[annatar1914]

Okay, thanks -- just asking.

So is your concern about *cultural relations* within the former USSR -- ?










---





The phrase you used sounds like it could have been lifted from something *Rich* would say, with his 'clash-of-civilizations' Islamophobic politics.

I *haven't* been trying 'to shut down conversation'.

I *haven't* been doing any troll-like behavior -- I'm *issue*-oriented.

@ckaihatsu :

Your replies show me that you still don't get it, and probably don't want to. Here we are in the " spirituality" part of PoFo, and you should reflect on that.

Secondarily, you show that this is so insofar as you use a neologism invented and " weaponized" to create a narrative and set a tone before another person can reply, it is fundamentally malicious, dishonest, loaded, and false. You didn't just randomly use the phrase in the interests of arriving at a common understanding of the truth, but a denial of such an arrival. I am afraid that you most likely operate in bad faith, and as such you are not someone who I want to waste time talking to on the thread I originated to discuss themes that go far beyond politics, but do include it.

[annatar1914]

And so, we return to the themes of this thread. For the " man of lawlessness" is Antichrist. Is he some kind of Barbarian? No, for Barbarism in my worldview is the world of sacredness of the oath, of honor and holding to the spirit and the letter of the laws of one's people. Civilization in contrast is where sacredness and honor, laws and oaths, go to die, drowned in a sea of legalism, truths inscribed by laws condemned by exceptions and exemptions and nullified. Sacred spaces turned out in favor of marketplaces.

Thus we find that with the Christian, all this is interiorized within one's person. One follows the laws in spirit, with a Love that renders the letter of negative condemnations unnecessary.

Is Islam then in contrast the religion of civilization, of mankind and the city of man? Trump for example (to recall the murder of general Soleimani )would then be it's subject, eyes for eyes and tooth for tooth and then some, the retaliation back and forth sure to follow. All heresies and schisms a kind of preparatory Dhimmitude out in the non Islamic " Dar ul Harb" or " House of War", where things gradually become Islamic over time if not successfully contested by the non Muslims.

So anyway, I will proceed to the next step in my argument:

What smart elites in the modern world think, and will think, upon what I have said so far.

A leadership leads these days often by determining important trends and then coming out and placing themselves in front of them.

I suspect that the majority of world leaders in the Western and Modernistic world know that Islam will be the most numerous and dominant religious culture in less than 100 years. The smart and less culturally attached (to the Western heritage) will have bet upon Islam as the future of the Western world. They're not going to risk deprivation of their wealth and power by fighting it. And in a strictly naturalistic and worldly sense, they would not need to, it would be superfluous, unnecessary. In fact, they would hinder the efforts of those persons who would resist, I am thinking. A later phase would end in their conversion.

[ckaihatsu]

themes that go far beyond politics

I think our conceptions of 'living', and 'politics' may differ greatly in *magnitude* -- here's my conception of the scale of the *individual* / small-group ('lifestyle'), versus that of necessarily *large-scale* *politics*.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

And:


universal context

Spoiler: show

[annatar1914]

I think our conceptions of 'living', and 'politics' may differ greatly in *magnitude* -- here's my conception of the scale of the *individual* / small-group ('lifestyle'), versus that of necessarily *large-scale* *politics*.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

And:


universal context

Spoiler: show

@ckaihatsu :

" magnitude".

You don't understand at all. Frankly it's worrisome.

No, the difference is not in " magnitude", but in kind. You are not a machine. We are not machines. We are so much more. This is what this section of the Forum is about.

I believe that all created things from atoms to angels and man in between have life, occupy space in at least 3 dimensions, and are in fact material beings of some sort. I am not a medieval scholastic. However matter is not an eternal self subsistent self created thing, as per George Berkeley. It is created and has a Creator or Creator(s). I have further beliefs which narrow that down

If we can agree on at least like that ( and in this section that's not asking for much from you!) we can have a conversation, otherwise it is impossible simply put, with no worthwhile reason for you to be here without wasting your time and mine.

