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By Fasces
#15288395
Reuters wrote:
MOSCOW, Sept 24 (Reuters) - The ethnic Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh will leave for Armenia as they do not want to live as part of Azerbaijan and fear ethnic cleansing, the leadership of the breakaway region told Reuters on Sunday.

"Our people do not want to live as part of Azerbaijan. 99.9% prefer to leave our historic lands," David Babayan, an adviser to Samvel Shahramanyan, the president of the self-styled "Republic of Artsakh".


Reuters wrote:In the Karabakh capital, known as Stepanakert by Armenia and Khankendi by Azerbaijan, crowds of people were loading belongings into buses and trucks as they left for Armenia.

Refugees who reached Armenia told Reuters they believed the history of their breakaway state was finished.

"No one is going back - that's it," Anna Agopyan, who reached Goris, a border town in Armenia, told Reuters. "The topic of Karabakh is over now for good I think."


The Armenians of Karabakh said Russia, the West and Armenia itself had abandoned them, and some spoke through tears of the end of an era for the Karabakh Armenians.

Petya Grigoryan, a 69-year-old driver, said his village in what the Armenians know as the Martakert district of Karabakh had been pummelled by Azerbaijan armed forces. There were two KAMAZ-truckloads full of civilian dead in the village, he said.

"There was nowhere to bury them," Grigoryan told Reuters

Of the 500 villagers, he said 40 had got out.

Reuters was unable to independently verify his account but it chimed with the outline given by other ethnic Armenians fleeing Karabakh, which Azerbaijan says will be turned into a "paradise" and fully integrated.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 023-09-24/


The ethnic cleansing of Nagorno-Karabakh is underway. 120,000 civilians will be forced to leave their homes behind and move out of Azerbaijan, as Azeri politicians continue to escalate violent rhetoric and begin justifying further invasions of Southern Armenia.

Aliev has been stoking nationalist and xenophobic attitudes for more than a decade now. At the last UEFA final in Baku, Armenian players for teams in the finalist were unable to attend due to fears of arrest or mob violence. The glorification of murderers like Ramil Safarov shows the openly genocidal attitude of the regime.

evnreport wrote: The position of the Azerbaijani leadership and society is more representative. For years, anti-Armenian discourse and propaganda have been part of official state policy. Every day, indoctrination is carried out from schools to state media that demonizes Armenians, presenting them as an absolute evil. In his many speeches, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev himself made openly racist, xenophobic remarks. In one of his famous addresses, he spoke about a “hypocritical global Armenian conspiracy and western politicians, who are embroiled in corruption and bribery,” a direct reproduction of Adolf Hitler’s “global Jewish conspiracy thesis,” reiterated many times in Nazi speeches as a pretext and justification for the Holocaust.

In his pronouncements, Aliyev deprives Armenians of the right to live in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) and in the Republic of Armenia, asserting that not only Karabakh but also other regions of Armenia, including the capital Yerevan, should become parts of Azerbaijan. The latest highlight was the menace of nuclear “catastrophe” made by Azerbaijani Defense Ministry spokesman Vagif Dargyakhly, who announced that their weapons “are capable of hitting the Metsamor Atomic Energy Station with high accuracy, which will turn into a catastrophe for Armenia.”

https://evnreport.com/politics/yes-it-is-genocidal/


Aliev has long made claims over a corridor in southern Armenia to connect Azerbaijan to its exclave in Nachkivan. With Turkish, Israeli, Iranian, and EU support (Azerbaijan being a major provider of fuel to the EU) and with the attitudes of the Azeri political elite, the war may escalate into an invasion of Armenia proper.

If Russia is unwilling, the US should prioritize raising the issue at the UNSC and ensure a multinational peacekeeping mission is deployed to at the very least prevent the escalation of ethnic cleansing.
#15288465
BBC wrote:
An explosion at a fuel depot in Nagorno-Karabakh has killed 20 people and injured hundreds more, local ethnic-Armenian authorities say.

Nearly 300 people were admitted to hospitals, with dozens of them reported to be in a critical condition.

It comes as the Armenian government said 19,000 refugees had crossed into the country from the enclave since local forces surrendered to Azerbaijan.

The disputed region is home to some 120,000 ethnic Armenians.

is not yet clear what caused the explosion on Monday evening near the main city of Khankendi, known as Stepanakert by Armenians.

Petrol stations have been overwhelmed as thousands try to leave the region, which was already suffering from a fuel shortage following a months-long blockade.

