Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 720 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15288521
The bloke who has access to people in power in the U.S. wrote:Jeffrey Sachs: NATO Expansion & Ukraine’s Destruction
Ukraine is being destroyed by U.S. arrogance, proving again Henry Kissinger’s adage that to be America’s enemy is dangerous, while to be its friend is fatal.

During the disastrous Vietnam War, it was said that the U.S. government treated the public like a mushroom farm: keeping it in the dark and feeding it with manure. The heroic Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers documenting the unrelenting U.S. government lying about the war in order to protect politicians who would be embarrassed by the truth. A half century later, during the Ukraine War, the manure is piled even higher.

According to the U.S. government and the ever-obsequious New York Times, the Ukraine war was “unprovoked,” the Times’ favorite adjective to describe the war. Putin, allegedly mistaking himself for Peter the Great, invaded Ukraine to recreate the Russian Empire. Yet last week, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg committed a Washington gaffe, meaning that he accidentally blurted out the truth.

In testimony to the European Union Parliament, Stoltenberg made clear that it was America’s relentless push to enlarge NATO to Ukraine that was the real cause of the war and why it continues today. Here are Stoltenberg’s revealing words:

“The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition to not invade Ukraine. Of course, we didn’t sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second-class membership. We rejected that.

So, he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.”

To repeat, he [Putin] went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

When Prof. John Mearsheimer, I, and others have said the same, we’ve been attacked as Putin apologists. The same critics also choose to hide or flatly ignore the dire warnings against NATO enlargement to Ukraine, long articulated by many of America’s leading diplomats, including the great scholar-statesman George Kennan, and the former U.S. ambassadors to Russia Jack Matlock and William Burns.

Burns, now C.I.A. director, was U.S. ambassador to Russia in 2008, and author of a memo entitled “Nyet means Nyet.” In that memo, Burns explained to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the entire Russian political class, not just Putin, was dead-set against NATO enlargement. We know about the memo only because it was leaked. Otherwise, we’d be in the dark about it.

Why does Russia oppose NATO enlargement? For the simple reason that Russia does not accept the U.S. military on its 2,300 km border with Ukraine in the Black Sea region. Russia does not appreciate the U.S. placement of Aegis missiles in Poland and Romania after the U.S. unilaterally abandoned the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty.

Russia’s Reasons
Russia also does not welcome the fact that the U.S. engaged in no fewer than 70 regime change operations during the Cold War (1947-1989), and countless more since, including in Serbia, Afghanistan, Georgia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Venezuela, and Ukraine. Nor does Russia like the fact that many leading U.S. politicians actively advocate the destruction of Russia under the banner of “Decolonizing Russia.” That would be like Russia calling for the removal of Texas, California, Hawaii, the conquered Indian lands, and much else, from the United States.

Even Zelensky’s team knew that the quest for NATO enlargement meant imminent war with Russia. Oleksiy Arestovych, former adviser to the Office of the President of Ukraine under Zelensky, declared that “with a 99.9 percent probability, our price for joining NATO is a big war with Russia.”

Arestovych claimed that even without NATO enlargement, Russia would eventually try to take Ukraine, just many years later. Yet history belies that. Russia respected Finland’s and Austria’s neutrality for decades, with no dire threats, much less invasions. Moreover, from Ukraine’s independence in 1991 until the U.S.-backed overthrow of Ukraine’s elected government in 2014, Russia didn’t show any interest in taking Ukrainian territory.

It was only when the U.S. installed a staunchly anti-Russian, pro-NATO regime in February 2014 that Russia took back Crimea, concerned that its Black Sea naval base in Crimea (since 1783) would fall into NATO’s hands.

Even then, Russia didn’t demand other territory from Ukraine, only fulfillment of the U.N.-backed Minsk II Agreement, which called for autonomy of the ethnic-Russian Donbass, not a Russian claim on the territory. Yet instead of diplomacy, the U.S. armed, trained and helped to organize a huge Ukrainian army to make NATO enlargement a fait accompli.

Putin made one last attempt at diplomacy at the end of 2021, tabling a draft U.S.-NATO Security Agreement to forestall war. The core of the draft agreement was an end of NATO enlargement and removal of U.S. missiles near Russia. Russia’s security concerns were valid and the basis for negotiations. Yet Biden flatly rejected negotiations out of a combination of arrogance, hawkishness and profound miscalculation. NATO maintained its position that NATO would not negotiate with Russia regarding NATO enlargement, that in effect, NATO enlargement was none of Russia’s business.