[Verv]

I'll try to be more active - I have fallen into the rut where I have seen the thread several times and I have not added replies because I ended up spending a lot of time just reading the content and not actually posting, lol.

Again, nothing impedes the movement of history, of divine providence. Two directions, two destinations. In the meantime, the problems laid out by the likes of Blessed Augustine in the " City of God", to use an example. But it would possibly be rather easy to take this too far and to fall into a kind of Quietist pessimism, to surrender the world which Christ gave His life for completely to the forces of darkness and death.

We have a knightly duty to resist evil by force if necessary, a moral imperative, regardless even of the " chances" of winning.

My Bishop had stated once that it is a sacred duty that we fight to give God a place of respect in society. Of course, this was the last point of several that he had made during a particularly wonderful homily....

The overall message seemed to be that we need to be free of anxiety and fear, absolutely peaceful and non-quarrelsome, have an active prayer life, carry all of our burdens given to us, and through this, we are a light to others, and that we then spread Christianity, fulfilling a sacred duty to see that God has a place of respect in our society...

I have very much remembered this over the years... We are in a unique spot since Christians only make up roughly 25% of Korea, and the message was never that we should force Christianity on the rest of society. It was rather that the spread of Christianity and our dignity as Christians living worry-free and carrying the cross was something that itself fulfills the sacred duty that God receives a place of respect.

I think this has to do with the knightly duty Christians can have even as a minority in a foreign society where they traditionally make up almost none of the population.

We do not need to think so much in terms of the grandiose historical narratives... Just our personal lives and immediate surroundings is sometimes the battlefield.

The reason that Christianity is in such retreat perhaps is due to the hypocrisy of Christians while they have had political power .

Heraclius was the sword in the right hand of God, just as Stalin was during the Great Patriotic War, and just as the Assyrians were back in the day. That sword does not need to understand anything; it merely has to smite the enemies of God without breaking in his hand.

Oh yeah, there is precedent for this. Cyrus the Great was referred to as anointed by God in the Old Testament.

Christianity was born in a world that already had advanced civil government and so Christianity's position has always been under the State.

This is also something for which there is an awful lot of text to back it up... Even the sort of text that is often used to criticize Christianity - servants obey your masters type stuff.

It's undeniably true...

And many even say that the second covenant came at the time that it did because it required these advancements in society for the Messiah to bring everyone into the fold. I can't find any way to argue against it.

It is the case that Christians faced much persecution in the early days. Maybe it is acceptable to argue something like... how advanced civil government was able to be restored beecause the Hellenic idea of logos over everything had spread through Rome and was thoroughly universalized. We could even say that Cyrus the Great had some inkling of this with his declaration of human rights... and the Hebrews also affirm it by some of the attitudes in the Torah... Yet it was Greek thought and Roman systems that made it an indelible part of the Western world...

So even during periods of tyranny, it can exist as a memory.

Christianity ultimately may be the elixir that immortalized it, for the message of Christ is about grace, and how the thief and the adulteress can enter the Kingdom of God through repentance while the Pharisees who is in good standing has doomed themselves. It also has the extremely transgressive message of Christ praising the Centurion (foreign occupier) and Samaritan woman at the well (untouchable, backwards neighbors). Personal status, national origin, even the role you may be playing in society as a Centurion or tax collector or even violent rebel doesn't have to be important...

This may not be reflected in the governments of Christian societies, but values are rarely reflected consistently in civil government. The hope has to be that the culture is able to restore the values enough so that they are never completely alienated from the people.

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu :

" magnitude".

You don't understand at all. Frankly it's worrisome.

No, the difference is not in " magnitude", but in kind. You are not a machine. We are not machines. We are so much more. This is what this section of the Forum is about.

I believe that all created things from atoms to angels and man in between have life, occupy space in at least 3 dimensions, and are in fact material beings of some sort. I am not a medieval scholastic. However matter is not an eternal self subsistent self created thing, as per George Berkeley. It is created and has a Creator or Creator(s). I have further beliefs which narrow that down

If we can agree on at least like that ( and in this section that's not asking for much from you!) we can have a conversation, otherwise it is impossible simply put, with no worthwhile reason for you to be here without wasting your time and mine.

