"Discrimination" presupposes there are not enough good jobs for everyone - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15228630
We are told that employment discrimination is a bad thing and should be illegal.
But doesn't that presuppose that there are not enough of the better jobs for everybody?

And if that is true, if there are a limited number of the better jobs that exist, then wouldn't it also be true that immigration - adding more people - is going to result in fewer of those good jobs being available?

Isn't immigration going to do the same thing that employment discrimination does?

This does seem to be a huge little economic inconsistency that the ideology on the Left has.


We've even heard some arguments that "immigrants create their own wealth". Well, if this were really true, isn't it also true that the discriminated could "create their own wealth" too? What is it exactly that is preventing them from being compensated in proportion to how much they contribute, under the free market system?

Please, let's try to be logical about this.
#15228631
Puffer Fish wrote:We are told that employment discrimination is a bad thing and should be illegal.
But doesn't that presuppose that there are not enough of the better jobs for everybody?
The second has nothing to do with the first.

Are you saying that ALL jobs are equal? :eh: Do all jobs grant the same benefits for employment and give a living wage? What is a "better job", according to you?

Puffer Fish wrote:Isn't immigration going to do the same thing that employment discrimination does?
No, it doesn't do the same thing.

You know who is a BIG proponent for immigration? Big corporations. It keeps the wages lower when they have more manpower, which in turn keeps wages low.

Do you know who doesn't want companies to be fined for hiring illegals, via existing laws?

Take a guess. :roll:

Hint: Corporations.

Puffer Fish wrote:This does seem to be a huge little economic inconsistency that the ideology on the Left has.
The "left" has nothing to do with this. You're attributing something to the left that has nothing to do with the left. :knife: It smacks of desperation, and once again, you pushing a false narrative.
#15228652
Godstud wrote:The second has nothing to do with the first.

The "left" has nothing to do with this. You're attributing something to the left that has nothing to do with the left. :knife: It smacks of desperation, and once again, you pushing a false narrative.

You failed to make any argument. You just claimed I was wrong. You realise this, don't you?

Emotional words that might sound to some like an argument are not a real argument. I'm not even talking about a logical argument, I'm claiming you did not even actually make any argument at all, logical or not.
#15228655
I am sorry that you are incapable of understanding the most simple of arguments. Perhaps when you come up with one, instead of just trying to incorrectly blame a mysterious non-existent group of people for your every trouble, it will be clearer. You ignored the rest of my post, and cherry-picked out one sentence.
#15228660
Puffer Fish wrote:
We are told that employment discrimination is a bad thing and should be illegal.
But doesn't that presuppose that there are not enough of the better jobs for everybody?

And if that is true, if there are a limited number of the better jobs that exist, then wouldn't it also be true that immigration - adding more people - is going to result in fewer of those good jobs being available?

Isn't immigration going to do the same thing that employment discrimination does?

This does seem to be a huge little economic inconsistency that the ideology on the Left has.


We've even heard some arguments that "immigrants create their own wealth". Well, if this were really true, isn't it also true that the discriminated could "create their own wealth" too? What is it exactly that is preventing them from being compensated in proportion to how much they contribute, under the free market system?

Please, let's try to be logical about this.



You're babbling.
#15228721
late wrote:You're babbling.

It's amazing the capacity of people to not see things when they don't want to see things.

It's also amazing how many people have short attention spans and refuse to accept anything unless it's spoonfed to them in simple easy to think about slogans.


I was just pointing out the inconsistency of the Left. That when it comes to worries about "discrimination", they will stick to the idea that there are not enough of the good jobs available to everyone (that discrimination is responsible for poverty, etc), but then when it comes to the issue of immigration, they seem to do a complete 180, there will be plenty enough good jobs for everyone.

Obviously both arguments cannot both be true, because they conflict/contradict with each other.
#15228722
Puffer Fish wrote:
It's amazing the capacity of people to not see things when they don't want to see things.

It's also amazing how many people have short attention spans and refuse to accept anything unless it's spoonfed to them in simple easy to think about slogans.



You're talking about yourself.

Let's assume you want to publish this in an academic journal. You need facts, and in depth analysis. You need something like that. It's out there, although it won't say what you want it to.

You don't spout off like a drunk in a bar.
#15228726
late wrote:Let's assume you want to publish this in an academic journal. You need facts, and in depth analysis.

I tried that before. It's a wasted effort in these forums. Most of the people want simple ideas and concepts. They won't bother to read or think about it if it's too complicated, or the text is more than a couple of paragraphs.

late wrote:You need something like that. It's out there, although it won't say what you want it to.

There's no way to "prove" this with numbers. I'm just asking people to try to use some basic logic.

It strongly seems to me like you're trying to deflect by making this overcomplicated. Asking for "proof" or "evidence" when you're unwilling to think about a basic concept and try to apply some logic to it.
#15228731
wat0n wrote:You can perfectly have discrimination if there are more openings than job seekers. Why not?

Then it sounds to me like discrimination is not something we need to worry about. If they are discriminated trying to get one job, they can easily find another.

