendly with.

You go nation by nation? Killing, interfering in free elections, deposing legit governments to replace them with 'yes' people to their dirty shitty greedy ideas and agendas....the list is LONG. Since the USA is in Latin America's side of the world guess where they do the worst of the worst and then LIE about it to the world? Yes, this side of the world.

They don't allow dissidents that are a threat to them. Not inside of the nation and definitely not outside either.

I don't believe in the kinder better American style of Imperialism. It is time to set aside the imperialism and try to keep the planet from going into drought, water contamination, and species extinction mode on overdrive and stop trying to be the Greediest people on Earth with the most expensive cops and military to enforce the rip off of other people's resources. It is time to stop lying about just how bad all of these Empires have been in the last 600 years of human history and start working on repairing the damage.

Some more bullshit about how much more civilized the American Empire is? Is for pendejos who never got the short end of the stick in the Empire wars of greed and death.

Most of Latin America have constitutions and have republican forms of government. But if the wrong nationally minded group of people come to power the USA decides not to respect the choices made.

The PRC never went for two parties humpty dumpty basically clones as a smokescreen for state sponsored capitalism. The USA is a sham because it is run by corporations. By lobbyists and black funding and PACs with no accountability, Citizens United SCOTUS rulings and bullshit. No one believes that the USA magically always gives in to democracy and justice. It has been bloody fights for centuries to get anything even remotely decent for working people passed. It is fought against and undermined.

All nations have to struggle to get anything remotely just passed in their nations. Justice is not handed to people by corrupt governments and swollen head elites used to dominating all over the world. It is a common thread of human struggle. I think thinking that somehow the USA is above the fray is a deep and grave mistake. The USA set itself up to fail.

You know in the insurance industry they tell you "Promise much less than what you can actually deliver. That is how you retain the customer." If you over promise and underdeliver the entire customer base gets angry.. That is what happens with the USA. Too many broken promises and no deliveries with the actual goods delivered or services rendered.

No one expects governments who never promised a rose garden to deliver the roses. So? They don't expect that. They prepare for no delivery. But the ones promising the rose garden and delivering weeds and bullshit that is not good for planting because there is no shit in it for roses to grow out of? Those are the ones that piss everyone off the most.

Beware of not delivering on "We the People." And staying with 'We the greedy and the plutocrats in order to form a more perfect union of inequality and exploitation....do hereby and establish....the United Intent to Keep People without any Opportunities and false promises of prosperity or prosperity to a tiny fraction of the society. After promising a whole lot of shit that everyone has to fight to the death to get....

If you have to fight to the death to get? Why the hell make the boat trip over. Stay in the old nation and fight it out in your own culture with more of a hope of true change. Don't go somewhere where you are bombarded with racist shit, your nation is a shithole, you are from inferior stock, we only want the easy ones to assimilate and we want some other country to educate people, teach them a lot, and be talented to come in then in their productive years and pilfer them from the societies that did all the investing in those fine, educated, flexible thinkers and hard workers. Theft of the labor of other nations. For the benefit of some lazy people in the USA who never wanted to work with the people they had all along...why? Because of bad values. Some really really bad values.

Greatest country on Earth? You should hear this monologue that rebutts that bullshit in this monologue. He is right you know.....

cue it up there:

9:30...the man is right (I don't agree with him but his stats are right). Lol.

No one understands just how bad it has gotten.

[Unthinking Majority]

@Tainari88

I certainly don't defend all of the US's action, they are not saints by any means. I'm not a tyrant or an arse. I'm saying the US is the lesser of evils. Maybe not lesser to Latin America, but lesser for the rest of the world. A bipolar international order is also not a peaceful one as we saw during the Cold War.

You have every reason to dislike the USA and you don't even have to defend that stance, anyone with any knowledge of history knows the terrible things the USA has done to Latin America. If China had the hegemonic power the US has had China would certainly throw its weight around Asia in similar and likely worse fashion. They're already moving on Hong Kong, they've always had eyes on Taiwan and Japan, they've supported North Vietnam and North Korea etc. If it were up to China the entire Korean peninsula would be under Kim Jung-un's control, or ideally the CCP's. And then what would happen? They might ethnically cleanse whatever territory they occupy, I mean they're trying to genocide the Uighurs FFS. They have 1.1 billion Han Chinese they need to make room for. Good old "living space": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

I think the world (not Latin America) is better off with the US as the hegemon.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

I wonder if China wants to control the world, but they definitely mean to be its centre, as well as leader perhaps, which would be a justified ambition on their part.