The only road connecting Armenia to the enclave remains backed up with hundreds of cars and buses, filled with ethnic Armenians trying to reach the town of Goris across the border.

The winding mountain road from Goris to Armenia's capital, Yerevan, has also been heavy with traffic from well before dawn.

A BBC team saw families crammed into cars, boots overflowing and roof-racks piled high with belongings. Convinced they are leaving their homes for good, people are squeezing as much of their lives as possible into their vehicles.

Inside Goris, a small town that is the same dusty brown as the jagged mountains that surround it, the narrow streets are filled with more cars and more families. One has arrived in a car held together with little more than sticking tape, its side badly dented and dotted with shrapnel holes, and windows smashed.

The owner tells the BBC it was hit by mortar fire when Azerbaijan launched a lightning assault to take control of the region last week. "But it still got us here," he smiles, surrounded by small children.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66921557.amp


Ethnic cleansing in full view of a silent world.
#15288466
Foreign Affairs wrote:
Azerbaijan, ended almost as soon as it began. At 1 PM on September 19, Azerbaijani forces began attacking the territory with artillery and drones in what it called an “antiterror” operation. Within 24 hours, the Karabakh Armenians, a population that has been pushed to the brink of famine by a months-long economic blockade, capitulated, leaving Azerbaijan in effective control of the territory.

The next phase of the tragedy is now unfolding. In scenes reminiscent of the Balkans in the 1990s, convoys of cars are filling the mountain road from Karabakh to Armenia carrying thousands of Karabakhis leaving their homeland with as much as they can carry. Many or most of this isolated population seem likely to join them in the coming days and weeks, in what could amount to yet another round of de facto ethnic cleansing in a region that has witnessed many such upheavals over the years.

There is a bigger long-term failure here, that of successive Western governments to prevent the violence in the first place and get Armenians and Azerbaijanis to agree an equitable resolution to this bitterly contested conflict.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/armenia/ ... o-karabakh


The West appears to be standing by becauee Armenia had the audacity to have had a pro-Russian and pro-Iranian foreign policy, a necessity for a state and people that Turkey and Azerbaijan, two key Western allies, would rather did not exist.

The ongoing silence is deafening.
#15288528
If the West doesn't see any political or economic value they will sit around and do nothing. They would rather see people DIE than have it cost them any money or gain.

Ukraine is a prime example of this.
#15288529
Fasces wrote:The West appears to be standing by becauee Armenia had the audacity to have had a pro-Russian and pro-Iranian foreign policy, a necessity for a state and people that Turkey and Azerbaijan, two key Western allies, would rather did not exist.

The ongoing silence is deafening.


It's amazingly sad the whole thing.

Armenian's foreign policy with both Iran and Russia aside from being a necessity is purely tokenistic as well.

Armenia is like Kurdistan, constantly betrayed by western suitors and ignored by its eastern suitors.
By Rich
#15288530
Fasces wrote:The West appears to be standing by becauee Armenia had the audacity to have had a pro-Russian and pro-Iranian foreign policy, a necessity for a state and people that Turkey and Azerbaijan, two key Western allies, would rather did not exist.

The ongoing silence is deafening.

This is what the Liberals wanted, or at least some of them. Litwin has laid out the programme for the destruction of the Russia and by extension Armenia. Russia is to be carved up by North Korea, China, the Taliban, Iran and Turkey. Is anyone stupid enough to imagine that Crimea will be Ukrainian Christian if Russia lose. Nagorny Karabach is the blue print for what will happen in Crimea.

The Liberals like to say that it all began in Crimea. For once they are kind of right. The Crimean war was the beginning of NATO, NATO 1,0 if you like. A war supposedly begun to create stability and restore the balance of power it actually opened the road to the Armenian genocide, undermined the Austro-Russian alliance, making room for the dominance of Prussia. The Liberals then solved this problem through the Franco-Russian alliance and the entente cordial, NATO 2.0.

Of course this then led on the little problem of the First world War. However the Liberals solved that problem by allying with Japan, Mussolini and Italian nationalists, subing out European security to the United States NATO 3.0, the Versailles treaty and the league of Nations..

Even the Versailles treaty and the league of Nations was not completely perfect and led to the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. So they first tried to solve this problem through their alliance with ex MI5 agent Mussolini, but that didn't work out and World War II happened.