The continuing U.S. obsession with NATO enlargement is profoundly irresponsible and hypocritical. The U.S. would object — by means of war, if needed — to being encircled by Russian or Chinese military bases in the Western Hemisphere, a point the U.S. has made since the Monroe Doctrine of 1823. Yet the U.S. is blind and deaf to the legitimate security concerns of other countries.

So, yes, Putin went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to Russia’s border. Ukraine is being destroyed by U.S. arrogance, proving again Henry Kissinger’s adage that to be America’s enemy is dangerous, while to be its friend is fatal.

The Ukraine War will end when the U.S. acknowledges a simple truth: NATO enlargement to Ukraine means perpetual war and Ukraine’s destruction. Ukraine’s neutrality could have avoided the war, and remains the key to peace. The deeper truth is that European security depends on collective security as called for by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), not one-sided NATO demands.
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/09/21/j ... struction/
#15288533
GandalfTheGrey wrote:Its rich, to put it mildly, to paint the west and Ukraine as nazis and nazi lovers in order to excuse Russian aggression - given how Putin literally courts nazis to secure his power base and crush dissidents - and has been doing so for years:

Now of course the wonderful thing about Nazis is that anybody you want to be a Nazi can be a Nazi, and anybody you want to not be a Nazi can not be a Nazi.

However there was a crucial ingredient for the real Nazis that often gets missed. When I'm arguing with Liberals about fascism, I'm pretty sure they that a few times they are about to say "Yes but Mussolini and the Italians weren't really fascist," and then they stop themselves. Even when people say fascist they don't really want us to think of Mussolini and the Partito Nazionale Fascista, they want us to think of Hitler, the NSDAP and its child organisations.

The crucial ingredient was peace time democracy. The Nazis spent 14 years of struggle in a democracy. That was vital to making them who they were when they came to power. No Nazi movement has got a chance of ever really getting off the ground in Putin's authoritarian Russia.

No the only hope for those that want to see a real Nazi movement in Russia is for Russia to lose and Putin to fall. There could be no Hitler till the Kaiser and Ludendorff fell. And the same now applies to Ukraine.
#15288540
The delusions are really strong with that lot, that they're still pretending there are no nazis in the Ukrainian army. Granted, a lot of them are probably dead now, but they are very nazi and Banderites and they even celebrate Stefan Bandera's birthday as state policy in Ukraine.

Azov, Right Sector, Aidar and C-14 are just some of the nazi battalions within the army. But libs like Gandalf would prefer to be on the side of nazis because they hate Russia that much. Even when people within the state like Jeffrey Sachs, when academics like John Mearsheimer and ex army leaders like Douglas MacGregror admit and explain how this is a U.S. proxy war against Russia using Ukrainian pawns "to the last Ukrainian" if that's what it takes, since they clearly don't care about Ukrainians.

When libs tolerated nazis during world war two so easily, one might now be able to see why it was as easy as it is today, even with all that access to information we have now..

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
#15288711
skinster wrote:Where did @GandalfTheGrey go? In fact, where did all the slava ukraini dorks go? Have they finally accepted reality and their side's loss in the war?





Even your side is reporting a major escalation in Ukraine's push in the key Robotyne sector, including a significant use of heavy mechanized equipment for the first time in this current assault. That would only be possible if a) the breach had been widened significantly enough to fit a big enough force of armour to conduct such an assault and b) Russian artillery had been degraded in the area enough to allow said Armour to start playing a role.

Currently there seems to be an information blackout on how this renewed push is going, but what is significant is that Russian bots who are usually very quick to pounce on any half legitimate evidence of Ukrainian failure, have so far been silent on any claims the push has been successfully repulsed. They tried yesterday by releasing footage of burnt out Ukrainian armour, but it turned out to be geolocated several miles back from the current frontline, where there had been no fighting since August.

I mentioned a couple of days ago the Ukrainians gained a foothold in both key villages of Verbove and Novoprokopivka, seemingly simultaneously. This is significant because it means the Ukrainians breached the main defensive lines in front of both villages. Since then it's basically been radio silence on both sides, apart from the aforementioned murmurs by Russian bloggers of a new Ukrainian surge.

So we'll see how this goes. There's no point in speculating until we get more reports. What we can say with absolute certainty though is that Ukraine has in no way already "lost" as you keep idiotically repeating.
#15288733
skinster wrote:Did that guy die though or what? :lol:


hilarious isn't it?

If he really is alive and well, then it wouldn't be fucking hard for the Russian authorities to conclusively prove it now would it? Just get him in front of the camera and say "hello, today is [today's date], and the missile strike that hit Black Sea HQ totally did *NOT* kill me." And that would be the end of it.

Why roll out an imminently easy-to-doctor shot of him allegedly attending a meeting (where he is never seen moving), and an ambiguous interview of him where he doesn't even mention the attack and how he survived it?
#15288741
GandalfTheGrey wrote:hilarious isn't it?