All the rest of the world could do is either assist China or put up some peripheral resistance (under US leadership) to counterbalance it somehow.

And on the other side of the world 5% of the world’s population try to control the other 90%.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

It’s not about who controls the world and who would be better, or worse. You can’t bring chaos and death to millions and then say, if someone else did it, it would be worse. It just sounds odd, a bit like being grateful for Hitler because Stalin would have been worse.
The biggest problem is believing all countries want a liberal democracy. When you look at the west now it’s not a surprise they don’t. China has a population five times the size of the US so you can’t compare like for like figures. Yet using figures you’d find the US would be incarcerating over ten million in its prisons!
China wants to be the world’s economic powerhouse and America is trying to fight back. That’s it, that’s what it’s all about.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

Assange, Snowden, etc all talk about the internal spying going on within the USA and so on. I really don't care what you defend Unthinking. I grew up with political suppression in my family by the USA government. The FBI admitted it freely to Jose Serrano and sent him tons of documents. Nothing different and gentler about the USA's style of violent suppression. John Perkins discusses "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and all the stuff they did in Latin America. It is very very long Unthinking. Do you need a list and the specifics? These are the neighbors. The people they are trading with and are supposedly friendly with.

You go nation by nation? Killing, interfering in free elections, deposing legit governments to replace them with 'yes' people to their dirty shitty greedy ideas and agendas....the list is LONG. Since the USA is in Latin America's side of the world guess where they do the worst of the worst and then LIE about it to the world? Yes, this side of the world.

They don't allow dissidents that are a threat to them. Not inside of the nation and definitely not outside either.

I don't believe in the kinder better American style of Imperialism. It is time to set aside the imperialism and try to keep the planet from going into drought, water contamination, and species extinction mode on overdrive and stop trying to be the Greediest people on Earth with the most expensive cops and military to enforce the rip off of other people's resources. It is time to stop lying about just how bad all of these Empires have been in the last 600 years of human history and start working on repairing the damage.

Some more bullshit about how much more civilized the American Empire is? Is for pendejos who never got the short end of the stick in the Empire wars of greed and death.

Most of Latin America have constitutions and have republican forms of government. But if the wrong nationally minded group of people come to power the USA decides not to respect the choices made.

The PRC never went for two parties humpty dumpty basically clones as a smokescreen for state sponsored capitalism. The USA is a sham because it is run by corporations. By lobbyists and black funding and PACs with no accountability, Citizens United SCOTUS rulings and bullshit. No one believes that the USA magically always gives in to democracy and justice. It has been bloody fights for centuries to get anything even remotely decent for working people passed. It is fought against and undermined.

All nations have to struggle to get anything remotely just passed in their nations. Justice is not handed to people by corrupt governments and swollen head elites used to dominating all over the world. It is a common thread of human struggle. I think thinking that somehow the USA is above the fray is a deep and grave mistake. The USA set itself up to fail.

You know in the insurance industry they tell you "Promise much less than what you can actually deliver. That is how you retain the customer." If you over promise and underdeliver the entire customer base gets angry.. That is what happens with the USA. Too many broken promises and no deliveries with the actual goods delivered or services rendered.

No one expects governments who never promised a rose garden to deliver the roses. So? They don't expect that. They prepare for no delivery. But the ones promising the rose garden and delivering weeds and bullshit that is not good for planting because there is no shit in it for roses to grow out of? Those are the ones that piss everyone off the most.

Beware of not delivering on "We the People." And staying with 'We the greedy and the plutocrats in order to form a more perfect union of inequality and exploitation....do hereby and establish....the United Intent to Keep People without any Opportunities and false promises of prosperity or prosperity to a tiny fraction of the society. After promising a whole lot of shit that everyone has to fight to the death to get....

If you have to fight to the death to get? Why the hell make the boat trip over. Stay in the old nation and fight it out in your own culture with more of a hope of true change. Don't go somewhere where you are bombarded with racist shit, your nation is a shithole, you are from inferior stock, we only want the easy ones to assimilate and we want some other country to educate people, teach them a lot, and be talented to come in then in their productive years and pilfer them from the societies that did all the investing in those fine, educated, flexible thinkers and hard workers. Theft of the labor of other nations. For the benefit of some lazy people in the USA who never wanted to work with the people they had all along...why? Because of bad values. Some really really bad values.

