Rugoz wrote:That wasn't even the question. It's about whether the US helped to turn democracies into autocracies to support their foreign policy goals. It's at best a very rare occurrence, I have yet to find a convincing case.
I know that the case of Greece is a very convincing case as a lot of evidence exists, I am not familiar with the South American cases but I am certain more cases equally as convincing as the Greek case very likely exist as well. It is also logical because...
If US policy-makers calculate that the democratic options available on the table are unsuitable to them then they will do anything to increase their options including looking at autocracies and dictatorships to support their foreign policy goals.
I will repost what I posted in the other thread here and then some -as I can not split a post- just to buttress the point about US involvement in the Greek junta.
If a democratic government went against "US interests" or the perception of them even rhetorically
, then that democratic government did not last very long.
President Johnson was very candid to the Greek ambassador just a couple of years before the coup:
President Lyndon Johnson to the Greek Ambassador of the US-June 1964 wrote:
Fuck your parliament and your constitution. America is an elephant. Cyprus is a flea. Greece is a flea. If these two fleas continue itching the elephant, they may just get whacked good... We pay a lot of good American dollars to the Greeks, Mr. Ambassador. If your Prime Minister gives me talk about democracy, parliament and constitution, he, his parliament and his constitution may not last long.
US and Britain organized a coup to remove the democratically elected government of Greece in 1967 and replace it with a CIA junta that lasted until 1974. The partition of Cyprus could be used at the time as a lever to control both Greece and Turkey and it would ensure that the British bases would remain on the island. Today those calculations no longer make any sense but 'c'est la vie'. The partition of Cyprus was enacted by Henry Kissinger in 1973(the first time in history, even to this date a Secretary of State, controlled the CIA due to Nixon's and Agnew's scandals) when the democratically-elected government of Cyprus was removed by Henry Kissinger
by utilising both the Greek and Turkish juntas in place.
In 1954, after Britain failed to hand over Cyprus to Greece despite offering it twice in return for Greek entry in WW1 and again in WW2(where in both cases, Greek entry was decisive for the outcome of the war), Greece put the Cyprus matter to the UN in the name of self-determination
The UN meeting was cancelled in 1955 when the Turks pogromed the Greeks of Istanbul, the Turkish government had created a false-flag operation in their Consulate in Greece by setting off a bomb in their own consulate(Ataturk's birth-house for which the Turkish PM was tried and eventually hanged I believe). Once they set-off the bomb in their consulate, they had mobs ready to attack the Greek population of Istanbul, destroy their houses and shops in broad day-light, events for which the British were directly complicit:
Constantinople Pogrom wrote:The Greek government had appealed in 1954 to the United Nations to demand self-determination for Cyprus. Britain had a ruling mandate over the mostly ethnic Greek island, and wanted the Cyprus dispute to be resolved without being taken to the United Nations Security Council, due to fears of how the Greek and Greek Cypriot parties would portray the conflict. To this end, the British government resolved to temper Greek demands by encouraging the Turkish government to publicly express their support for Turkish-Cypriot cause, which they estimated would ensure the issue would not reach the UN Security Council. British reports from the period made disparate assessments on the state of Greco-Turkish relations; one by the British Embassy on August 1954 stated that the relationship was of a superficial nature and that a minor source of tension, such as a hypothetical Greek destruction of Atatürk's house in Thessaloniki, would cause permanent damage; while an official of the Foreign Office said that a stern stance towards Greece would be to Turkey's benefit. MP John Strachey warned that Turkey had a large ethnic Greek minority in Istanbul as a card to play against Greece if it considered annexing an independent Cyprus against the wishes of Turkish-Cypriots.
Finally, the conference fell apart on 6 September, the first day the subject of Cyprus would be broached at the conference, when news broke of the bombing of the Turkish consulate (and birthplace of Atatürk) in Greece's second-largest city, Thessaloniki.
At the time the Turkish population of Cyprus was about 15%, when the UN conference eventually took place, the Americans:
LSE paper on US participation in the Greek junta 1967-1974 wrote:
As Peurifoy’s memorandum acknowledges, the United States, at times, pursued its interests in Greece with a heavy-hand. As a result, the Greek people began to resent America’s “leadership.” By December 1954, American symbols were coming under attack. The “disengagement” of the Greek people from America’s preferred course was meticulously discussed in 1957.
In a 15-page memorandum, James K. Penfield, a political officer at the American Embassy in Greece, observed:
When the Greek public sees its desires with respect to Cyprus supported without stint in the United Nations by the Afro-Asian Bloc, by Tito, and, however tardily and hypocritically, by the Soviet Bloc, and sees the United States and each of its partners in NATO either thwart those desires or remain indifferent or neutral toward them, it lends an ever more receptive ear to those who in public speeches and in the daily press ask what Greece’s ties to the West have gained her and why she should continue to maintain them. . . . We and our policies have become less popular with the Greeks in recent years and months and we see no evidence of the existence of any force which will reverse this trend in the immediate future, barring an immediate settlement of the Cyprus issue in a manner satisfactory to Greece or a very large increase in the amount of American economic assistance.
The memo insisted, “We are not winning the battle for the Greek mind.” This led Penfield to conclude: We are passing through a period when our influence and prestige among the Greek people and with the Greek Government are undergoing a reassessment and readjustment in a changed world situation. We can no longer be as certain as we have been in the past that we shall have Greece’s support in foreign policy matters that are critical to us. . . . Unless [the reasons for disengagement] are corrected, however, there is a distinct possibility that Greece will find herself ultimately in the neutral bloc or in a “non-bloc” alignment where, we have reason to fear, a growing number of Greeks today are already finding themselves psychologically.
We have reached a new stage in Greek-American relations in which many of our decade-old assumptions and rules-of-thumb are no longer valid.
The Americans created an anti-American public by supporting the enemies of Greece, and then to ensure that Greece stayed in line, they imposed a CIA dictator to ensure compliance(instead of simply correcting their own course as requested by Penfield). Doubling down on both the stupidity & the hubris. The Cyprus matter has been haunting, not just the Cypriots but also the Greeks and today Americans, Anglo's, Europeans and the west as a whole who in hindsight may be able to see the error of their ways.
US policy readjustment in Greece begun with Bill Clinton who publicly apologized for US support for the junta
during a visit in 1999 but the policy was only really changed with Obama and more properly adjusted with Biden.
The US was definitely guilty of the 1967-1974 Coup in Greece, first of all the dictator himself was an official CIA agent
, second, the US had full and extensive prior knowledge of the coup, third the US openly supported the new junta regime with both arms and money, fourth the US embassy had active plans to instigate a military coup in the event the Center Union party was about to come to power, which it would with the greatest majority ever recorded in Greek history(even to this day). Lots of 'firsts, even to this day'.
Fourth, and more importantly consider this. Why would the Greek military dictator remove the 20k strong Greek army from Cyprus and then instigate a coup against the Greek government of Cyprus without an actual army to see it through?
Another major hubris that cost more prestige than it gained for the Americans was the destruction of Yugoslavia.
In both cases, the US, Britain and the allies went against their own allies during both World Wars.
In conclusion, you are correct in so far as US policy concerns Taiwan while Fasces is correct about historical US policy in the abstract. Fasces use of the abstract to build a case for the particular in Taiwan is definitively false and in bad faith as well.
Moreover, it is both unwise and improper(at least for irrelevant laymen) to sidestep the realities of the people involved namely the people of Taiwan and make them secondary to great power narratives.
EN EL ED EM ON
...take your common sense with you, and leave your prejudices behind...