The Liberals solved the World War II problem by allying with Joseph Stalin and again sub contracting out European security to the United States. NATO 4.0

However this created the problem of the Cold War. The Liberals solved this problem by officially creating NATO, trying to make the US a defacto world goverment and allying with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Turkey.
#15288628
Fasces wrote:' I left to stay alive': Nagorno-Karabakh empties of ethnic Armenians

42,500 / 120,000 ethnic Armenians have been displaced in less than a week. Faster rate than the Rwandan genocide - just a couple weeks more of vague condemantions and the "problem" will solve itself.


I think a greater problem is hypocrisy right now. Could the West really say much here when they are currently supporting Zelensky as he tries to push Ethnic Russians out of the Donbass and Crimea? And what is worse, if the West did intervene they would be fighting Russia on two proxy wars, one on where sovereignty is paramount to self determination and the other where self determination is paramount to sovereignty - a contradiction. And this is why I have no respect for any of our leader right now. There is no UN charter that is being followed except in regards to geopolitical strategy and no talks happening to save lives. The truth is, this issue will be ignored because there is no interest in the West over it. Obran supports Azerbaijan and that really is the final nail on the issue because Turkey is an important ally today. The same reason Trudeau is being sidelined as India is an important ally to us. And like Ukraine, the only solution to this is talks... and more specifically talks between the US and Russia which would save lives and migration. But as both are currently preoccupied with Ukraine, Azerbaijan can do whatever they like. It is their territory whether that is morally acceptable or not.
#15288629
B0ycey wrote:I think a greater problem is hypocrisy right now. Could the West really say much here when they are currently supporting Zelensky as he tries to push Ethnic Russians out of the Donbass and Crimea? And what is worse, if the West did intervene they would be fighting Russia on two proxy wars, one on where sovereignty is paramount to self determination and the other where self determination is paramount to sovereignty - a contradiction. And this is why I have no respect for any of our leader right now. There is no UN charter that is being followed except in regards to geopolitical strategy and no talks happening to save lives. The truth is, this issue will be ignored because there is no interest in the West over it. Obran supports Azerbaijan and that really is the final nail on the issue because Turkey is an important ally today. The same reason Trudeau is being sidelined as India is an important ally to us. And like Ukraine, the only solution to this is talks... and more specifically talks between the US and Russia which would save lives and migration. But as both are currently preoccupied with Ukraine, Azerbaijan can do whatever they like. It is their territory whether that is morally acceptable or not.


Another Soviet experiment in gifting borders gone awry. Why is Artshakh Azerbaijan's recognised territory? Because the Bolshevik Politburo decided that Artsakh should have an Armenian majority but be subject to Azerbaijan.

wiki wrote:After the Sovietization of Armenia and Azerbaijan, the Kavbiuro (Caucasian Bureau of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party (Bolshevik)) decided that Karabakh would fall under the Azerbaijan SSR with broad regional autonomy, with the administrative centre in the city of Shusha (the administrative center was later moved to Stepanakert).[70] The oblast's borders were drawn to include Armenian villages and to exclude as much as possible Azerbaijani villages.[71] The resulting district ensured an Armenian majority.


Like with Crimea in Ukraine, when Soviets again decided to cut a piece of Russia and gift it to Ukraine, like with Bosnia and Kossovo in Serbia, when again Yugoslav communists cut away Serbian provinces. We see the same pattern again and again. Cutting away an ethnic-province & gifting it to another state in the false belief that this sort of entanglement will force them both to stay "together forever". The Soviet version of "divide & conquer" basically.
#15288794
noemon wrote:Another Soviet experiment in gifting borders gone awry. Why is Artshakh Azerbaijan's recognised territory? Because the Bolshevik Politburo decided that Artsakh should have an Armenian majority but be subject to Azerbaijan.



Like with Crimea in Ukraine, when Soviets again decided to cut a piece of Russia and gift it to Ukraine, like with Bosnia and Kossovo in Serbia, when again Yugoslav communists cut away Serbian provinces. We see the same pattern again and again. Cutting away an ethnic-province & gifting it to another state in the false belief that this sort of entanglement will force them both to stay "together forever". The Soviet version of "divide & conquer" basically.

And , in addition , it was as I posted before predicated upon the assumption that the union would remain perpetually indivisible. If the United States were to ever disintegrate , as unexpected as that might be, there could be similar conflict between the people of the former constituent states, especially given its history , however largely overlooked , of territorial disputes . For example, the Toledo War , Honey War , Pennamite-Yankee War , and the Walton War .
#15288816
Godstud wrote:If the West doesn't see any political or economic value they will sit around and do nothing. They would rather see people DIE than have it cost them any money or gain.