Greatest country on Earth? You should hear this monologue that rebutts that bullshit in this monologue. He is right you know.....

cue it up there:

9:30...the man is right (I don't agree with him but his stats are right). Lol.

No one understands just how bad it has gotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fTkA3dvpPM

[Rancid]

One thing is for sure--The PRC, South Korea and Japan are busting moves (economically and culturally all over Mexico). For sure. From a main avenue named Republica de Corea, to a bunch of Mandarin Chinese classes and economic invitations to study in China from Mexican unis...the PRC is busting moves in Mexico.

HTTP://www.facebook.com/InstitutoAsiaticoPeninsularAc

That's not something to get excited about. Those moves are designed to benefit China (in the long term) far more than Mexico (who only gets limited short term benefit). It's the game, and this tactic is very effective, and allows them to basically trickle in command of the global economy and supply chain without firing a bullet. However, at some point, when it's obvious how bad of a deal that is for the rest of the world, some conflict will breakout. Unfortunately, this is how it's going to have to play out. I used to not think war as an inevitability, but it clearly is when so many of us are unable to see the insidiousness of their actions and words. Go review Xi Jingpings speeches to the CCP, you would be up in arms if the US ever said anything like that.

I'm always a bit perplexed at how much of pass you give to China.

Edit:
Assuming no WWIII scenario. A very probable scenario is that Latin America becomes the location of various proxy wars between China and the West. At which point, swaths of Latin America will become war torn. Lots of potential death, destruction, and un-development. Just as much the US is not the friend of the Latin American people, China isn't either. Though, we're probably more likely to see that happen in South East Asia and first.

[Tainari88]

That's not something to get excited about. Those moves are designed to benefit China (in the long term) far more than Mexico (who only gets limited short term benefit). It's the game, and this tactic is very effective, and allows them to basically trickle in command of the global economy and supply chain without firing a bullet. However, at some point, when it's obvious how bad of a deal that is for the rest of the world, some conflict will breakout. Unfortunately, this is how it's going to have to play out. I used to not think war as an inevitability, but it clearly is when so many of us are unable to see the insidiousness of their actions and words. Go review Xi Jingpings speeches to the CCP, you would be up in arms if the US ever said anything like that.

I'm always a bit perplexed at how much of pass you give to China.

Edit:
Assuming no WWIII scenario. A very probable scenario is that Latin America becomes the location of various proxy wars between China and the West. At which point, swaths of Latin America will become war torn. Lots of potential death, destruction, and un-development. Just as much the US is not the friend of the Latin American people, China isn't either. Though, we're probably more likely to see that happen in South East Asia and first.

Why do you think Ernesto "Che" Guevara wanted an unaligned nations block? Which would include Africa, Latin America and the underdeveloped parts of Asia Rancid? To avoid playing the pawn between the super powerful nations with a lot of imperial ambitions. Bolivar wanted unity to avoid being exploited by both the USA and Imperially minded European powers like Spain was and France and England at that time in the 19th century Rancid. The USSR with the cold war always played the role of 'friend' to socialist nations in Latin America at the time(mainly they resented the USA gov't 'interfering with the Eastern Block and so on....again they did not like how the USA with far more weapons pointed at them than they had at the USA--playing the innocent and the pristine in Imperialism. No one is fooled with that shit Rancid. Not the PRC, the Cubans and the other satellite nations. You also should study Latin American socioeconomic movements because none of them want to be pawns to the USA or the PRC. They want mutually beneficial relationships with many nations Rancid. That is the rational way of coping with all these places.

You feel comfortable with the USA and how it runs things. You don't feel comfortable with the PRC. The PRC has alone almost 20% or more of all of planet Earth's human beings. It is time to get serious about negotiating beneficial relationships without all this invasion and death that the USA does and the PRC so far, wants market invasions, not military ones. Why? The want the economic might and know that is where the growth and stability is located. Wasting a lot of money on military investments that are not used in constant wars is being frivolous and not intelligent. Los chinos want to lead economically. Why? Because they got the biggest human market in the world. But not the biggest disposable income and growing upper middle class. They studied the Yankee playbook.