If he really is alive and well, then it wouldn't be fucking hard for the Russian authorities to conclusively prove it now would it? Just get him in front of the camera and say "hello, today is [today's date], and the missile strike that hit Black Sea HQ totally did *NOT* kill me." And that would be the end of it.

Why roll out an imminently easy-to-doctor shot of him allegedly attending a meeting (where he is never seen moving), and an ambiguous interview of him where he doesn't even mention the attack and how he survived it?


My bullshit detector is telling me that this Russian general is very likely dead.

Same bullshit detector has also been telling me since May-June of this year that the Ukrainian counter-offensive has been a total failure.

If your bullshit detector is giving you different signals perhaps you should adjust the bias lever on it.
#15288744
my bullshit detector says that the shrill cries since early June that the Ukrainian offensive is an utter failure and they have completely lost - even as they continue to take ground (albeit painfully slowly) and inflict heavy losses on the Russians - are increasingly sounding more and more unhinged.
#15288745
GandalfTheGrey wrote:my bullshit detector says that the shrill cries since early June that the Ukrainian offensive is an utter failure and they have completely lost - even as they continue to take ground (albeit painfully slowly) and inflict heavy losses on the Russians - are increasingly sounding more and more unhinged.


Your bs detector is malfunctioning gravely and is clearly influenced by your reaction to certain people instead of actual ground reality. This is a severe problem for a lot of people.

Ukraine has taken 0 ground. In fact, if one sits down and measures the ground gained and lost since December or even June, you will see that Ukraine has lost more ground than it has gained. The counter-offensive was lost before it even begun in Bakhmut back in April.

Bakhmut was supposed to be the main forward position and Ukraine lost Bakhmut(its main forward base) as it started the counter-offensive. This was a decapitation move by the Russians. This has been enough to declare the counteroffensive dead since then and nothing has changed since, despite 2-3 renewed counter-offensives from Ukraine to retrieve Bakhmut specifically.

This fact does not require pundits or comments, just open a war map and see for yourself. It grabs half a km in the south and loses 2km in the east at the same time.

Purple = New Ukraine gains
Dark red = New Russian gains.
Image

The dark red is more than the purple, but even if we split hairs about it.

One has got to be a retard to declare that Ukraine is moving forward. It's not moving anywhere at all and even pundits from the warmongering Telegraph admit it so to be.

Since you are openly arguing that this purple and dark red justify Ukraine carrying on, you would have to justify this type of utterly useless warmongering.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15288749
skinster wrote:Have they finally accepted reality and their side's loss in the war?



Depends on what you define as loss.

At this point, it's not a complete loss for either side, but it is still a bigger (strategic) loss for Russia so far. This has been discussed at length here though.
User avatar
By noemon
#15288750
Rancid wrote:Depends on what you define as loss.

At this point, it's not a complete loss for either side, but it is still a bigger (strategic) loss for Russia so far. This has been discussed at length here though.


Losers in real order:

Ukraine is the top loser of this. Has lost, territories, money, people, infrastructure and has not gained anything.
Europe is second loser, has lost its energy supplies and its sanctions are hurting EU economies more than Russia.
Russia is third loser, it has gained ground, sanctions have not even touched it as it still has an account surplus and Brics have gone on fast-forward. So, one could say that Russia may not even be a loser.
Big winner US and its industrial complex, with minimal effort it now totally controls Europe's energy, it has cornered Russia and has forced all of Europe to re-arm with its weapons. At the same time it has announced multiple trillions in subsidies for batteries and green tech, effectively cornering this market too in the west.
#15288754
This is still very much happening on a daily basis that people who support the Ukrainian side of the war seek to ignore. Odd move considering they're trying to give the impression they care about Ukrainians.


GandalfTheGrey wrote:hilarious isn't it?


It was you that was laughing like a psychopath when declaring his unconfirmed death.

If he really is alive and well, then it wouldn't be fucking hard for the Russian authorities to conclusively prove it now would it?

Just get him in front of the camera and say "hello, today is [today's date], and the missile strike that hit Black Sea HQ totally did *NOT* kill me." And that would be the end of it.


No it wouldn't, because your side are constantly saying 'we killed x' or 'we did this thing we didn't' or 'we are winning in the counter-offensive' and it always turns out to be bullshit. Your side of the debate is highly unreliable and basically full of shit too, but you have to be to maintain the charade, as you poorly do.

The Russians, based on how they operate, would not air a meeting that included him if he was dead, so I'm going to go with 'he's alive' until there is evidence otherwise.