Ukraine is a prime example of this.

I was thinking that maybe if Kim Kardashian were to call for action it might have some sway. I was wondering if she would possibly speak out on this, as she is both of Armenian descent , and had previously called for recognition of the prior Armenian Genocide . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Kardashian#Armenian_genocide_recognition And as it turns out , she has spoken out against the aggression carried out by the corrupt dictatorship in Azerbaijan . https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/kim-kardashian-op-ed-joe-biden-armenian-genocide-azerbaijan-sanctions-1234820577/ , https://lamag.com/news/kim-kardashian-cher-armenian-white-house-action The cry of "never again" must apply to all times and all people. Genocide must never be allowed to go forward. The international community must intervene to stop any further atrocity , and to safeguard the lives of the Armenian people. It is of worldwide humanitarian concern.
#15288864
Guardian wrote:Almost all ethnic Armenians have left Nagorno-Karabakh

Almost all ethnic Armenians have left Nagorno-Karabakh since Azerbaijan attacked and ordered the breakaway region’s militants to disarm, the Armenian government said on Saturday.

Nazeli Baghdasaryan, the press secretary to Armenia’s prime minister, Nikol Pashinyan, said 100,417 people had arrived in Armenia from Nagorno-Karabakh, which had a population of about 120,000 before Azerbaijan reclaimed the region in a offensive last week.

A total of 21,043 vehicles had crossed the Hakari bridge, which links Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh, since last week, Baghdasaryan said. Some lined up for days because the winding mountain road that is the only route to Armenia became jammed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... azerbaijan


And its done.
#15288909
For those who are unfamiliar, there are several aspects to this.

In both 2021 and 2022 respectively, Azerbaijan went on two offensives in Republic of Armenia proper, occupying several hundred square km of land. In other words, there is already precedent for what is being described in the article.

Here is a map of that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia%E ... Crisis.svg

Furthermore, Azerbaijan is trying to create an extraterritorial corridor through Armenia's Syunik province (which is part of Armenia's internationally recognized borders), dubbed the so-called Zangezur corridor; in other words, a chunk of land seized from Armenia for the purposes of linking Azerbaijan with Nakhichevan and Turkey, providing an uninterrupted connection between Turkey-AZ-Russia.

Aliyev has already said Azerbaijan would use force to create this corridor through Armenia.

‘The creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We will be implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not’, Aliyev said during an interview with Azerbaijani Public TV. ‘If Armenia wants to, we will solve this issue more easily, if it does not, we will solve it by force.’

‘The Azerbaijani people are returning to the occupied Zangezur’, he said.

https://oc-media.org/aliyev-threatens-t ... -by-force/


He goes into how it this piece of land (internationally recognized as Armenia) belongs to Azerbaijan, how it is theirs, and how they're "going to go back".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western ... st_concept)

“West Zangazur [Syunik] is our historical land,” he said in a July 14 speech opening a new housing complex for families of soldiers killed in last year’s war. He argued that the territory is rightfully Azerbaijani and that Azerbaijanis have the right to “return” there – without specifying what exactly “return” entails. He stopped short of making an explicit territorial claim, but made vague threats to Armenia.

“The Soviet government tore Zangazur apart from Azerbaijan and handed it over to Armenia. It is relatively recent history – 101 years ago. So why should we say that this didn't happen? Why? We are telling the truth. It is the land of our ancestors: the whole of Zangazur – East and West Zangazur. In Armenia they now say that Ilham Aliyev is making territorial claims. If there is East Zangazur, then there is also West Zangazur. Yes, West Zangazur is our ancestral land. I said that we have to return there,” he said. “We will and we are already returning there. No one can stop us.” And much more in that vein.

https://eurasianet.org/whats-the-future ... in-armenia


And this is not new, high-ranking officials have always stated their intents about Armenia. For example, in 2004, Colonel Ramiz Melikov, the chief spokesman for Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry said:

“Within the next 25-years there will exist no state of Armenia in the South Caucasus,” Colonel Ramiz Melikov, the chief spokesman for Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry, said, according to the Baku daily “Zerkalo.” “Those people have done so many nasty things to their neighbors that they have no right to live in this region.”