I am not giving them a pass Rancid. I don't like a lot of the PRC's authoritarian horrible repressive callous tactics. Looking at it objectively? They are busting moves in Mexico, Chile, Peru, etc because they are interested in making deals that will benefit the PRC's markets. The USA is used to being dictator of markets in Latin America, having the USA compete for dominance in markets in Latin America is a capitalist advantage. It means the USA can't do sweetheart deals that only benefit themselves like before and now will have to balance it out with internal ruling classes and land owned communally by Indian peoples and their community organizations in Latin America. All of this is very complex Rancid.

In the end, war and monopolies over Latin America and Africa with their racist histories from ex colonies of European world powers who built their economies up for centuries off the backs of American lands and American labor and American resources? That whole chapter in history is about to draw to a complete close SOON.

It all depends on who decides to think about being true to their own voting people and being true justice seekers and who are just tin pot dictators who fold it up when the American Imperialists arrive or the European Imperialists arrive or the Chinese State Capitalists arrive....got to have VALUES Rancid. That is the essence of true progress. Not being damn sellouts!

[Rancid]

You feel comfortable with the USA and how it runs things.

Woah woah woah... not exactly that. Just that the USA is the smaller devil. Still a devil though.

I am not giving them a pass Rancid. I don't like a lot of the PRC's authoritarian horrible repressive callous tactics. Looking at it objectively? They are busting moves in Mexico, Chile, Peru, etc because they are interested in making deals that will benefit the PRC's markets. The USA is used to being dictator of markets in Latin America, having the USA compete for dominance in markets in Latin America is a capitalist advantage. It means the USA can't do sweetheart deals that only benefit themselves like before and now will have to balance it out with internal ruling classes and land owned communally by Indian peoples and their community organizations in Latin America. All of this is very complex Rancid.

This is only true, if the institutions of Latin American governments are strong. That is, they can avoid their leaders selling them out to the US or PRC. If they can avoid that, and truly stay unaligned, then I would agree with you, but that's not a sure thing. After all, the US had no trouble finding people in Latin America that were willing to sell out the people of Latin America. Keep in mind, China has already done/attempted buying out governments/politicians in the Maldives and Sri Lanka by the way. They have already shown they are willing to do that. Why should we believe it wouldn't be hard for China to seek out the corrupted/selfish souls in Latin America to buy out? In that scenario, those corrupt individuals will simply start a bidding war for their personal corrupted loyalty, rather than a bidding war for access to markets that might benefit all the people of Latin America.

You are right, it is very complicated, and I just tend to believe, that in such complex scenarios, the schemers, liars, and cheaters prevail. This is consistent through history, no? The US was founded on scheming and corruption. So was the USSR, so was the CCP/PRC. Corruption rules the day. Someone will hijack the efforts of Latin America to become it's own independent entity not aligned to the west or east. Reminds me of the Bolshiveks hijacking the government from the liberals.

So yea, the best thing for Latin America is to not be aligned with either, and be their own strong trading block. Agree 100%. I just do not see that is a real scenario. Instead, many of these nations will sellout to one side or the other, and in the scenario, I think the US will prove to be the smaller devil.

got to have VALUES Rancid. That is the essence of true progress. Not being damn sellouts!

Agree, I guess I'm not as hopeful as you are. Sellouts are everywhere, very few people with values exist. Even fewer when you look at the people that are in positions of power within any government.

[JohnRawls]

I look at the EU and I look at Russia today. Did you watch the video? It’s not propaganda, he also explains it. Britain has been trying to get out of the EU for four years and the elite politicians keep prolonging it (no surprise there)! Leaving the EU is like trying to shake off a bad dose of flu.

John, I speak to people from the Baltic States every day, they dislike it here, but it’s even worse back home. Greece, Portugal and Spain have been economic basket cases for years. I doubt very much if you earn anything near western European pay rates. The average minimum wage here is about €10.63 an hour for non-skilled manual labour. It’s why they came.

The Baltic people that left probably never tried to succeed here in the first place. As i said, average statistics for UK and Estonia are still different so it is easier to succeed in UK in a sense. But having said that, most places outside of Europe and US are a lot worse with some minor exceptions. This includes Russia and China who are both worse off compared to literally the most underdeveloped members of the European Union or US.(States in case of US)

[Beren]

I think the world (not Latin America) is better off with the US as the hegemon.

It's not a matter of choice, though, the US just can't be the hegemon anymore. With COVID-19, the US election, and the RCEP we're having a turning (or inflection) point, I guess.