GandalfTheGrey wrote:shrill cries


are increasingly sounding more and more unhinged.


You are projecting your own responses here. You are the one who intermittently comes into the debate to claim X or Y, things that are delusional at best.

The Ukrainians are not winning any counter-offensive. All the analysts I listen to are stating the Ukrainians have lost and I trust them more than the lies that come from the empire of lies and its bootlickers. Even Western corporate news is reporting to that effect in the last month or so. They wouldn't do that if they were winning.
#15288767
Lee Camp wrote:New reporting from Seymour Hersh:
"An American intelligence official I spoke with... told me, 'The war is over. Russia has won. There is no Ukrainian offensive anymore, but the White House and the American media have to keep the lie going. The truth is if the Ukrainian army is ordered to continue the offensive, the army would mutiny. The soldiers aren’t willing to die any more, but this doesn’t fit the B.S. that is being authored by the Biden White House.' ”
Source


GandalfTheGrey wrote:Russian shill Scott Ritter promising us back in January that Ukraine's military capability would be "done" by August this year


Why quote him out of context when anyone can watch the video? He is referring to Zelenskyy saying if he doesn't get the Abraham tanks by August, it'll be too late, suggesting that he knows Ukraine is losing the war because Russians are succeeding on the frontlines and Ukrainians are not, and that there are no Ukrainian reserves left (hence why they've been dragging Ukrainian men off the streets like I showed in the video above that you ignored). We have known this and last month the Ukrainian counter-offensive has been a failure. We have known in March/April too, when it was supposed to have started.
#15288773
noemon wrote:Your bs detector is malfunctioning gravely and is clearly influenced by your reaction to certain people instead of actual ground reality. This is a severe problem for a lot of people.

Ukraine has taken 0 ground. In fact, if one sits down and measures the ground gained and lost since December or even June, you will see that Ukraine has lost more ground than it has gained. The counter-offensive was lost before it even begun in Bakhmut back in April.

Bakhmut was supposed to be the main forward position and Ukraine lost Bakhmut(its main forward base) as it started the counter-offensive. This was a decapitation move by the Russians. This has been enough to declare the counteroffensive dead since then and nothing has changed since, despite 2-3 renewed counter-offensives from Ukraine to retrieve Bakhmut specifically.

This fact does not require pundits or comments, just open a war map and see for yourself. It grabs half a km in the south and loses 2km in the east at the same time.

Purple = New Ukraine gains
Dark red = New Russian gains.
Image

The dark red is more than the purple, but even if we split hairs about it.

One has got to be a retard to declare that Ukraine is moving forward. It's not moving anywhere at all and even pundits from the warmongering Telegraph admit it so to be.

Since you are openly arguing that this purple and dark red justify Ukraine carrying on, you would have to justify this type of utterly useless warmongering.


Please don't verbal me, I said nothing of the sort. And Ukraine is moving forward - that is just a simple statement of fact. They moved forward through Robotyne, then over the Sirovikin line, and most recently into the outskirts of Novoprovopivka and Verbove. A very slow, yet undeniable forward movement from their perspective. I make no claims or predictions about what significance this holds for Ukraine's overall chances in the war, and I certainly don't claim any justifications one way or the other. I'm just stating the facts as I understand them.
User avatar
By noemon
#15288775
Military operations start as early as weather allows, it could even be February, March-April is already late to start and you ought to be swinging by then. The reason why the counter-offensive was "delayed" was because Ukraine lost its main forward base(its main battle fortress) in Bakhmut so the counter-offensive was pushed back until Ukraine would recover it but when it became plainly obvious it would not it was June-July and the west was pressing for counter-offensive results while Ukraine was on the back foot so supposedly the new counter-offensive begun after Ukraine regrouped and relocated some of its main forces from Bakhmut to Robotyne so it can make some gains and keep some pressure on the Russians.


Please don't verbal me, I said nothing of the sort. And Ukraine is moving forward - that is just a simple statement of fact. They moved forward through Robotyne, then over the Sirovikin line, and most recently into the outskirts of Novoprovopivka and Verbove. A very slow, yet undeniable forward movement from their perspective. I make no claims or predictions about what significance this holds for Ukraine's overall chances in the war, and I certainly don't claim any justifications one way or the other. I'm just stating the facts as I understand them.


The Russians made the same slow and undeniable forward movement in several other locations which is what normally happens in such lengthy battle-lines.

This is not about Ukraine's or Russia's perspective. It's about reality from any perspective. As skinster said, you are clearly projecting as you moan about reacting to other people's comments and yet you refuse to take your own non-bs and logical position and you are instead aiming to keep a charade on by falling back to other "people's perspective" again.

Dude. Seriously.
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