“Modern Armenia is built on historical Azerbaijani lands,” he added. “I think that in 25-30 years’ times its territory will again come under Azerbaijan’s jurisdiction.”

https://www.azatutyun.am/a/1574224.html


Followed by justificaitons as to why they deserve to be on the land but not Armenians, because apparently we don't exist, like this quote from Aliyev again in 2021:

This shows yet again that the Armenian propaganda was based on lies during the occupation, during the war and in the post-war period. Their history is false, their past is false, their statehood is false and their mythology is false. Armenians of the world have simply created the false impression in the countries where they live that the Armenian people have allegedly lived on these lands for centuries. The Armenians were resettled to Hadrut from Iran in the 19th century. Everyone knows that. There were no Armenians here prior to that. They have falsified history and are still falsifying the present-day realities.

https://en.trend.az/azerbaijan/politics/3496311.html
#15288915
This is rather complex conflict. The territory is recognized as Azerbaijan's and was occupied by Armenia. Hundreds of thousands have been displaced on both sides as a consequence of 3 wars since 1988.
#15288918
It is not complex.

1) Jurisdiction does not give nations the right to commit ethnic cleansing within their borders. Past crimes against humanity do not justify present or future ones.

2) Southern Armenia is not the sovereign territory of Azerbaijan.
#15288919
Fasces wrote:It is not complex.

1) Jurisdiction does not give nations the right to commit ethnic cleansing within their borders. Past crimes against humanity do not justify present or future ones.

2) Southern Armenia is not the sovereign territory of Azerbaijan.

As for point 1, Armenia occupied large areas of Azerbaijan itself in 1988 by military force, and engaged in ethnic cleansing of Azeris. Hence the alleged ‘complexity’ of the issue.

And as for point 2, I think @Rugoz was referring to Nagorno-Karabakh rather than the ‘Zangezur corridor’.

The basic problem is that Armenia and Azerbaijan seem to be entangled with each other, just as Russia and Ukraine are and just as many of the Balkan states are. During Soviet times, this didn’t matter of course, but as soon as Gorbachev lifted the repressive hand of Soviet power, the genie was out of the bottle….
By Rich
#15288920
Deutschmania wrote:Genocide must never be allowed to go forward.

No one cares about genocide.

However a lot of people care very deeply about pretending to care about genocide. Once Russia and Georgia fell out, the eradication of Armenia by the Muslims was just a matter of time.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#15288921
Fasces wrote:It is not complex.

1) Jurisdiction does not give nations the right to commit ethnic cleansing within their borders. Past crimes against humanity do not justify present or future ones.


Does Azerbaijan ethnically cleanse the region or are people fleeing in (maybe justified) expectation thereof? Either way, I do think Azerbaijan should be held accountable (sanctions etc.) for anything it does in that direction. My question is rather: If a region has been ethnically cleansed in decades of war, on both sides, can the legitimate owner still be determined by who lives there?

Fasces wrote:2) Southern Armenia is not the sovereign territory of Azerbaijan.


If Azerbaijan invades Southern Armenia, Armenia should get all the help it needs to fight it back.
#15288927
Rugoz wrote:Does Azerbaijan ethnically cleanse the region or are people fleeing in (maybe justified) expectation thereof?


There is no difference, legally speaking. Intimidation which causes people to flee is no different than violence which causes people to flee.

Rugoz wrote:If a region has been ethnically cleansed in decades of war, on both sides, can the legitimate owner still be determined by who lives there?


Potemkin wrote:As for point 1, Armenia occupied large areas of Azerbaijan itself in 1988 by military force, and engaged in ethnic cleansing of Azeris. Hence the alleged ‘complexity’ of the issue.


It is exceedinly simple - the people living there today, are the victims of the crime today. A genocide in 1990 doesn't justify a counter-genocide in 2023.

This Calvinist BS that a victim is perpetually a victim, and an aggressor perpetually an agressor doesn't mean a thing to the family of Armenians that have been living in Karaback for generations and which did not participate in Armenia's historical crimes but is now losing their home.

The issue is only 'complicated' when it is politically convenient - Europe is increasing its oil and gas purchases from Azerbaijan as they decouple from Russia and Turkey has its own issues, while being a NATO member. It is easy to look for excuses for why the West is justified to ignore the unfolding situation in the Caucausus. It didn't stop them from preaching a position of moral superiority in comparable situations such as Kurdistan or Kosovo. Complexity here is just a synonym for hypocrisy.

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