China wants to be the world’s economic powerhouse and America is trying to fight back. That’s it, that’s what it’s all about.

It's a fight for dominance, that's what it's actually all about.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

The Baltic people that left probably never tried to succeed here in the first place. As i said, average statistics for UK and Estonia are still different so it is easier to succeed in UK in a sense. But having said that, most places outside of Europe and US are a lot worse with some minor exceptions. This includes Russia and China who are both worse off compared to literally the most underdeveloped members of the European Union or US.(States in case of US)

I don’t know how old you are John, but I’m guessing you don’t remember much of the Soviet Union days.

The Baltic States to put it bluntly was a s**thole. Your parents or the older people you talk to will tell you that. After nearly half a century of communism that’s no surprise. You then got independence and jumped into bed with another useless lot led by the same kind of political elite, the European Union. The last time you had any autonomy was pre-war. In other words, you’ve nothing to compare your standard of living with except in dictatorships. You think the EU isn’t an elite led dictatorship? You’ll only find that out if you try to leave.

Its many years since I was in Russia, but I was recently in China. You’re way, way behind China in living standards.
‘Based on Pew's income band classification, China's middle class has been among the fastest growing in the world, swelling from 39.1 million people (3.1 percent of the population) in 2000 to roughly 707 million (50.8 percent of the population) in 2018.’

This is the European Union, no different from the Soviet one.
https://youtu.be/NfAhbYfF-wQ

[B0ycey]

@Jeremiah Squatpump

Unless Europe join together, there will only be America and China left running the geopolitic narrative. Estonia is better off in the club than outside it. Because if they were outside it, they would be a Russian proxy like Belarus now. The UK will know soon enough that their voice is irrelevant now. Do you think China is going to listen to an island in the sea or the leaders of a continental collective when it comes to anything of importance?

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

@Jeremiah Squatpump

Unless Europe join together, there will only be America and China left running the geopolitic narrative. Estonia is better off in the club than outside it. Because if they were outside it, they would be a Russian proxy like Belarus now. The UK will know soon enough that their voice is irrelevant now. Do you think China is going to listen to an island in the sea or the leaders of a continental collective when it comes to anything of importance?

Estonia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Russia or the EU. I’ll go for Russia as being stuck in a Soviet style EU is somewhere they don’t want to be unless of course they want to be equal with basket case Ukraine.
China won’t listen to anyone, it will carry on doing its own thing. Even in the EU the voice of Britain was irrelevant. At least we’re now free to make decisions, but under Boris …
S**t, we’re buggered either way!
That’s why joining the Squatpump revolution is the only way.

[B0ycey]

Estonia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Russia or the EU. I’ll go for Russia as being stuck in a Soviet style EU is somewhere they don’t want to be unless of course they want to be equal with basket case Ukraine.
China won’t listen to anyone, it will carry on doing its own thing. Even in the EU the voice of Britain was irrelevant. At least we’re now free to make decisions, but under Boris …
S**t, we’re buggered either way!
That’s why joining the Squatpump revolution is the only way.

Yes we are buggered with Johnson. Seems autonomy has a price.

Nonetheless I dont agree Estonia are stuck between a rock and a hard place at all. They are being rebuilt under the EU. They have a voice in the EU. And they are in the largest economic bubble in the entire world inside the EU.

Nonetheless what do you know of Macron? Not the Muhammad cartoons but his vision for Europe? He is a man ahead of his time. And the EU just needs reform which he also understands. Because in a world of superpowers they will be forced to reform soon enough. Macron understands that Europe cannot sit by and watch as everyone else builds around them. He know the issues of being a US proxy and he understands that Europe cannot do it as small individual nations. Because whatever you think of the EU, with all that you posted and have highlighted the past week, if Europe has any chance of competing with China in the future they can only do it as the EU. It is that reason I am almost certain the UK will in time return back to the club once they have been left behind long enough.

[Unthinking Majority]

It's not a matter of choice, though, the US just can't be the hegemon anymore. With COVID-19, the US election, and the RCEP we're having a turning (or inflection) point, I guess.

Trade with the US and the West is largely responsible for China's rise in economic power. If the US and the West ceased trading with China or at least severely limited it and spread much of their economic love elsewhere the West could do anything from keeping China in check all the way to almost fully destroying their economy.