It's *not* about magnitude -- ?

How 'magnitude' / large are the purported creator(s), in relation to the scale of any given person -- ?


3-Dimensional Axes of Social Reality

Spoiler: show

And:


History, Macro-Micro -- simplified

Spoiler: show

[annatar1914]

@Verv :


"I'll try to be more active - I have fallen into the rut where I have seen the thread several times and I have not added replies because I ended up spending a lot of time just reading the content and not actually posting, lol."

That is more my fault and certainly none of yours:-).



"My Bishop had stated once that it is a sacred duty that we fight to give God a place of respect in society. Of course, this was the last point of several that he had made during a particularly wonderful homily...."

Truth will out in any case.

"The overall message seemed to be that we need to be free of anxiety and fear, absolutely peaceful and non-quarrelsome, have an active prayer life, carry all of our burdens given to us, and through this, we are a light to others, and that we then spread Christianity, fulfilling a sacred duty to see that God has a place of respect in our society...

I have very much remembered this over the years... We are in a unique spot since Christians only make up roughly 25% of Korea, and the message was never that we should force Christianity on the rest of society. It was rather that the spread of Christianity and our dignity as Christians living worry-free and carrying the cross was something that itself fulfills the sacred duty that God receives a place of respect.

I think this has to do with the knightly duty Christians can have even as a minority in a foreign society where they traditionally make up almost none of the population.

We do not need to think so much in terms of the grandiose historical narratives... Just our personal lives and immediate surroundings is sometimes the battlefield.

The reason that Christianity is in such retreat perhaps is due to the hypocrisy of Christians while they have had political power ."

I'm inclined to think this way, hence my desire to speak more about the acquisition of the Holy Spirit on this thread. Ultimately I am close to a denial of many vanities, and a simple life far from the way I have been.

It's about the love of God, the grace given desire to seek after and find Him, to do His commandments and see Him in others as well, see all as being made in His Image. To forgive and have mercy, to seek justice and truth but also to render it and live it. To pray and to fast and to glorify Him, and seek divinization in His kingdom. Everything else should flow from that, and perhaps even in this life the experience of the Uncreated Light.

[annatar1914]

Back to the other thematic Pole of thought on this thread, the " red flag of revenge" or rather of the Iranian Islamic Revolution which every United States Government is fighting to one degree or other, at least by containment.

The death of General Soleimani indicates that this fight and it's aftermath must be seen from the perspective of the Muslim world, the common man on the street. Iran is seen even by Sunni Muslims as the chief resistance to Israel and the United States, with their front line aid to Hezbollah but also to Hamas as well, a Sunni Muslim Brotherhood type organization. That and Iranian aid to Houthis in Yemen and direct involvement in the Syrian war. This will have it's effect over time.

[annatar1914]

Back to the other thematic Pole of thought on this thread, the " red flag of revenge" or rather of the Iranian Islamic Revolution which every United States Government is fighting to one degree or other, at least by containment.

The death of General Soleimani indicates that this fight and it's aftermath must be seen from the perspective of the Muslim world, the common man on the street. Iran is seen even by Sunni Muslims as the chief resistance to Israel and the United States, with their front line aid to Hezbollah but also to Hamas as well, a Sunni Muslim Brotherhood type organization. That and Iranian aid to Houthis in Yemen and direct involvement in the Syrian war. This will have it's effect over time.

@Verv , @Potemkin:

https://youtu.be/w_SW7kWv9KM

Here is something which might illustrate the issue better than I can.

[ness31]

@Verv , @Potemkin:

https://youtu.be/w_SW7kWv9KM

Here is something which might illustrate the issue better than I can.

That’s just a regular afternoon in Iran. They’re all going to go outside, rehydrate with chai and be on their way

[annatar1914]

That’s just a regular afternoon in Iran. They’re all going to go outside, rehydrate with chai and be on their way

@ness31 :

I like Chai myself, maybe or maybe not as much as Persians, but that's quite an afternoon to follow up with, lol.