And do you really think an employer is going to discriminate if he can't find anyone else to fulfill that job? Unlikely.
Businesses are motivated by money. Businesses are not going to discriminate if it costs them money.
#15228732
Puffer Fish wrote:We are told that employment discrimination is a bad thing and should be illegal.
But doesn't that presuppose that there are not enough of the better jobs for everybody?


Employment discrimination is bad. Discrimination is bad. Have you experienced any sort of discrimination in your life before? I know I have as I'm from an ethnic minority. I am an Asian. Job discrimination isn't illegal but there is the Equal Opportunity Employment Act to try to insure that people regardless of race, gender, religious beliefs, handicaps, etc. are given a fair chance to apply and interview for jobs. This is a federal government act by the way.

Define "better jobs". Currently there is a shortage of qualified workers for all sorts of jobs.

And if that is true, if there are a limited number of the better jobs that exist, then wouldn't it also be true that immigration - adding more people - is going to result in fewer of those good jobs being available?


Where is your evidence that allows you to conclude that your premise is true? I have not heard of a limited number of these "better jobs that exist" as you claim. Is this hearsay?

Isn't immigration going to do the same thing that employment discrimination does?


Umm, what? Immigration has been happening since like before the US became 50 states as we know it now. It does not follow that immigration can result in a decrease of these "better jobs" that you speak of. This is typical narrowminded conservative talk that accuses immigrants of hogging all the good jobs. This is just untrue. The question is, are immigrants more suited for these better jobs than natural born American citizens? Hmmm. It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

This does seem to be a huge little economic inconsistency that the ideology on the Left has.


How funny that you should say that. Sure just call everything you cannot understand an "inconsistency" from the Left.


We've even heard some arguments that "immigrants create their own wealth".


Some immigrants bring some wealth from their own country. I am not sure how this signifies or how this is relevant.

Well, if this were really true, isn't it also true that the discriminated could "create their own wealth" too? What is it exactly that is preventing them from being compensated in proportion to how much they contribute, under the free market system?


You speak of creating wealth like people creating a painting. Wealth accumulation is not that simple and depends on numerous lifestyle factors which is not relevant to this thread. Management of the organization determines how much employees are paid based on factors like experience, education and tenure at the company, I thought this was obvious. If by contributing you mean like if they contribute 50% to management decisions, I do not think that is how compensation is determined.

Please, let's try to be logical about this.


Is this even possible? I am finding some of your claims to be anything but logical.
#15228735
Puffer Fish wrote:Then it sounds to me like discrimination is not something we need to worry about. If they are discriminated trying to get one job, they can easily find another.

And do you really think an employer is going to discriminate if he can't find anyone else to fulfill that job? Unlikely.
Businesses are motivated by money. Businesses are not going to discriminate if it costs them money.


So you think it would be okay if an employer paid a worker less solely because of something like race?

Although the job market can be flexible, there are limits to that flexibility. Switching jobs is not cheap.
#15228746
@Puffer Fish You neglected to explain what a "better job" is. I asked you and you won't answer the question, because it's a vague reference to something that doesn't exist, en masse.

Were a waiter job to pay $18/hr and provide you with benefits like health insurance, sick leave, vacation time, etc., then I'd believe your "better job" nonsense. It doesn't.

You've explained nothing, and all you do is to blame "the left", which is some vague and powerful mysterious entity that causes all the worldly problems to dumb Trump worshippers.
#15228986
wat0n wrote:So you think it would be okay if an employer paid a worker less solely because of something like race?

What you're doing is whataboutism.

It's totally fine if one employer wants to pay this worker less, because the worker could always find another employer who will value him.

You just don't want to admit that there are limited supply of good jobs.

wat0n wrote:Although the job market can be flexible, there are limits to that flexibility. Switching jobs is not cheap.

This doesn't have anything to do with switching jobs.
#15228988
Godstud wrote:@Puffer Fish You neglected to explain what a "better job" is. I asked you and you won't answer the question, because it's a vague reference to something that doesn't exist, en masse.

I don't need to get into specifics because it's a general concept.

You are intentionally making this overcomplicated.

If it helps you conceptualize this, you can imagine it is purely an issue of pay, if you want.
#15228994
Puffer Fish wrote:What you're doing is whataboutism.

It's totally fine if one employer wants to pay this worker less, because the worker could always find another employer who will value him.

You just don't want to admit that there are limited supply of good jobs.


Not whataboutism, just another way discrimination can take place.

And employers are the demand side here.

Puffer Fish wrote:This doesn't have anything to do with switching jobs.


Yes it does. If you're underpaid you can ideally switch to a better job.
#15228998
To the OP: having more people in a city means more jobs created. Immigrants need to eat, need a place to live, need cars to drive, and need to buy everything you and I do. They are increasing total GDP. That means they're creating jobs too.

Whether they increase GDP per capita I guess depends on the type of immigrants imported, ie: employable skills/education. There's a big difference in an engineer vs someone with a high school diploma or less who grew up in poverty.
#15229004
Puffer Fish wrote:I don't need to get into specifics because it's a general concept.
If you aren't going to define it, then you can't argue it in any rational, or even logical, way.

Thus it only goes to demonstrate that you have an agenda here, that is likely a racist one(as going by what you've already said in this thread). :knife:
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