But my point remains that belief and the zeal to carry them out can accomplish much

[ness31]

@ness31 :

I like Chai myself, maybe or maybe not as much as Persians, but that's quite an afternoon to follow up with, lol.

But my point remains that belief and the zeal to carry them out can accomplish much

No disrespect to Persians, but they’re very animated people. They’re pissed off and rightly so, but I don’t think that will translate to anything practically speaking. Nothing like a conventional war of their own making, they’re too sophisticated for that.

But they will become nuclear capable if they aren’t already.

I once tried (very accidentally) to attend one of their all male, tea drinking rallies. I wasn’t permitted lol.

[annatar1914]

No disrespect to Persians, but they’re very animated people. They’re pissed off and rightly so, but I don’t think that will translate to anything practically speaking. Nothing like a conventional war of their own making, they’re too sophisticated for that.

But they will become nuclear capable if they aren’t already.

I once tried (very accidentally) to attend one of their all male, tea drinking rallies. I wasn’t permitted lol.

@ness31 :

Maybe I'm strange, but I think that Iran already has bought nuclear weapons a long time ago, otherwise somebody would have already ended their ambition to make their own nuclear weapons by now.

I love the Persians I've known. But they do concern me. The Revolution has made fools out of many people who too quickly consigned it to the dustbin of history.

[ness31]

Maybe I'm strange, but I think that Iran already has bought nuclear weapons a long time ago, otherwise somebody would have already ended their ambition to make their own nuclear weapons by now.

Maybe. That’s might be why they can talk the BIG talk

I love the Persians I've known.

Me too, they’re generous hospitable people.

But they do concern me.

I love that. So diplomatic..

I think (I hope) Iran will be alright. I think everyone forgets; they were the Persian empire, not backward savages without a clue. Their consciousness has terraformed to reflect their terrain but it’s also tempered with something soft. I don’t know where the softness comes from, but it’s there..

[Potemkin]

Maybe. That’s might be why they can talk the BIG talk



Me too, they’re generous hospitable people.





I love that. So diplomatic..

I think (I hope) Iran will be alright. I think everyone forgets; they were the Persian empire, not backward savages without a clue. Their consciousness has terraformed to reflect their terrain but it’s also tempered with something soft. I don’t know where the softness comes from, but it’s there..

It was there even in the time of Cyrus the Great, the “anointed of God”. He was the first world conqueror who came as a liberator rather than an oppressor.

[annatar1914]

It was there even in the time of Cyrus the Great, the “anointed of God”. He was the first world conqueror who came as a liberator rather than an oppressor.

@Potemkin :

History has a way of rhyming if not repeating, so here's to liberators instead of oppressors!

Iran still has much to offer the world.

[annatar1914]

My friends, it is sometimes the case that when one writes, the heart is saying one thing while the head is trying to make of it another thing altogether.

I began this thread in this series with a sense of unexpressed moral disgust at the actions of one of the Western elites. And that this action would not go without a full reply. I counterpoised such reflection with concerns that all the same, fear of Iran's revolution was justified, and that the Orthodox Christian response to a revolutionary Islam's takeover of the World would be tempered by a renewed spiritual enlightenment in the world, and thus mass conversion to Orthodoxy. I suspected, and still do suspect, that the Western elites treason would be completed by conversion to Islam instead, the " Iron and Clay" of St Daniel's prophecy.

A lot to unpack there, when unobscured the message of my thread is right there in the title, however I consciously denied it. " Raising the Red Flag" does herald the " Age of the Holy Spirit ", in which mankind is called to enlightenment which overflows into an affirmative social and collective response to the sovereign will of God: " Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven..."

It is as if I took the conclusions of my previous thread, and set out to deny those conclusions on an unconscious level. It's true that for one divided between Western life and training and Non Western culture and beliefs, this dichotomy could occur. It happens to millions of people I'm sure.

As @Verv said: " the hypocrisy of Christians". And @Potemkin and others would no doubt agree. For it's no small thing, a little insight, to determine that to do the right thing collectively speaking, man must in justice become Socialist and ignore all political and economic theory that suggests otherwise. But that to successfully do so demands an uncompromising adherence to the true Faith of God, with the social and economic aspects of life as almost an afterthought that flows from an inner conviction of love for God and one's fellow man.

So the meaning of the thread is greater than I was willing to face myself. And the previous concerns and reflections, while true and real, find their answer in confrontation with this more complete and deeper meaning. They need force and fraud to survive as long as they do, false systems, so the question is: how are force and fraud supporting organized collective evil, supporting man's physical and spiritual slavery, confronted? Certainly by the Truth.

So then I arrive at the conclusion that demands an even more thorough and complete critique of the modern Western bourgeoisie exemplified by such as President Trump on one hand, and the false theocracies of outworn false religions, supporting elite fascism, on the other.

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin , @Verv , and friends:

With this in mind, I'd like to examine the basic foundation of the problems associated with the thread in an eschatological sense. I speak only of the unenlightened of course:

Many people always and everywhere are Pagans. This worldly, which is not to say that they are Atheist strictly speaking, but relate to reality with a materialistic set of daily considerations: what shall I eat today? How much will things cost me? What pleasures can I indulge in, and pain avoid?

Most of these Pagans are working folk, which is to say that they cannot avoid a measure of suffering in this life. They are the Poor. Others much fewer constitute those living on rents and/or the labor of others, and they are those who constitute the Rich, the Bourgeoisie. Possessing a Will to Power, glory and conquests and the amassing of wealth and power are what impel them, or fear of poverty. Or envy of the Rich if actually Poor.

They tend to believe in mighty powers in the universe that can possibly help or harm them or might need to be placated in fear, for they think that these powers are pretty much as they are. In dealing with these powers they want this-worldly material results or they will search elsewhere for some other being who might complete the transactional results of riches or curses for others, success in love or other ventures. And these beings could be men, wealthy and powerful men who they can attach to for success, or the very gods, God Himself. They cannot be said to be atheists, who are universally rare in reality. For a Pagan to say they don't believe in God, is for them to say that they no longer have dealings with " God". This " God" or " that God", anyway. Not interested in Truth, just awed or intimidated or disappointed by power.

Even the goods and glories that they the Pagans do are just merely splendid vices, natural goods rewarded in this life and not the next. They cannot love God or their fellow man except in some abstract theoretical manner at best.

Regarding Christ and Christianity, the issue has never been disbelief in His miracles or those of His saints, but if He really was Who He says He Is. Magic for most Pagans is a distinct possibility in any case whatever His origin. If today Pagans do not call Christ an antisocial Black Magician who did what he did by some dark hidden arts, it is more out of fear than any theological qualms as such. Earlier Pagans had no such qualms. One's Fate/Chance/Necessity are what they truly follow in any case. Magic and Science/Technology are pretty much the same thing to them, and that is the " Modern/Premodern" distinction.

All their works are thus sins. They cannot love God Whom they do not really know or experience, and lack the Faith by which one can act well. They only seek temporal goods, and only find temporal goods.

If this is then the mass of mankind, at least we can then start with this honest assessment.

[annatar1914]

Gotta *call* it -- this is *chauvinism*, of one religion versus others, pagans in this case. Nothing new, of course.

It's holier-than-thou, internal-moral-universe -- and the franchising-out of nationalist moralism, per property-owner.

@ckaihatsu :

Is the man in a liferaft " chauvinistic" against a madman who is drowning and doesn't know that he is in fact drowning?

I guess "3" is prejudiced against "4" ? Maybe we should wear pants on our head and try to eat with our livers? Unbearably stupid.

There's nothing else to say.

[Potemkin]

@ckaihatsu

What @annatar1914 is saying is that even most so-called ‘Christians’ are in fact pagans in their hearts and in the values by which they live their lives. After all, what is the “Prosperity Gospel” of the American televangelists except paganism dressed up as Christianity, a parody of Christianity? You keep trying to paint @annatar1914 as a common-or-garden American Christian nationalist, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Not everything fits neatly into your 3-d diagrams or can be found in the hallowed pages of Chris Harman’s People’s History of the World, @ckaihatsu.